Would Not Meet RO - got Job in Ireland

[Copingwithlife]

They should fix economy, housing, build more hospitals, housing institute of higher learning before bringing in more and more immigration. They are getting 1% of population in every year and look around how many new hospitals are they building, how many new universities they are building, how many new houses they are building? They are just pitching immigrants and Canadians against each other for limited resources. I was shocked to learn that Ontario just have 1000 icu beds. For a province with such large population, thats a joke. Then they had to do lockdown to save those beds.

Of course it’s a joke .
Hopefully voters will wake up that a open door immigration isn’t really that good of a idea .
Can’t forget the P&G program . Let’s bring in older individuals who’ve never paid a cent in taxes , to be able to use a already over burdened healthcare system

 

[jakklondon]

I have lived both in US and Canada, I can tell from my personal experience that US is way better for a working class skilled immigrant. I dont know about Europe or other countries no cant comment on that.
US provides way more economic opportunity. When you compare similar jobs, I was making way more income from my job in US than in Canada. Also you keep more of your income to you rather than paying high taxes. You cant buy a decent house to live in any decent sized city in Canada with decent income. Infact, half the Canadian population will never be able to own a house with current income levels unless they get money from outside like many immigrants are doing. Canadian young people have normalized living in small, run down apartments. It shouldn't have to be like that in a rich developed country. It is failure of the political class who are allowing more and more foreign money and foreign labor to come into Canadian economy without increasing much productivity in the economy. Lot of low skilled and family class immigrants, or even inborn Canadians that I meet in Canada are working very minimum, low paying jobs and just letting their houses pay for their living. Most will live in 1 to 1.5million dollar houses but still collect childcare dollars for their kids as they work very little. Whereas, a hard working new Canadian or immigrants would work their butt off, and if they make 120k and up, they would be paying way high taxes, no benefits and would be buying a run down bad house due to no fault of their own.

From the surface you would feel you are getting free healthcare out of your high taxes but its a farce. Nothing is free. You pay high taxes and even then you dont get good healthcare. I have experienced first hand. Doctors dont care about your wait time, clinics dont care if you are getting good services and are taken care adequately as they are getting paid from province no matter what. They have no incentives to give good services. Just google some doctors offices around your area and look at the reviews people put. You will have hard time finding a 4 star office let alone 5.
Doctors are still providing decades old treatment modalities and options as those are the only ones approved and paid by the provinces. They are not trying newer advanced treatment option like newer implants, newer stents as they are expensive and provinces dont pay for it. Doctors just try to make you go away unless you are dying. They are happy treating and writing usual diabetes and high BP meds to patient. They rarely go out of their way to do more investigations and be proactive, as there is no incentive to make more diagnosis and more production for the office, and help someone in the meantime. Even illegal immigrants in US get healthcare through medicaid and no hospital can deny live saving healthcare in US to anyone regardless if they have insurance or if they are able to pay. Healthcare in US is no doubt expensive for regular low income working families but they try to get insurance, no family want to move to Canada or Europe for free healthcare reason. It leads to personal responsibility rather than depending upon someone live government for your needs. And believe me, healthcare in Canada is also expensive, you pay with your taxes and cost of living.

Also 9% of Canadian population is living outside Canada, thats a huge number. And I dont have exact data but I feel about 50% of people over 65 stay 6 months out of Canada in Florida (for whites) and India or other countries during winters, while keep drawing government benefits and healthcare. Now does that help Canada in any way economically or socially, you can tell.

Someone compare Toronto to New York. While its not accurate, TO is more comparable to Chicago in terms of population and economic activity. Compare the housing prices and average income in Chicago and TO, you can clearly see its much easier for someone to get a decent house, have a decent life in Chicago with median income. Good luck doing that in TO.

