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“Proof showing that you meet the residency obligation…” now mandatory?

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
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Unless you're unilaterally entitled to change and interpret the law, the text is about number of days spent in the country. End of. By burdening the applicant to "prove" their residency obligation, the system is offloading responsibility they get paid to perform. I don't need to prove I'm in the country.
Please show me where the text of law puts the burden of proof on the government in this context.

Because I don't think that's true.

And if it's not, then: yes, you do need to prove you were in the country (or at least government can require you to demonstrate it).

As I said: the point of the government program is to bias selection in favour of residency in order to meet specific public policy objectives. Within that context, and subject to reasonable limits, I'm okay with government exercising bias in administration of permanent residency to make things a bit easier for those who are clearly residing. This happens all the time in administration of public programs: those who have better documents, as reasonably required, get processed more easily and quickly.

Anyway: you asked for 'thoughts', you're free to disagree with mine. But don't be angry and accusatory when you ask for thoughts and others disagree with you. I in no way claimed that I am 'unilaterally' entitled to either change or interpret the law, and it's silly to accuse me of that.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,245
8,861
Do you guys think the Case Officer sees on their system that I have been Scheduled for Oath ceremony (actual update on citizenship tracker was June 11th) and decided to halt the PR Card application? I must say that I had included a cover letter in my PR card renewal application that I have my citizenship application ongoing and i need urgent processing to meet my August trip. As when I submitted the PR card renewal application, citizenship application processing was still tagged as 22/23 months.

I just want to be sure this will not conflict with finalizing my Oath taking on Monday. I still plan to let the Oath clerk know during ceremony registration that I still have a pending PR Card renewal application.
My guess and suggestion on how to approach: I don't think you need to worry so much. Just tell the truth: you applied for a PR card renewal, you haven't received it yet, you've received contradictory information from IRCC about where it is and whether or not it's cancelled, and now you just don't know. (obv explain you tried to cancel to save the money but now you don't know any more).

Important point will be: if you get the updated card after the ceremony, you will return or destroy it (whatever IRCC wants), and you understand you're not allowed to retain a PR card as a citizen.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
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The Law is Clear, PRs Have the Burden of Proving RO Compliance By Balance of Probabilities:

Unless you're unilaterally entitled to change and interpret the law, the text is about number of days spent in the country. End of. By burdening the applicant to "prove" their residency obligation, the system is offloading responsibility they get paid to perform. I don't need to prove I'm in the country. Unless I climbed a wall or a swam through a burgeoning sea, CBSA let me in. Check with them, and figure it out. Either that, or stop taxing the people to pay salary to useless inefficient process runners
Burden of proving compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is an easy one. As a matter of law, the burden is on a PR to prove they have met the Residency Obligation.

While it has been stated often, very often, in multiple ways, here's one of the more recent direct and simple versions:
The [permanent residents appealing IRCC decision] bear the burden of establishing, on a balance of probabilities, that they were physically present in Canada for at least 730 days during the relevant period, from February 24, 2016, to February 24, 2021. The Appellants have not met their burden of proof.
See OFFICIALLY published IAD decision for Mianoor v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2023 CanLII 39047 (CA IRB) . . . copy can be seen here: https://canlii.ca/t/jx3sf

Similarly, illustrating there is nothing new about the PR's burden of proof in Mianoor, see Rohani v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 26503 (CA IRB), https://canlii.ca/t/h3m71

[6] A permanent resident must comply with a residency obligation by being physically present in Canada for 730 days of a five-year period.
[7] The [PR appealing] bears the burden of proof. To allow this appeal the appellant must satisfy the Panel on a balance of probabilities that the immigration officer’s decision was wrong in law or fact, or mixed law and fact [going on to add likewise as to proof of H&C reasons justifying retention of PR despite a breach]. (Emphasis added, just in case some have difficulty reading "the text" ," noting by the way that case law is law in Canada.)​

In this Rohani case the PR claimed to have been present in Canada for 743 days. She claimed there was an error in the calculation by the immigration officer. The IAD stated:
[13] Even if it was a mistake and she in fact was in Canada for 743 days and therefore met the residency obligation as alleged, she provided no corroborating evidence to support this position.
Those who pay attention to how the burden of proof works will readily recognize this as a prime example. Even if she met the RO (if, say, this could be seen in a crystal ball and God spoke it was so), she failed to meet the burden of proving she did. Decision terminating her status for a breach of the RO was valid in law.

