1st & 2nd Generation Canadian Citizen Questions

[stickyfingers85]

Hello

New to this forum but already found it very helpful, but I have a few questions relating to my mother and I being 1st and 2nd generation Canadians born outside Canada. Hope you don't mind.

First, a little background to make it easier:

Grandfather: Canadian Citizen, Born in Canada in the 1910's (don't have exact date to hand), fought in the Canadian Armed Forces abroad (UK, France, Italy).
Grandmother: British Citizen, married my Grandfather in the UK and lived for a time in Canada with him, before eventually moving back to UK with him to settle.

My Uncle: Born in Canada, has duel Canadian and British Citizenship
My Mother: Born in the UK. She has always lived in the UK and never looked into if she was a Canadian Citizen or not

My Sister: Born in UK in 1987
Me: Born in UK in 1985

Now a few questions:

• Is my Mother automatically classed as a Canadian Citizen? Is she entitled to this or does she have to apply? Is she classed as 1st generation born outside?
• I am aware that the new rule states that its only 1st generation, but there appears to be an exception that if the Grandfather was in the armed forces, the 2nd generation is a citizen. Does that mean I am or can apply to be a Canadian Citizen? My sister also.
• If any of us are Canadian, or can apply to be a citizen, are we entitled to a Canadian Passport?
• How do we apply? Are we applying for proof of citizenship only?
• I have been reading the document checklist, but I was confused as to which Scenario my Mother or I would be applying under?
• If my mother is, or can apply to be a Canadian Citizen, can her husband, my father, also apply as the spouse of a Canadian?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice you can give, it really is appreciated.

Andrew

 

[links18]

Your mom is already Canadian. She needs to apply for a citizenship certificate in order to have definitive proof. Then she can apply for a passport. Her spouse has no claim to Canadian citizenship on the basis of marriage. You and your siblings have no claim to Canadian citizenship, unless your Canadian grandfather was in foreign posted crown service at the time you born. (I'll have to double check that last part).

 

[alphazip]

Your mother is a Canadian citizen...1st generation born abroad. She can apply for a citizenship certificate (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/certif.asp) and then a passport.

You don't give your mother's date of birth, but it's obvious from your date of birth that she was born before 1977. That being the case, her birth would have had to be registered with Canadian authorities for her to have been considered a Canadian citizen when you were born. Since I don't think it was, you were not born to a Canadian citizen and therefore were not already a citizen in 2009, when Canadian citizenship was limited to the first generation born abroad. So, unfortunately, neither you nor your sister have a claim to Canadian citizenship.

Also, there is (SHOULD BE "WAS") no exception for people who had a grandfather in the armed forces, and your father does not gain Canadian citizenship by being married to your mother. Your mother can sponsor your father for permanent residence in Canada if they show that they plan to move here.

 

[links18]

Your mother is a Canadian citizen...1st generation born abroad. She can apply for a citizenship certificate (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/certif.asp) and then a passport.

You don't give your mother's date of birth, but it's obvious from your date of birth that she was born before 1977. That being the case, her birth would have had to be registered with Canadian authorities for her to have been considered a Canadian citizen when you were born. Since I don't think it was, you were not born to a Canadian citizen and therefore were not already a citizen in 2009, when Canadian citizenship was limited to the first generation born abroad. So, unfortunately, neither you nor your sister have a claim to Canadian citizenship.

Also, there is no exception for people who had a grandfather in the armed forces, and your father does not gain Canadian citizenship by being married to your mother. Your mother can sponsor your father for permanent residence in Canada if they show that they plan to move here.

Is there an exception for the grandchildren of foreign posted crown servants at time of birth or is that British nationality law I am thinking of?

 

[alphazip]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3989008&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=2&File=27

"Bill C-37 changed the way citizenship by descent can be passed on to children of Canadian parents born abroad. Under the new subsection 3(3) of the Citizenship Act, citizens may not pass on citizenship to their children of the second or subsequent generation who are born abroad. An exception is for persons born to a Canadian parent who is working abroad as part of or with the Canadian armed forces, for the federal government or for a provincial government, except if the parent was hired locally (subsection 3(5))."

So, for example, if a Canadian soldier who was himself born abroad, is stationed in (say) the Middle East and has a child there, that child would be a Canadian citizen, despite being the second generation born abroad.

 

[links18]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3989008&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=2&File=27

"Bill C-37 changed the way citizenship by descent can be passed on to children of Canadian parents born abroad. Under the new subsection 3(3) of the Citizenship Act, citizens may not pass on citizenship to their children of the second or subsequent generation who are born abroad. An exception is for persons born to a Canadian parent who is working abroad as part of or with the Canadian armed forces, for the federal government or for a provincial government, except if the parent was hired locally (subsection 3(5))."

So, for example, if a Canadian soldier who was himself born abroad, is stationed in (say) the Middle East and has a child there, that child would be a Canadian citizen, despite being the second generation born abroad.

Ah, so the exception hinges on the status of the parent not the grand parent.

 

[alphazip]

Is there an exception for the grandchildren of foreign posted crown servants at time of birth or is that British nationality law I am thinking of?

As I recall, there were rules that enabled the grandchildren of crown servants to be registered as British. Not sure if they continue to this day.

However, since citizenship by descent wasn't limited in Canada until 2009, I think the new rule I referred to in the previous post is all we have here.

 

[Bs65]

So bill C24 did not affect this at all either as it refers to a grandparent still serving abroad I think which is unlikely in this case ? The wording as usual is pretty vague extracted from here http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/overview/hist.asp so is pretty confusing.