This is a subjective observation but I found that in reality, US system overall is much more friendly for immigrants both low and high skilled, if you ignore the political rhetoric. For sure its messy for someone like me who was born in India or for someone from China.
They take in lot of immigrants both legal and illegal, and even illegals can work, get drivers license, go to school and get lot more services. Ask an illegal immigrant in Canada, they cant even open a bank account. In all fairness, Canada does make it easier for skilled educated immigrants to come in, its in no way friendly to overall immigrants. Infact it hates letting old age parents of immigrants coming here and put all sorts of roadblocks. Lot of skilled and family class immigrants who come to Canada are doing the same jobs and work which the undocumented do in US, atleast they live in warmer climate.
Minimum wage is higher in Canada no doubt but look at that the cost of living. Also why are we discussion minimum wage when we discussing skilled economic immigration.

All these are personal observation. I have lived in both countries, studied in both countries, worked both minimum wage jobs and highest tax bracket jobs in both countries. Your experiences might be different but you cant ignore the fact that most immigrants want to work, be able to have a house, live comfortably and provide for their family. This is way easier to achieve in US.

I think poster above tried to use "Canada vs America" card, it just didn't work quite well.

Thank you for sharing your observations.

 

[jakklondon]

They should fix economy, housing, build more hospitals, housing institute of higher learning before bringing in more and more immigration. They are getting 1% of population in every year and look around how many new hospitals are they building, how many new universities they are building, how many new houses they are building? They are just pitching immigrants and Canadians against each other for limited resources. I was shocked to learn that Ontario just have 1000 icu beds. For a province with such large population, thats a joke. Then they had to do lockdown to save those beds.

There is this paradox, but large corporations do thrive in chaos and ruin. A lot of pain felt by immigrants and Canadians alike is not something that shareholder of large corporation feels when he can employ 10 people for the cost of 1. It just increases their profit. And if you are a large, resourceful corporation you can make money off anything, including rising crime rate (which follows the poverty , decay and destruction of infrastructure). All you have to do is open for profit prisons, or use criminals on the street as paid informers who can terrorize and keep under their thumb disgruntled citizens. Lots of opportunities for corrupt dealings and profiteering while middle class is being decimated, poverty and depression rise and the whole country goes into waste.

 

[IndianBos]

I have lived both in US and Canada, I can tell from my personal experience that US is way better for a working class skilled immigrant. I dont know about Europe or other countries no cant comment on that.
US provides way more economic opportunity. When you compare similar jobs, I was making way more income from my job in US than in Canada. Also you keep more of your income to you rather than paying high taxes. You cant buy a decent house to live in any decent sized city in Canada with decent income. Infact, half the Canadian population will never be able to own a house with current income levels unless they get money from outside like many immigrants are doing. Canadian young people have normalized living in small, run down apartments. It shouldn't have to be like that in a rich developed country. It is failure of the political class who are allowing more and more foreign money and foreign labor to come into Canadian economy without increasing much productivity in the economy. Lot of low skilled and family class immigrants, or even inborn Canadians that I meet in Canada are working very minimum, low paying jobs and just letting their houses pay for their living. Most will live in 1 to 1.5million dollar houses but still collect childcare dollars for their kids as they work very little. Whereas, a hard working new Canadian or immigrants would work their butt off, and if they make 120k and up, they would be paying way high taxes, no benefits and would be buying a run down bad house due to no fault of their own.

From the surface you would feel you are getting free healthcare out of your high taxes but its a farce. Nothing is free. You pay high taxes and even then you dont get good healthcare. I have experienced first hand. Doctors dont care about your wait time, clinics dont care if you are getting good services and are taken care adequately as they are getting paid from province no matter what. They have no incentives to give good services. Just google some doctors offices around your area and look at the reviews people put. You will have hard time finding a 4 star office let alone 5.
Doctors are still providing decades old treatment modalities and options as those are the only ones approved and paid by the provinces. They are not trying newer advanced treatment option like newer implants, newer stents as they are expensive and provinces dont pay for it. Doctors just try to make you go away unless you are dying. They are happy treating and writing usual diabetes and high BP meds to patient. They rarely go out of their way to do more investigations and be proactive, as there is no incentive to make more diagnosis and more production for the office, and help someone in the meantime. Even illegal immigrants in US get healthcare through medicaid and no hospital can deny live saving healthcare in US to anyone regardless if they have insurance or if they are able to pay. Healthcare in US is no doubt expensive for regular low income working families but they try to get insurance, no family want to move to Canada or Europe for free healthcare reason. It leads to personal responsibility rather than depending upon someone live government for your needs. And believe me, healthcare in Canada is also expensive, you pay with your taxes and cost of living.