BESIDES . . . spoiler alert . . . yeah, THE TEXT of the statute itself imposes the burden of proof on the PR:

Getting back to "the text" of the law, just the statutory text alone clearly places the burden of proving compliance on the PR. Section 28(2)(b) IRPA states:
(2) The following provisions govern the residency obligation under subsection (1):​
(b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination​
(i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;​
(ii) if they have been a permanent resident for five years or more, that they have met the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately before the examination;​

See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-5.html#h-274598

Just to be clear (in case there is any difficulty actually reading and understanding the text), if a PR is subject to examination to determine if they have complied with the PR RO, the PR must demonstrate (establish, prove) they have been present in Canada for at least 730 days in the previous five years. That will be "sufficient" for purposes of complying with the RO. The Federal Court and IAD panels have universally interpreted and applied this to mean the PR's burden is to prove compliance by a balance of probabilities (so PRs do not need to meet any of the more difficult standards of proof, like beyond a reasonable doubt, or by clear and convincing evidence; for those who seem to rely on American principles, the by a balance of probabilities is basically equivalent to the standard in the U.S. known as "the preponderance of evidence").

The fact that IRCC and CBSA do not rely on CBSA travel history to show a PR met the RO, but rather uses the CBSA travel history to cross-check what a PR reports and potentially use it to show discrepancies, has been widely discussed in this and in the Citizenship forum. Many advance strong arguments why the government could, and advocate the government should, as a matter of how things actually work they simply do not.

So . . .

"Unless I climbed a wall or a swam through a burgeoning sea, CBSA let me in. Check with them, and figure it out."​

Not how it works. How it works is CBSA and IRCC rely on the ONE and ONLY person, the only one in the whole world, who was for sure there each and every time the PR entered or exited Canada, the one person who for sure could make and keep an absolutely complete record of all entries and exits. Yep: you, the PR. (Like it or not, that's how it works.)

Of course they will not just take your word for it. They cross-check all sorts of information. Including CBSA entry records. Note: last I saw, unless the PR's case has become the subject of an investigation, for purposes of verifying RO compliance it appears they are still only considering entry records, NOT exit records, like those based on land border crossings into the U.S., captured as entries into the U.S. by U.S. authorities.
 

mayple

Star Member
Dec 30, 2017
195
56
Not how it works. How it works is CBSA and IRCC rely on the ONE and ONLY person, the only one in the whole world, who was for sure there each and every time the PR entered or exited Canada, the one person who for sure could make and keep an absolutely complete record of all entries and exits. Yep: you, the PR. (Like it or not, that's how it works.)

Of course they will not just take your word for it. They cross-check all sorts of information. Including CBSA entry records. Note: last I saw, unless the PR's case has become the subject of an investigation, for purposes of verifying RO compliance it appears they are still only considering entry records, NOT exit records, like those based on land border crossings into the U.S., captured as entries into the U.S. by U.S. authorities.
1. Highlighted text should explain the emoji:eek:
2. You should make genuine attempts at being concise.You won't draw any audience will lengthy opinion pieces on the forum

Bottomline: IRCC and CBSA must work in tandem to confirm entry and exit records to determine "physical presence". A signed application is a testament that the dates provided by the applicant are true and accurate (and is what gets verified by IRCC against CBSA records). End of story for PR renewal. I don't need a job, I don't need to draw benefits, I don't need a car, I don't need a rental or a mortgage in my name. Heck I may not even need a bank account in the 2 years that I spend to meet my physical residency obligation. And if I don't need any of that, I don't have any "proof". Yet, I legally entered the country and stayed for the minimum duration. Case closed. In the event you can't verify the dates, you can ask any number of items as a proof to verify before deciding on the case.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
Bottomline: IRCC and CBSA must work in tandem to confirm entry and exit records to determine "physical presence". A signed application is a testament that the dates provided by the applicant are true and accurate (and is what gets verified by IRCC against CBSA records). End of story for PR renewal.
No.