Bill C-24 also extended the Crown servant exception to the first-generation limit to citizenship by descent to include the grandchildren of serving Crown servants. This means that citizenship was extended to a child of a Canadian parent who was born or adopted outside Canada to a serving Crown servant (i.e., the child’s grandparent who was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration, or the public service of a province or territory, otherwise than as a locally engaged person, at the time of birth or adoption of the child’s parent). This change came into force on June 19, 2014, retroactively to April 17, 2009, the date where the first-generation limit was first introduced.

Ultimately until the mother claims citizenship successfully the rest depends on interpretation even though on face of it 2nd generation does not qualify based on previous posts.

Personally I have to agree with the objective of the bill(s) to resolve the situation whereby citizenship by descent can be passed down through generations without any necessity to reside in or contribute to the country when people actually in the country spend years contributing to achieve the same thing.

 

[stickyfingers85]

Thank you very much for all the replies so far, very helpful.

We are going to go ahead and apply for the certificate for my Mother.

I was confused with regard to my Sister and I being a citizen by this statement:

at the time of their Canadian parent’s birth or adoption, the person’s Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or public service of a province or territory, other than as a locally engaged person (a crown servant).

To me that reads that if my Grandfather served in the forces abroad, then i can also claim? Or i'm reading it wrong? Sorry

 

[alphazip]

So bill C24 did not affect this at all either as it refers to a grandparent still serving abroad I think which is unlikely in this case ? The wording as usual is pretty vague extracted from here http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/overview/hist.asp so is pretty confusing.

Bill C-24 also extended the Crown servant exception to the first-generation limit to citizenship by descent to include the grandchildren of serving Crown servants. This means that citizenship was extended to a child of a Canadian parent who was born or adopted outside Canada to a serving Crown servant (i.e., the child’s grandparent who was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration, or the public service of a province or territory, otherwise than as a locally engaged person, at the time of birth or adoption of the child’s parent). This change came into force on June 19, 2014, retroactively to April 17, 2009, the date where the first-generation limit was first introduced.

Ultimately until the mother claims citizenship successfully the rest depends on interpretation even though on face of it 2nd generation does not qualify based on previous posts.

Personally I have to agree with the objective of the bill(s) to resolve the situation whereby citizenship by descent can be passed down through generations without any necessity to reside in or contribute to the country when people actually in the country spend years contributing to achieve the same thing.

What I would take this to mean is this: John has a son, Tom, while serving Canada abroad. Tom grows up abroad and then has a daughter, June, also born abroad. Because June's grandfather was serving Canada abroad when her father was born, she is a Canadian citizen.

 

[alphazip]

Thank you very much for all the replies so far, very helpful.

We are going to go ahead and apply for the certificate for my Mother.

I was confused with regard to my Sister and I being a citizen by this statement:

at the time of their Canadian parent’s birth or adoption, the person’s Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or public service of a province or territory, other than as a locally engaged person (a crown servant).

To me that reads that if my Grandfather served in the forces abroad, then i can also claim? Or i'm reading it wrong? Sorry

You have a point, and additional research may be necessary. Was your grandfather serving in the Canadian Armed Forces and stationed in Britain when your mother was born? What years are we talking about?

 

[Bs65]

The key is actively serving abroad when the mother was born not just having served in past tense. The dates for serving and when mother was born are so far missing from the story and any application will need accurate dates and documentation in support.

C24 like everything is very confusing as could imply only applies to a 2nd generation child born post 2009 to a Canadian parent whose own parent was serving abroad when they were born.

Ultimately the rules are so complex to interpret based on circumstances best to seek professional advice as opposed to a forum. There are even rules about claiming citizenship by a certain age as well as being a citizen at time of birth which may unravel this scenario.

If that desparate to obtain citizenship then the cost is justifiable to at least resolve one way or the other.

Even if all this is a viable option there will likely be pressure in any application to demonstrate intention to reside in Canada not just take the benefit of citizenship and stay in UK so be prepared for that as well given there are plenty of people spending years of struggle to qualify who see citizenship as a priviledge not a right.

 

[alphazip]

The key is actively serving abroad when the mother was born not just having served in past tense. The dates for serving and when mother was born are so far missing from the story and any application will need accurate dates and documentation in support.

C24 like everything is very confusing as could imply only applies to a 2nd generation child born post 2009 to a Canadian parent whose own parent was serving abroad when they were born.

Ultimately the rules are so complex to interpret based on circumstances best to seek professional advice as opposed to a forum. There are even rules about claiming citizenship by a certain age as well as being a citizen at time of birth which may unravel this scenario.

If that desparate to obtain citizenship then the cost is justifiable to at least resolve one way or the other.

Even if all this is a viable option there will likely be pressure in any application to demonstrate intention to reside in Canada not just take the benefit of citizenship and stay in UK so be prepared for that as well given there are plenty of people spending years of struggle to qualify who see citizenship as a priviledge not a right.

Yes, it probably does only apply to post-April 17, 2009 scenarios, as stated here: "This change came into force on June 19, 2014, retroactively to April 17, 2009, the date where the first-generation limit was first introduced."

"Professional advice" would likely cost much more than simply applying for proof of citizenship and seeing what happens. But, yes, for there to be any chance of success, the grandfather must have been serving Canada when the OP's mother was born, not just anytime in the past.

As to the intention to reside in Canada, that's not required at all for a citizen by descent. Either a person qualifies "by descent" or he/she doesn't. I'm a citizen by descent and I was never asked if I planned to move to Canada...though I did.

 

[links18]

So, I was right originally except that the crown service must be active at the birth of the child not the grandchild?

 

[Bs65]

The more dig into this the more complex it seems to get as there is some implication that the mothers birth whenever that was needed to be registered not just as UK but also Canada. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/proof/registration.asp

As has been recommended the mother should just apply as we could all over think this continuosly finding more contradicting documentation in the bowels of the government websites.