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Citizenship application REFUSAL for residents in Quebec with PR obtained through EE

asiqur

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To give you further clarity @waitin_4_csq, based on my understanding, which could be seen as "hogwash" yet again, I have created a few example cases:
  • An EE applicant who applied for PR from Quebec (not through Quebec) showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but never moved out of the province. This is a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
  • An EE applicant who applied for PR from Quebec (not through Quebec) showed the intention to settle outside Quebec and moved out of the province. However, after a year or so, they found a better opportunity in Quebec and decided to move back. This can easily be defended against any misrepresentation claims, which may not even be made by IRCC because the applicant did fulfil the intent by moving out of the province and, as mentioned by @dpenabill (which I also agree with as it is the fact), the Charter gives you freedom to live and work anywhere in Canada (including Quebec).
  • An EE applicant who applied for PR and showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but landed in Quebec and settled in the province. This is also a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
  • An EE applicant who applied for PR through PNP from another province and showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but landed in or moved to Quebec and settled in the province. This is also a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
@dpenabill to confirm this, as they seem much more informed than I am. Goodluck!
 
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armoured

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To give you further clarity @waitin_4_csq, based on my understanding, which could be seen as "hogwash" yet again, I have created a few example cases:
To be clear and specific, here is the statement that I called hogwash:
If you're referring to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which also applies to permanent residents), that doesn't apply in the case of Quebec due to its "special status" in the Canadian Constitution.
You've made a blanket statement here that the Charter doesn't apply to Quebec. That is complete and utter hogwash, full on and undiluted. I think some of your other rather broad statements bordered on hogwash, for exaggerating the situation - but I didn't say so, and therefore I'm not going to litigate other people's chacartizations of your statements. At any rate: simple point, 'hogwash' was not meant to apply to everything you said - just those statements [that were hogwash.]

As for the overall situation: no limitation on charter rights in the main; what we have (in my view) is a well-known limitation with respect to non-permanent residents, and a requirement that those applying to become permanent residents not misrepresent. (Reminder: applicants misrepresenting to become a PR is not covered by charter rights.)

As noted by @dpenabill, though - there is at heart a matter of intent here, and intent is difficult to observe, and hence difficult to implement any kind of enforcement (except via inference). And without a different enforcement regime (rather than the 'light touch' of basically no checks), then the possibility, however remote, of potential retrospective enforcement is what is left. (And will likely be the subject of court challenges - to which have at it, I say - I'm no fan of this particular 'gotcha').

But yes, Charter rights still apply. If what you mean is that *to be absolutely safe* someone who wishes to exercise the charter right of freedom of movement in Canada should make sure that no such inference can be made - retrospectively - about their intent to settle outside Quebec not having been honoured. The best way to do this is to ... leave Quebec and reside somewhere else for several months at least, and document efforts to find work, etc. There can then be no question of intent - intent was shown.

As for your specific cases, my somewhat informed opinion is that there are distinctions that can be made here:
  • An EE applicant who applied for PR from Quebec (not through Quebec) showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but never moved out of the province. This is a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
    [*]An EE applicant who applied for PR from Quebec (not through Quebec) showed the intention to settle outside Quebec and moved out of the province. However, after a year or so, they found a better opportunity in Quebec and decided to move back. This can easily be defended against any misrepresentation claims, which may not even be made by IRCC because the applicant did fulfil the intent by moving out of the province and, as mentioned by @dpenabill (which I also agree with as it is the fact), the Charter gives you freedom to live and work anywhere in Canada (including Quebec).
    [*]An EE applicant who applied for PR and showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but landed in Quebec and settled in the province. This is also a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
    [*]An EE applicant who applied for PR through PNP from another province and showed the intention to settle outside Quebec but landed in or moved to Quebec and settled in the province. This is also a case where the applicant will most likely face deeper checks and a possible rejection of their Citizenship application, as well as revocation of their permanent residence.
    [*]