Also 9% of Canadian population is living outside Canada, thats a huge number. And I dont have exact data but I feel about 50% of people over 65 stay 6 months out of Canada in Florida (for whites) and India or other countries during winters, while keep drawing government benefits and healthcare. Now does that help Canada in any way economically or socially, you can tell.

Someone compare Toronto to New York. While its not accurate, TO is more comparable to Chicago in terms of population and economic activity. Compare the housing prices and average income in Chicago and TO, you can clearly see its much easier for someone to get a decent house, have a decent life in Chicago with median income. Good luck doing that in TO.

This is a subjective observation but I found that in reality, US system overall is much more friendly for immigrants both low and high skilled, if you ignore the political rhetoric. For sure its messy for someone like me who was born in India or for someone from China.
They take in lot of immigrants both legal and illegal, and even illegals can work, get drivers license, go to school and get lot more services. Ask an illegal immigrant in Canada, they cant even open a bank account. In all fairness, Canada does make it easier for skilled educated immigrants to come in, its in no way friendly to overall immigrants. Infact it hates letting old age parents of immigrants coming here and put all sorts of roadblocks. Lot of skilled and family class immigrants who come to Canada are doing the same jobs and work which the undocumented do in US, atleast they live in warmer climate.
Minimum wage is higher in Canada no doubt but look at that the cost of living. Also why are we discussion minimum wage when we discussing skilled economic immigration.

All these are personal observation. I have lived in both countries, studied in both countries, worked both minimum wage jobs and highest tax bracket jobs in both countries. Your experiences might be different but you cant ignore the fact that most immigrants want to work, be able to have a house, live comfortably and provide for their family. This is way easier to achieve in US.

Having lived in both countries, I agree that US provides better economic opportunities. However, other factors like cost of living, healthcare, etc vary greatly across the US to paint it all with a single brush. When people talk about Canada, the discussion invariably reduces to GTA area, while for the US, people bring up the city they want to choose (Chicago, Austin, etc). Toronto or Vancouver should aptly be compared to New York or San Francisco, because they are the largest economic centers of their respective countries.

Any immigrant looking to move looks at US as the first choice, but now for someone trying to move from India, the green card wait time can be 15-20 years, and then another 5 years for citizenship. That is almost all your working life tied to a visa, travel restrictions due to stamping, etc. And Spousal work permit is another big factor. That is a lot of uncertainty and waiting a good part of one's adult life. Parents sponsorship is after 25 years in that scenario.

And I don't want to get started about gun violence.

In nut-shell, I don't think it is fair to compare the two vastly different countries. Both countries have their fair share of problems, and it is on each person to make a decision which lesser evil would be more tolerable to them.

But as one of the poster has continuously been pushing an agenda that skilled immigrants are pulling rickshaws in Canada and majority taking up survival jobs is a hyperbole at best. There might be a small minority underemployed, but that is also true to any population. We have all read about Doctors driving Uber in US, and PhDs driving Autos in India.

 

[jakklondon]

There are posters above who stick to straw man arguments (inventing a new argument, that I didn't make, and then arguing against it), and one of the persistent straw men here is to compare US to Canada, and pretend that my original argument is about comparing these two countries (it's not).
But if anyone wishes to bring this straw man and make this debate about comparisons of Canadian job market/wages versus American, then I am happy to disclose that things in US are much better than in Canada, as far as labor market, demand for skilled workers and wages are concerned.
Gun violence, hot weather and millions of other variables set aside.