As the TEXT of the applicable statute prescribes, PRs have burden of demonstrating they are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

The Federal Court and IAD, as clearly stated in scores of officially published decisions, have said this means the PR has the burden of proving they meet the PR RO on a balance of probabilities. (Similar standard of proof imposed on PRs applying for citizenship, as to physical presence.)

Oft and well documented experience, extensively corroborated by IAD decisions, illustrates that IRCC and CBSA will cross-check the PR's information against sources to verify its completeness and accuracy. The focus of this verification is identifying whether there is what has been called, for decades, "reason-to-question-residency." If the cross-checked information is consistent with the PR's accounting, allowing for minor mistakes that do not indicate a failure to comply, or discrepancies otherwise not raising concerns, IRCC does not question the PR's residency. If, in the cross-check screening, IRCC finds inconsistencies, discrepancies, or omissions rising to the level of "reason-to-question-residency," the PR will get an opportunity to more fully prove they are in compliance with the RO. This is where the formalities of the burden of proof, ON the PR, are most tested.

What many might not realize is that if in the cross-checking process IRCC finds information that shows the PR was IN Canada during a period of time the PR reported they were outside Canada, this does NOT necessarily mean IRCC will give the PR more credit based on that information. (Credit for that period may or may not be allowed, depending on various factors, including the PR's explanation, and not the least of which is IRCC's assessment of the PR's credibility.)
Example: In a citizenship case, rather than as to a PR card or PR TD application, IRCC discovered information the PR was most likely IN Canada during a period the PR reported being outside Canada, leading IRCC to conclude the PR's travel history was not accurate or complete, and subsequently concluded the PR failed to adequately prove dates present in Canada (on a balance of probabilities), and denied citizenship; Federal Court agreed and upheld.​

Thus: If information in other sources, including but not limited to CBSA records, corroborates the PR's information, both in terms of completeness and accuracy, IRCC generally relies on the PR's account. Otherwise, if other sources indicate a reason-to-question-residency, the PR will be required to more fully prove they meet the RO.

By the way . . .
End of story for PR renewal.
PR does NOT get renewed. PR status does not expire.
 
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Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
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Yeah, no. You clearly have a bias against those not in a position

Yeah, sounds like a biased perspective. Not everyone with a PR is in a position to "reside, work, study and participate in Canadian society" for any number of reasons. Unless you're unilaterally entitled to change and interpret the law, the text is about number of days spent in the country. End of. By burdening the applicant to "prove" their residency obligation, the system is offloading responsibility they get paid to perform. I don't need to prove I'm in the country. Unless I climbed a wall or a swam through a burgeoning sea, CBSA let me in. Check with them, and figure it out. Either that, or stop taxing the people to pay salary to useless inefficient process runners

The drivel people post sometimes is mind numbing
 

shabou

Full Member
Feb 8, 2019
48
5
Hi, from your experience, please do you think that the ONTARIO PHOTO CARD can be considered as one of the 2 pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada?? Thank you for your help.
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Hi, from your experience, please do you think that the ONTARIO PHOTO CARD can be considered as one of the 2 pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada?? Thank you for your help.
Don't see how that would show residency, only identity.

Do you have bank statements showing `active' activity near your home? Like ATM usage, local merchants, etc., versus online shopping? This would show that you were `active' in your area, right? If so, send a couple (a few years apart) along with something else from the list.
 

shabou

Full Member
Feb 8, 2019
48
5
Don't see how that would show residency, only identity.