As an overall point, I do not have info on how likely someone is to face deeper checks etc. You've said 'most likely' in one case. I don't know that anyone has the empirical data to say. It seems to me that some programs are more demanding in terms of requirements to leave/reside in specific provinces, and these examples don't get into that. (Possibly that was intentional)

1. Possibly, yes. This leaves out whether there is supporting info that the individual attempted to find a way to live elsewhere, showing intent; travel and interviews would be a lot stronger than saying "I sent my resume out." (Personally I'd guess that there's more likelihood of inquiry into intent when someone was already living in Quebec and never attempted to move; it looks like the person tried to game the system by applying for a program where they met the requirements *by agreeing to do something they did not intend to do* - the very definition of misrepresentation, even if not often enforced.)
2. No case at all and no inquiry into facts likely; tax records and others will show the individual lived elsewhere. Clear intent shown. This shouldn't get more than a glance.
3. I don't see sufficient information here to decide - but if the individual both landed in Quebec and never left, even for interviews, etc. - not a very strong case. Could a lawyer make it work based on eg pre-landing behaviour? Perhaps.
4. You write "but landed in or moved to Quebec" - to me, too vague here. If you mean the person landed in vancouver and got a connecting flight to Montreal - bad fact pattern. If you mean landed in Calgary but after some months there got a great job offer in QC and job search showed no demand in Alberta - not likely a problem, intent clearly shown in support of case. Note this latter scenario - the person had no nexus in Quebec at all beforehand (that I can see).

A side note that we've referred to 'intent' here, and I'd suggest that there's positive and negative intent (my terminology). Positive intent - showing the applicant made an actual effort to attempt to live elsewhere - may be difficult to prove, and the paucity of evidence of positive intent may not be very prejudicial to the applicant. (A complete lack of any might be)

Negative intent: by this I mean evidence that would tend to show or underline that the individual was purposefully misleading IRCC (or related) and/or never had intent to live outside Quebec or attempt to. My guess is such evidence (even if inferred) is going to have more weight. We're not going to (likely) have eg correspondence stating baldly "I've no intent to ever leave hahaha those dupes in the govt, I've fooled them!". But some things - work contracts signed before becoming a PR, continuous employment with a single employer (before/after), leases in Quebec signed before even arriving in Canada, professional qualifications never pursued to allow work outside Quebec, etc - these might lead to inference of negative intent.

But overall I'd underline: not clear to me how many such cases there actually are, or even how often eg citizenship cases are subject to more scrutiny (resulting in delays anyway). I've no sense of how often this happens - and I don't trust anecdotes about "I heard about a guy who..." because such tales usually (in my experience) leave out the other side of the story - i.e. not many will relate how flagrantly they were out of line. (Their version of the defence is always going to be some vague "I looked for work eslewhere but ..." and there's no opportunity to ask factual questions about how much, did they travel, etc.)

Going back to the opening post in this thread:
I’m soon eligible for Canadian citizenship but have concerns about my citizenship application. I got PR through EE while living in Quebec, intending to move to Ontario after my employer agreed to transfer me. However, I was laid off 2 days after getting PR. Despite trying to find jobs outside Quebec, I stayed here, and was on EI for 8 months with no job, then I eventually returned to school for a master’s degree in Montreal, and never left the province since then.
Assuming there is some evidence about the potential job transfer/being laid off, I'd say this is more likely to be one where IRCC - if they inquire - is not going to pursue. The EI period provides some support, as well, as does the education - in my view - in that someone in both situations usually more open to moving (i.e. fairly likely that no decent opportunities came up, and the person may not have had resources to pursue more). Yes, that's my subjective interpretation, with only a couple minutes' reading; anyone can disagree with it. But I think IRCC wouldn't pursue because too much opening to challenge on any kind of judicial review ("I really tried, you think I stayed on EI because I wanted to, etc.") And of course we have to admit - this is assuming the fact pattern is true and doesn't omit anything important. (If IRCC were to look into it, I suspect they'd devote very little time to analysis and make a decision based on the very limited fact patterns - and a decision that at this point is only 'is it worth pursuing or not'. I know what my guess is on that.)