My main issue with Canadian federal immigration policy makers is that they deliberately mislead by alleging that there is huge scarcity of skilled labor in Canada, and for that purpose they import hundreds of thousands of skilled professionals from all over the world. The law of demand-supply is such that if what they allege were true, then we would have employers fight with each other for workers and make higher bids to lure immigrants and Canadians alike.
What we observe is the opposite: immigrants fights/compete with immigrants and other Canadians for scarce professional jobs. Even if those jobs are not scarce, they systematically reject Canadian PRs, under the pretext that newly landed PR lacks Canadian experience. Which is an insidious catch 22: to get Canadian experience you need to get Canadian job. To get Canadian job, you need Canadian experience. As a result, many (I NEVER said ALL or even MAJORITY of ALL PRs) end up accepting what they call survival jobs, some entry level position as a store clerk, Uber driver or warehouse laborer, anything to pay their bills and literally survive. Who can argue and dispute these facts with straight face (crooks skilled in selling Brooklyn bridge are excluded)?

I then ask: why does Canadian federal government bring soooo many immigrants and plans to bring 1.3 million more , when the existing immigrants are struggling to get jobs in a very harsh and unfriendly to PRs job market? The only rational explanation to this policy is that the policy makers are not concerned about immigrants, nor are they concerned about native Canadians. Obviously, they have some motive to do this, and when you look at who can benefit from such policy you realize that it's the largest corporations who get to have Indian (or Pakistani/Indonesian/Ethiopian and many other) labor market at their fingertips in Canada. This certainly doesn't benefit immigrants (let alone native Canadians), as many Indians , including in this forum, admit that they had better living conditions in India than the one they found in Canada after landing. Hence all these RO issues (why else would newly landed immigrants leave host country for 3+ plus years, thus falling in breach of RO?).

Now, why not have this honest discussion and let everyone know what the conditions on the ground are?

There are certainly people who will benefit from immigrating to Canada, just as there are people who will benefit from immigrating to India or Pakistan (you could be a highly sought after physicist in Pakistan, or an investor in India , or high level IT specialist at very large bank in Toronto and etc.), but this certainly doesn't apply to the sheer number of immigrants that are being imported yearly.

Unless one has an agenda or is a crook, I don't see why one would be against having an honest conversation.

 

[SecularFirst]

Having lived in both countries, I agree that US provides better economic opportunities. However, other factors like cost of living, healthcare, etc vary greatly across the US to paint it all with a single brush. When people talk about Canada, the discussion invariably reduces to GTA area, while for the US, people bring up the city they want to choose (Chicago, Austin, etc). Toronto or Vancouver should aptly be compared to New York or San Francisco, because they are the largest economic centers of their respective countries.

Any immigrant looking to move looks at US as the first choice, but now for someone trying to move from India, the green card wait time can be 15-20 years, and then another 5 years for citizenship. That is almost all your working life tied to a visa, travel restrictions due to stamping, etc. And Spousal work permit is another big factor. That is a lot of uncertainty and waiting a good part of one's adult life. Parents sponsorship is after 25 years in that scenario.

And I don't want to get started about gun violence.

In nut-shell, I don't think it is fair to compare the two vastly different countries. Both countries have their fair share of problems, and it is on each person to make a decision which lesser evil would be more tolerable to them.

But as one of the poster has continuously been pushing an agenda that skilled immigrants are pulling rickshaws in Canada and majority taking up survival jobs is a hyperbole at best. There might be a small minority underemployed, but that is also true to any population. We have all read about Doctors driving Uber in US, and PhDs driving Autos in India.