Do you have bank statements showing `active' activity near your home? Like ATM usage, local merchants, etc., versus online shopping? This would show that you were `active' in your area, right? If so, send a couple (a few years apart) along with something else from the list.
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Hi, thank you for your response.
In fact, I have the below documents; from your experience what can be considered as pieces of pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada??
My framework: 2018-2023
2018 to mid-2020 address is different from mid 2020 to 2023.
1- ONTARIO PHOTO CARD
(the card has my present address on it)
2- Confirmation of occupency status from my landlord (I am the leaseholder; but there is names of others occupant who are my kids and husband)
3- Tenant and renter insurance on my name
4- Rent account statment for 2020 and 2023 (rend I paid in 2020; 2023)
5- Canada revenue notice of assessment for 2020
6- T2202 for 2019
7- Ontario heatlh card
8- Club membership: I have the CAA card
9- Student ID Card
10- My diploma from my college (proof of school attendance)

Thank you for your help.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
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Hi, from your experience, please do you think that the ONTARIO PHOTO CARD can be considered as one of the 2 pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada?? Thank you for your help.
I ASSUME you have NOT been outside Canada for more than 1095 days in the preceding five years. That is, that you meet the PR Residency Obligation based on actual physical presence IN Canada.

If this assumption is correct, sure, an Ontario Photo card should suffice as a "piece of evidence that shows residency" in Canada.

That said, it appears you have plenty of other evidence you could easily include with the application, so it would make sense to submit two items that are more specifically tied to showing the fact of residency.

In fact, I have the below documents; from your experience what can be considered as pieces of pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada??
My framework: 2018-2023
2018 to mid-2020 address is different from mid 2020 to 2023.
1- ONTARIO PHOTO CARD
(the card has my present address on it)
2- Confirmation of occupency status from my landlord (I am the leaseholder; but there is names of others occupant who are my kids and husband)
3- Tenant and renter insurance on my name
4- Rent account statment for 2020 and 2023 (rend I paid in 2020; 2023)
5- Canada revenue notice of assessment for 2020
6- T2202 for 2019
7- Ontario heatlh card
8- Club membership: I have the CAA card
9- Student ID Card
10- My diploma from my college (proof of school attendance)

Thank you for your help.
Any of these could be one of the two pieces of evidence submitted . . . so long as they in fact relate to a period of time you were actually residing in Canada.

Note: submitting the document constitutes a representation that it is evidence showing residency in Canada, so whatever is submitted should be, in fact, related to a period of time the PR was actually residing in Canada. Thus, for example, an individual could be issued a CRA Notice of Assessment for a year in which they had Canadian income, during a year they were not actually residing in Canada; submitting that NoA as evidence showing residency, during a time the PR was not actually residing in Canada, would be misleading, at the least, potentially misrepresentation.
 

Amrinder Singh1986

Full Member
Aug 9, 2017
40
0
Regarding Residency obligation - Can someone please help me here

Supporting documents showing that you meet the residency obligation
You must provide copies of 2 pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada in the five (5) years immediately before the application, such as:
  • employment records or pay stubs; - Can we upload T4's for 5 years ?
  • bank statements; - Since it takes time to get bank statements from Bank for 5 years, online i can get maximum for 18 months only - should i upload for 18 months ?
  • Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) Notice of Assessment for the five (5) years immediately before the application - Yes i got them
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,245
8,861
Regarding Residency obligation - Can someone please help me here

Supporting documents showing that you meet the residency obligation
You must provide copies of 2 pieces of evidence that can show residency in Canada in the five (5) years immediately before the application, such as:
  • employment records or pay stubs; - Can we upload T4's for 5 years ?
  • bank statements; - Since it takes time to get bank statements from Bank for 5 years, online i can get maximum for 18 months only - should i upload for 18 months ?
  • Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) Notice of Assessment for the five (5) years immediately before the application - Yes i got them
Do not over interpret: IRCC asks for EVIDENCE of residency, and gives examples. They ask for two repeat two pieces of such evidence.

Yes, a couple of notices of assessment and/or a couple of T4s should be enough.

While they may refer to PROOF, they ask for evidence. Just provide the evidence, as suggested, in the quantities requested.

