PR Obligations not met for 14 years

[michaelin]

Hi,

I left Canada in 2009 without completing PR residency obligation and returned to India to be with my wife also a Canadian PR and my one year old son who was born in India and is not a Canadian PR. I subsequently secured a job opportunity in Hong Kong in 2010 and have been living here with my wife and 2 sons. The second son was born in HK and is also not a Canadian PR like my first son. We are in the process of converting to Chinese nationality and will be holders of Hong Kong SAR passports next month holders of which which are entitled to visitor visa free access to Canada. We would like to return and settle permanently in Canada as a family and would be grateful for your comments and advice on what would be the best approach to take given that my wife and I are in breach of Canadian PR residency obligation.

We have thought about Option (1) My wife and my 2 sons try to return to Canada first through US Land Border crossing and see what the CBSA/IRCC says on their new HK passports. If they wave my wife and sons through (sons on visitor visa), then I will resign my job in HK and I join them in Canada. If they wave me through at border then all is good. If my wife is issued a departure order then they will return to HK with my kids and we all continue our life in HK. If I am issued a departure order at border and my wife and kids have been let in with no problem, then I will submit an appeal to IAD with the help of a lawyer.

The other option 2) is my wife and I renounce our Canadian PRs and one of us apply to study in Canada to complete a 1 year Masters degree program. The reason for this approach is that under a public policy issued by IRCC in June 2021 for HK SAR passportholders can apply for PR after having studied in Canada at DLIs and have fulfilled certain educational requirements. This program expires on 31st August 2026. There is no guarantee that my study visa will be approved as I am already 50 years old. My wife is 47 years and 2 sons 13 and 6 years respectively and before I apply for the study visa we will first need to renounce our Canadian PR.

Option 3) is for all of us to travel together to Canada via US Land Border and submit a H&C request at border and if issued a departure order, we appeal to the IAD. Whilst the appeal is in process, one of us studies in Canada under the 1 year Masters program and on completion we may be able to apply under the Hong Kong SAR public policy open to HK nationals in which case we will need to revoke our PR. I am told PR decisions on these cases are quite quick owing to priority processing of these cases.

Appreciate that our cases in rather complex and would welcome your thoughts and feedback on the options above with pros and cons if possible. Thank you so much in advance.

 

[jakklondon]

Let's start with number #3. I don't think the time you spend in Canada as PR will count towards requirements of program to apply for PR after completion of studies.

#1 and #2, both are long shots. Since you already have PR status, it seems the more logical step is to try to utilize it. Odds are against you and if grilled for residence, you will be reported , and you know the rest (appeal to IAD and etc.). But why would you care? You are prepared to renounce your PR anyway, in order to reapply, so why not try to just keep it?
At the end of the day it's a matter of preference and how you think. Some people will say "renounce and reapply". Others may suggest to try to keep PR first, and if failed then apply for student visa. If all fails you go back/stay in HK. Good luck.

 

[michaelin]

Thank you jakklondon

 

[canuck78]

Hi,

I left Canada in 2009 without completing PR residency obligation and returned to India to be with my wife also a Canadian PR and my one year old son who was born in India and is not a Canadian PR. I subsequently secured a job opportunity in Hong Kong in 2010 and have been living here with my wife and 2 sons. The second son was born in HK and is also not a Canadian PR like my first son. We are in the process of converting to Chinese nationality and will be holders of Hong Kong SAR passports next month holders of which which are entitled to visitor visa free access to Canada. We would like to return and settle permanently in Canada as a family and would be grateful for your comments and advice on what would be the best approach to take given that my wife and I are in breach of Canadian PR residency obligation.

We have thought about Option (1) My wife and my 2 sons try to return to Canada first through US Land Border crossing and see what the CBSA/IRCC says on their new HK passports. If they wave my wife and sons through (sons on visitor visa), then I will resign my job in HK and I join them in Canada. If they wave me through at border then all is good. If my wife is issued a departure order then they will return to HK with my kids and we all continue our life in HK. If I am issued a departure order at border and my wife and kids have been let in with no problem, then I will submit an appeal to IAD with the help of a lawyer.

The other option 2) is my wife and I renounce our Canadian PRs and one of us apply to study in Canada to complete a 1 year Masters degree program. The reason for this approach is that under a public policy issued by IRCC in June 2021 for HK SAR passportholders can apply for PR after having studied in Canada at DLIs and have fulfilled certain educational requirements. This program expires on 31st August 2026. There is no guarantee that my study visa will be approved as I am already 50 years old. My wife is 47 years and 2 sons 13 and 6 years respectively and before I apply for the study visa we will first need to renounce our Canadian PR.

Option 3) is for all of us to travel together to Canada via US Land Border and submit a H&C request at border and if issued a departure order, we appeal to the IAD. Whilst the appeal is in process, one of us studies in Canada under the 1 year Masters program and on completion we may be able to apply under the Hong Kong SAR public policy open to HK nationals in which case we will need to revoke our PR. I am told PR decisions on these cases are quite quick owing to priority processing of these cases.