I agree that both countries are different and cant be compared but I see people claiming Canada to be better way too often. The US immigration for someone born in India is indeed a mess and thats the reason I moved back to Canada and I am sure there are many like me. Most of my friends who moved are considering moving back once they finish the physical presence. Nothing wrong in that.
Violence and crime is a problem, but when you get large population, large dense cities, crime does go up. There is lot of crime news coming out of Toronto, north york area as well. Look at the homicide news just this year. Wait until the population goes to 60mil, you will see uptick for sure. That is something which cannot be avoided, although should be contained as much as possible. Look at how many drug overdose deaths happening in BC, way more per capita than California. That would be more fearful to me to raise kids then letting my kids go to crime ridden neighbourhoods as it has infiltrated almost all schools.

Still both are great countries, I would rather live in either of these than any other on the planet. Canada does put more restrictions on someone who wants to play by rules and move up the ladder. Cost of living, more regulations, high taxes are just a few examples. Try setting up a small business in Ontario and look how hard to get permits with insane regulations. That drive the price of everything up. And people have normalized it as they feels like thats the only way. I have seen the easy and sensible way in US and can compare. Young Canadian entering workforce today would never be able to buy a house, the basic need, with current average income all due to bad policies and no fault the young person. Not everyone is a doctor, or lawyer or highly paid software professional. Regular people makes the most of the economy and society.

And people often say move to smaller cities. Have you been to smaller cities, they dont have good schools or good paying job in smaller cities. For example, They dont even have a common specialist doctors in cities with 50-60k populations and they are making no efforts in training more doctors while bringing in more than 1% of new population. Have you seen they are building new medical schools or adding medical school to Univ of Ottawa etc. Just letting people go against each other for limited resources like housing and deals with wait times.

 

[SecularFirst]

There are posters above who stick to straw man arguments (inventing a new argument, that I didn't make, and then arguing against it), and one of the persistent straw men here is to compare US to Canada, and pretend that my original argument is about comparing these two countries (it's not).
But if anyone wishes to bring this straw man and make this debate about comparisons of Canadian job market/wages versus American, then I am happy to disclose that things in US are much better than in Canada, as far as labor market, demand for skilled workers and wages are concerned.
Gun violence, hot weather and millions of other variables set aside.

My main issue with Canadian federal immigration policy makers is that they deliberately mislead by alleging that there is huge scarcity of skilled labor in Canada, and for that purpose they import hundreds of thousands of skilled professionals from all over the world. The law of demand-supply is such that if what they allege were true, then we would have employers fight with each other for workers and make higher bids to lure immigrants and Canadians alike.
What we observe is the opposite: immigrants fights/compete with immigrants and other Canadians for scarce professional jobs. Even if those jobs are not scarce, they systematically reject Canadian PRs, under the pretext that newly landed PR lacks Canadian experience. Which is an insidious catch 22: to get Canadian experience you need to get Canadian job. To get Canadian job, you need Canadian experience. As a result, many (I NEVER said ALL or even MAJORITY of ALL PRs) end up accepting what they call survival jobs, some entry level position as a store clerk, Uber driver or warehouse laborer, anything to pay their bills and literally survive. Who can argue and dispute these facts with straight face (crooks skilled in selling Brooklyn bridge are excluded)?

I then ask: why does Canadian federal government bring soooo many immigrants and plans to bring 1.3 million more , when the existing immigrants are struggling to get jobs in a very harsh and unfriendly to PRs job market? The only rational explanation to this policy is that the policy makers are not concerned about immigrants, nor are they concerned about native Canadians. Obviously, they have some motive to do this, and when you look at who can benefit from such policy you realize that it's the largest corporations who get to have Indian (or Pakistani/Indonesian/Ethiopian and many other) labor market at their fingertips in Canada. This certainly doesn't benefit immigrants (let alone native Canadians), as many Indians , including in this forum, admit that they had better living conditions in India than the one they found in Canada after landing. Hence all these RO issues (why else would newly landed immigrants leave host country for 3+ plus years, thus falling in breach of RO?).

Now, why not have this honest discussion and let everyone know what the conditions on the ground are?