FWIW.
 
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Gurghum

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To be clear and specific, here is the statement that I called hogwash:


You've made a blanket statement here that the Charter doesn't apply to Quebec. That is complete and utter hogwash, full on and undiluted. I think some of your other rather broad statements bordered on hogwash, for exaggerating the situation - but I didn't say so, and therefore I'm not going to litigate other people's chacartizations of your statements. At any rate: simple point, 'hogwash' was not meant to apply to everything you said - just those statements [that were hogwash.]

As for the overall situation: no limitation on charter rights in the main; what we have (in my view) is a well-known limitation with respect to non-permanent residents, and a requirement that those applying to become permanent residents not misrepresent. (Reminder: applicants misrepresenting to become a PR is not covered by charter rights.)

As noted by @dpenabill, though - there is at heart a matter of intent here, and intent is difficult to observe, and hence difficult to implement any kind of enforcement (except via inference). And without a different enforcement regime (rather than the 'light touch' of basically no checks), then the possibility, however remote, of potential retrospective enforcement is what is left. (And will likely be the subject of court challenges - to which have at it, I say - I'm no fan of this particular 'gotcha').

But yes, Charter rights still apply. If what you mean is that *to be absolutely safe* someone who wishes to exercise the charter right of freedom of movement in Canada should make sure that no such inference can be made - retrospectively - about their intent to settle outside Quebec not having been honoured. The best way to do this is to ... leave Quebec and reside somewhere else for several months at least, and document efforts to find work, etc. There can then be no question of intent - intent was shown.

As for your specific cases, my somewhat informed opinion is that there are distinctions that can be made here:

As an overall point, I do not have info on how likely someone is to face deeper checks etc. You've said 'most likely' in one case. I don't know that anyone has the empirical data to say. It seems to me that some programs are more demanding in terms of requirements to leave/reside in specific provinces, and these examples don't get into that. (Possibly that was intentional)

1. Possibly, yes. This leaves out whether there is supporting info that the individual attempted to find a way to live elsewhere, showing intent; travel and interviews would be a lot stronger than saying "I sent my resume out." (Personally I'd guess that there's more likelihood of inquiry into intent when someone was already living in Quebec and never attempted to move; it looks like the person tried to game the system by applying for a program where they met the requirements *by agreeing to do something they did not intend to do* - the very definition of misrepresentation, even if not often enforced.)
2. No case at all and no inquiry into facts likely; tax records and others will show the individual lived elsewhere. Clear intent shown. This shouldn't get more than a glance.
3. I don't see sufficient information here to decide - but if the individual both landed in Quebec and never left, even for interviews, etc. - not a very strong case. Could a lawyer make it work based on eg pre-landing behaviour? Perhaps.
4. You write "but landed in or moved to Quebec" - to me, too vague here. If you mean the person landed in vancouver and got a connecting flight to Montreal - bad fact pattern. If you mean landed in Calgary but after some months there got a great job offer and job search showed no demand - not likely a problem, intent clearly shown in support of case. Note this latter scenario - the person had no nexus in Quebec at all beforehand (that I can see).

A side note that we've referred to 'intent' here, and I'd suggest that there's positive and negative intent (my terminology). Positive intent - showing the applicant made an actual effort to attempt to live elsewhere - may be difficult to prove, and the paucity of evidence of positive intent may not be very prejudicial to the applicant. (A complete lack of any might be)

Negative intent: by this I mean evidence that would tend to show or underline that the individual was purposefully misleading IRCC (or related) and/or never had intent to live outside Quebec or attempt to. My guess is such evidence (even if inferred) is going to have more weight. We're not going to (likely) have eg correspondence stating baldly "I've no intent to ever leave hahaha those dupes in the govt, I've fooled them!". But some things - work contracts signed before becoming a PR, continuous employment with a single employer (before/after), leases in Quebec signed before even arriving in Canada, professional qualifications never pursued to allow work outside Quebec, etc - these might lead to inference of negative intent.