Appreciate that our cases in rather complex and would welcome your thoughts and feedback on the options above with pros and cons if possible. Thank you so much in advance.

Your names should be flagged as PRs even if you obtain new citizenships. Would review whether new HK nationals will fall under the immigration program. You will have chosen to obtain citizenship after the special immigration programs for people to relocate from HK was already in place. You’ve chosen to become HK citizens knowing the difficulties in the country. One of your biggest issues is your children aren’t PRs. They won’t qualify for sponsorship for around 3 years. They don’t qualify for education, healthcare, etc.until they are a PRs. If you enter without being reported your whole family may not be able to get a health card for 2 years. Your SIN#s are likely on hold. Some provinces require proof of a valid PR card to activate your SIN# again. You are entitled to work as a PR but you may be required to fight to get your SIN# activated without proof of longterm residency in Canada or a valid PR card.

 

[jakklondon]

OP, if you enter Canada unreported (as poster above described), and you are denied SIN activation, health care benefits and etc. (which you are ENTITLED TO AS PR, WHETHER REPORTED OR NOT), then go ahead and SUE the government in charge of SIN, healthcare and etc. They are all different parts of humongous government apparatus and will not be able to sue you in immigration court in retaliation and hopes to get you deported. A lot of people , especially from third world countries don't understand how the government in Canada works and get too scared to sue any government agency, out of fear that they will be retaliated against. It is NOT so.

I don't know how you plan to enter Canada, but two things I want to add:
14 years out of Canada means they know no jack pants about you. The Orwellian Triple Hermetic Secret Worshippers implemented the final stages of Hermetic Super-Puper Border Sealing Initiative relatively recently. They now DO TRACK all the exits from Canada, land and air, not just entries, but this wasn't so just about 5 or 7 years ago. SO, as I said, they know no jack pants about your exit 14 years ago. And , no matter what you do say or don't say, the end result could be deportation (which you are OK with anyway), so feel free to say ANYTHING. But, my strong advise, avoid telling a lie, because a lie will permanently disqualify you from entering into Canada in future. REMEMBER, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT (dirty cops HATE it when you remain silent, there is no lie or misrepresentation in it, so do what they hate, it will be in your best interest. Dirty cops' best friend is an immigrant who breaks the law, so they can have you on the hook as a "bad guy" not deserving to be in Canada).
But, worst comes to worse, even if you can't be firm enough and avoid telling a lie, the worst thing that is to happen to you is a deportation and permanent ban from entry to Canada, and you seem to be fine with it either way. So, act according to your own interests and options, hire and consult the best immigration attorney you can (don't listen to laymen).

 

[armoured]

Some provinces require proof of a valid PR card to activate your SIN# again.

These are done through Service Canada and not a provincial responsibility - although to be fair we do not know how consistent application of this is between provinces or even locations.

 

[canuck78]

These are done through Service Canada and not a provincial responsibility - although to be fair we do not know how consistent application of this is between provinces or even locations.

There does seem to be some inconsistencies between provinces and even locations.

 

[michaelin]

Thank you much Canucks and jakklondon for your responses. I would dearly like to not be deported or reported but understand that the odds are stacked heavily against me.To answer your question about how we plan to enter Canada it will be via private vehicle via US Canada land border crossing given that we do not have our Canadian PR cards with us and this is the only way to enter Canada per my understanding. I plan to take the help of an Immigration lawyer to help with a H&C case but this at best is probably a 50:50 chance. In case we are reported and PR status revoked , I plan to appeal and study whilst wait for a hearing which I am told can take up to a year and a bit. My spouse will work whilst we await a hearing on our case as per.l my.understanstanding we will be grated temporary PR cards . If my kids are allowed to enter under the visa free option granted to Hong Kong passport holder ,will they entitled to study in Canada given they are children of Canadian PRs, until a decision. is made by IAD.

 

[jakklondon]

Thank you much Canucks and jakklondon for your responses. I would dearly like to not be deported or reported but understand that the odds are stacked heavily against me.To answer your question about how we plan to enter Canada it will be via private vehicle via US Canada land border crossing given that we do not have our Canadian PR cards with us and this is the only way to enter Canada per my understanding. I plan to take the help of an Immigration lawyer to help with a H&C case but this at best is probably a 50:50 chance. In case we are reported and PR status revoked , I plan to appeal and study whilst wait for a hearing which I am told can take up to a year and a bit. My spouse will work whilst we await a hearing on our case as per.l my.understanstanding we will be grated temporary PR cards . If my kids are allowed to enter under the visa free option granted to Hong Kong passport holder ,will they entitled to study in Canada given they are children of Canadian PRs, until a decision. is made by IAD.

Let me start with your last question: if they were PR's when you left Canada, you properly sponsored them and all that, then they are still PRs, just like yourself. As such, they would be entitled to the same benefits as you But if they are not PRs already, then you can't sponsor them for PR until your own PR status is fully cleared. Sponsoring while in breach of RO guarantees that you will loose your status, while they won't gain theirs. Be careful with anecdotal evidence about "lots of people getting away with it", it could be someone wishing you all get deported and not concerned about outcome of your app.