If they want more, they'll ask for it.
 

shabou

Full Member
Feb 8, 2019
48
5
I ASSUME you have NOT been outside Canada for more than 1095 days in the preceding five years. That is, that you meet the PR Residency Obligation based on actual physical presence IN Canada.

If this assumption is correct, sure, an Ontario Photo card should suffice as a "piece of evidence that shows residency" in Canada.

That said, it appears you have plenty of other evidence you could easily include with the application, so it would make sense to submit two items that are more specifically tied to showing the fact of residency.



Any of these could be one of the two pieces of evidence submitted . . . so long as they in fact relate to a period of time you were actually residing in Canada.

Note: submitting the document constitutes a representation that it is evidence showing residency in Canada, so whatever is submitted should be, in fact, related to a period of time the PR was actually residing in Canada. Thus, for example, an individual could be issued a CRA Notice of Assessment for a year in which they had Canadian income, during a year they were not actually residing in Canada; submitting that NoA as evidence showing residency, during a time the PR was not actually residing in Canada, would be misleading, at the least, potentially misrepresentation.
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Thank you for your response.
My cousin has TWO Ontario Photo Card: the first one has his first address on it.The second one has his new address on it (in fact, he received the second with his new health card....I guest they automatically process his Ontario ID with his health card since his address has been changed). My question, please: do you think (from your experience) those TWO Ontario Photo card should suffice as a "piece of evidence that shows residency" in Canada.
Regards,
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
My cousin has TWO Ontario Photo Card: the first one has his first address on it.The second one has his new address on it (in fact, he received the second with his new health card....I guest they automatically process his Ontario ID with his health card since his address has been changed). My question, please: do you think (from your experience) those TWO Ontario Photo card should suffice as a "piece of evidence that shows residency" in Canada.
Easy answer, but NOT based on personal experience. Note, for PRs meeting the RO based on presence in Canada, IRCC has only been requiring PRs provide two pieces of evidence with a PR card application for just the last two to four months, so virtually no one has any personal experience, yet, in how this is applied. That said, the instructions are straight-forward, and the answer to this is easy . . . so easy, and obvious, to be honest I wonder if the question is genuine (sorry, but, yeah, cannot help but wonder) . . . but will leave that aside for now.

Short, easy answer: either one could be submitted as a piece of evidence showing residency in Canada when submitted with some other piece of evidence also showing residency in Canada. Submitting copy of the health card would be good as the other piece of evidence.

It warrants noting that a copy of the health card is, perhaps, better because it is "evidence [the PR] received benefits from Canadian government programs" (as in provincial health care coverage), which is explicitly one of the items listed in Appendix A in the instruction guide. Remember: When in doubt, follow the instructions; otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.
 

shabou

Full Member
Feb 8, 2019
48
5
Easy answer, but NOT based on personal experience. Note, for PRs meeting the RO based on presence in Canada, IRCC has only been requiring PRs provide two pieces of evidence with a PR card application for just the last two to four months, so virtually no one has any personal experience, yet, in how this is applied. That said, the instructions are straight-forward, and the answer to this is easy . . . so easy, and obvious, to be honest I wonder if the question is genuine (sorry, but, yeah, cannot help but wonder) . . . but will leave that aside for now.

Short, easy answer: either one could be submitted as a piece of evidence showing residency in Canada when submitted with some other piece of evidence also showing residency in Canada. Submitting copy of the health card would be good as the other piece of evidence.

It warrants noting that a copy of the health card is, perhaps, better because it is "evidence [the PR] received benefits from Canadian government programs" (as in provincial health care coverage), which is explicitly one of the items listed in Appendix A in the instruction guide. Remember: When in doubt, follow the instructions; otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.
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Thank you very much for your feedback. At the we plan to submit the below 3 documents:

1- copy of Ontario health card

2- copy of Ontario Photo Card (the card has my present address on it)
3- copy of electricity/hydro bill (utility bill): the bill has my name and present address on it

Thank you again for your feedback. Regards