But overall I'd underline: not clear to me how many such cases there actually are, or even how often eg citizenship cases are subject to more scrutiny (resulting in delays anyway). I've no sense of how often this happens - and I don't trust anecdotes about "I heard about a guy who..." because such tales usually (in my experience) leave out the other side of the story - i.e. not many will relate how flagrantly they were out of line. (Their version of the defence is always going to be some vague "I looked for work eslewhere but ..." and there's no opportunity to ask factual questions about how much, did they travel, etc.)

Going back to the opening post in this thread:


Assuming there is some evidence about the potential job transfer/being laid off, I'd say this is more likely to be one where IRCC - if they inquire - is not going to pursue. The EI period provides some support, as well, as does the education - in my view - in that someone in both situations usually more open to moving (i.e. fairly likely that no decent opportunities came up, and the person may not have had resources to pursue more). Yes, that's my subjective interpretation, with only a couple minutes' reading; anyone can disagree with it. But I think IRCC wouldn't pursue because too much opening to challenge on any kind of judicial review ("I really tried, you think I stayed on EI because I wanted to, etc.") And of course we have to admit - this is assuming the fact pattern is true and doesn't omit anything important. (If IRCC were to look into it, I suspect they'd devote very little time to analysis and make a decision based on the very limited fact patterns - and a decision that at this point is only 'is it worth pursuing or not'. I know what my guess is on that.)

FWIW.
I can’t help but ponder and you are absolutely right. There is absolutely no case of a citizenship app being refused for the sole reason of someone who is PR (pnp or csq) who moved to a different province and faced refusals or pr being revoked from IRCC. I consulted multiple lawyers on this and no one has seen even one case in regards to citizenship app. I would like for this individual to post a canlii link or docket no, if there is a case. I am pretty sure there is none, if there is one I would be very curious to see.
 

armoured

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I can’t help but ponder and you are absolutely right. There is absolutely no case of a citizenship app being refused for the sole reason of someone who is PR (pnp or csq) who moved to a different province and faced refusals or pr being revoked from IRCC. I consulted multiple lawyers on this and no one has seen even one case in regards to citizenship app. I would like for this individual to post a canlii link or docket no, if there is a case. I am pretty sure there is none, if there is one I would be very curious to see.
I don't exclude that it's possible there are some; I just don't have any information supporting the contention that it happens a lot.

My suspicion - gut feeling - is that to the extent there are any, they may be based on some really outrageous set of facts; either true outliers, or perhaps some nexus to organized immigration fraud (some consultancies or third parties running 'rings').

I vaguely recall that there was some concern a few years ago about a case involving a firm or 'consultancy' providing outright fraudulent documents/services for individuals to show they were living somewhere in the Maritimes (when in fact they'd not even set foot in the province in question). But the thing is - there wasn't a lot of public news after about this.
 
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MJSPARV

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Sep 17, 2020
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I vaguely recall that there was some concern a few years ago about a case involving a firm or 'consultancy' providing outright fraudulent documents/services for individuals to show they were living somewhere in the Maritimes (when in fact they'd not even set foot in the province in question). But the thing is - there wasn't a lot of public news after about this.
It was PEI.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4971662
 
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canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Given the long processing times in Quebec there seems to be many more declaring their intent to leave Quebec or who have obtained an address during processing but have plans to return to Quebec as soon as they get PR. If the volume of applicants returning to Quebec right after sponsorship or receiving PR increases I assume there is a much better chance IRCC and the government of Quebec will attempt to pursue cases. This will set a precedent and almost more importantly spread the word in both the immigrant communities and immigration professional groups that people should not attempt this.