H&C would be an ideal way for everyone, since you would gain all the benefits of compliant with RO resident, but you must have a "real" reason for it. Saying you stayed out of Canada due to lack of jobs or some other reason (they consider it not a hardship, but a convenience) will not yield expected results. It's not impossible, but highly unlikely to get in compliance with bogus H&C (you must get a border agent who feels about you like your grandma).

You definitely can take advantage of your existing PR status and study in Canada while you fight off the appeal (for as long as IAD takes to decide it).

It's hard to say what you should do. You have to weigh all options, possible outcomes and your goals and then make a bet (it's going to be a gamble any way, with odds, as you stated, stacked against you).

Good luck.

 

[davidandgoliath]

Thank you very much for your response Jakklondon

 

[jakklondon]

Thank you very much for your response Jakklondon

Anytime! I can't stand Orwellian Triple Hermetic Secret Worshippers, so it's my pleasure to help anyone and give intelligent insights that drive Triple Hermetics nuts

 

[YVR123]

Thank you much Canucks and jakklondon for your responses. I would dearly like to not be deported or reported but understand that the odds are stacked heavily against me.To answer your question about how we plan to enter Canada it will be via private vehicle via US Canada land border crossing given that we do not have our Canadian PR cards with us and this is the only way to enter Canada per my understanding. I plan to take the help of an Immigration lawyer to help with a H&C case but this at best is probably a 50:50 chance. In case we are reported and PR status revoked , I plan to appeal and study whilst wait for a hearing which I am told can take up to a year and a bit. My spouse will work whilst we await a hearing on our case as per.l my.understanstanding we will be grated temporary PR cards . If my kids are allowed to enter under the visa free option granted to Hong Kong passport holder ,will they entitled to study in Canada given they are children of Canadian PRs, until a decision. is made by IAD.

Do all of you have US visitor visa? As far as I know HK passport is not visa exempted to enter US. Or are you planning to use a different passport to enter US?

 

[canuck78]

Thank you much Canucks and jakklondon for your responses. I would dearly like to not be deported or reported but understand that the odds are stacked heavily against me.To answer your question about how we plan to enter Canada it will be via private vehicle via US Canada land border crossing given that we do not have our Canadian PR cards with us and this is the only way to enter Canada per my understanding. I plan to take the help of an Immigration lawyer to help with a H&C case but this at best is probably a 50:50 chance. In case we are reported and PR status revoked , I plan to appeal and study whilst wait for a hearing which I am told can take up to a year and a bit. My spouse will work whilst we await a hearing on our case as per.l my.understanstanding we will be grated temporary PR cards . If my kids are allowed to enter under the visa free option granted to Hong Kong passport holder ,will they entitled to study in Canada given they are children of Canadian PRs, until a decision. is made by IAD.

No they aren’t entitled to study as children of PRs. They are visitors. They will need a study permit and to pay international fees to study.

 

[jakklondon]

No they aren’t entitled to study as children of PRs. They are visitors. They will need a study permit and to pay international fees to study.

I often dispute statements made by poster above, but this one is absolutely correct. Visitors are not entitled to get benefits that PRs are entitled to. As such, they will need a student permit and pay international tuition rate.

In US visitors can study without student visa while their tourist visa is valid, but they may face problems in future (for not disclosing plans to go to school when applying for a tourist visa). I don't know if tourists can go to school in Canada by simply paying an international fee, but if you are willing to pay the international tuition you should definitely check the laws and regulations to make sure it's not going to jeopardize their future ability to return to Canada. Unlike us, aging parents who can say "screw it, I don't need to return to Canada", kids have their whole lives ahead of them and must be extra careful about any kind of missteps, and as parents we must make sure they take all the right steps, now and in future. When it comes to our children we are responsible not just for ourselves, but for the purpose of our existence. Good luck.

 

[michaelin]

Thanks so much again for all your responses. Completely agree with the principle of paying international fees as it should be offered to Canadian PRs. I quote below the following extract taken from the official Canadian.ca website with regards to need for a study permit. Again I am not an Immigration specialist or subject matter expert by any stretch of imagination but would appreciate comments based on the following extracts for children who are already in Canada:

:
Minor children who are already in Canada may study without a study permit if they

• want to go to pre-school, kindergarten, or primary or secondary school and have a parent who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada
• are refugees or refugee claimants whose parents are refugees or refugee claimants
• came to Canada as a visitor for a course or program of studies of 6 months or less
• will study in a course or program of 6 months or less
• are in Canada by themselves or on a visitor status
• have a parent (biological or adoptive) who is authorized to work or study in Canada, including temporary residents who are
  • work permit holders
  • study permit holders
  • not physically in Canada
  • business visitors and others authorized to work without a work permit

Minors who don’t have a study permit must have valid visitor status during their stay in Canada.

Based on the above they do need to have a valid visitor status. Hence I will need to apply for visitor visas for them for at least 2 years whilst my PR residency requirement is normalized or fulfilled. Is this even possible and does anyone have experience with IRCC approving such visa requests?. Thanks in advance!