There are certainly people who will benefit from immigrating to Canada, just as there are people who will benefit from immigrating to India or Pakistan (you could be a highly sought after physicist in Pakistan, or an investor in India , or high level IT specialist at very large bank in Toronto and etc.), but this certainly doesn't apply to the sheer number of immigrants that are being imported yearly.

Unless one has an agenda or is a crook, I don't see why one would be against having an honest conversation.

I disagree. Canadian government does not mislead anyone. People can look for themselves when they make the decision to immigrate anywhere. I have not seen any claim or advertisement by Canadian government going to other countries and telling people to come to Canada with a guaranteed high paying job. Canada does need people to make economy work. The population is aging and most of the people in Canada are takers not contributors to government revenue. So they need constant new working people to come and work, increase price of houses so retiree can draw old age and sit on inflated house prices. If people dont like they can leave. I dont agree with RO rule but thats just one arbitrary way to regulate one aspect of immigration. I doubt politicians who made that rule ever thought about how that may impact few people who want to spend more time outside. And they have no incentive to improve or change it. I dont like it and I will leave.
The problem is Canada has a socialized system which depend on people constantly working and contributing to it. In my opinion it works okay for small population but once the population increase over a certain number, that system cant cope up. Then you have to let people take personal responsibility or else you can risk crumbling of the system. The government cant force everyone to work and pay tax but government is obligated to pay for their healthcare and survival. This wont work when there is very large population to deal with.

 

[IndianBos]

I agree that both countries are different and cant be compared but I see people claiming Canada to be better way too often. The US immigration for someone born in India is indeed a mess and thats the reason I moved back to Canada and I am sure there are many like me. Most of my friends who moved are considering moving back once they finish the physical presence. Nothing wrong in that.
Violence and crime is a problem, but when you get large population, large dense cities, crime does go up. There is lot of crime news coming out of Toronto, north york area as well. Look at the homicide news just this year. Wait until the population goes to 60mil, you will see uptick for sure. That is something which cannot be avoided, although should be contained as much as possible. Look at how many drug overdose deaths happening in BC, way more per capita than California. That would be more fearful to me to raise kids then letting my kids go to crime ridden neighbourhoods as it has infiltrated almost all schools.

Still both are great countries, I would rather live in either of these than any other on the planet. Canada does put more restrictions on someone who wants to play by rules and move up the ladder. Cost of living, more regulations, high taxes are just a few examples. Try setting up a small business in Ontario and look how hard to get permits with insane regulations. That drive the price of everything up. And people have normalized it as they feels like thats the only way. I have seen the easy and sensible way in US and can compare. Young Canadian entering workforce today would never be able to buy a house, the basic need, with current average income all due to bad policies and no fault the young person. Not everyone is a doctor, or lawyer or highly paid software professional. Regular people makes the most of the economy and society.

And people often say move to smaller cities. Have you been to smaller cities, they dont have good schools or good paying job in smaller cities. For example, They dont even have a common specialist doctors in cities with 50-60k populations and they are making no efforts in training more doctors while bringing in more than 1% of new population. Have you seen they are building new medical schools or adding medical school to Univ of Ottawa etc. Just letting people go against each other for limited resources like housing and deals with wait times.

When I made a decision to move to Canada, all these were evaluated compared to US (Boston in my example). Cost is living in GTA is lower than Boston, if wanting to live in a desirable neighborhood. Housing is still cheaper in GTa compared to desirable neighbourhoods around Boston. There are suburbs around Boston where one would not like to set foot in, while most of GTA neighborhoods are livable.

I still feel immigrants are better off in Canada, when considered holistically rather than just economic reasons. Someone with a US Green Card would never move to Canada, but when I compare life on H1B and H4 Spouse, there is no doubt I will choose Canada every single time. And after living here for 4 years now, I am happy I made that choice.

 

[jakklondon]

I disagree. Canadian government does not mislead anyone. People can look for themselves when they make the decision to immigrate anywhere. I have not seen any claim or advertisement by Canadian government going to other countries and telling people to come to Canada with a guaranteed high paying job. Canada does need people to make economy work. The population is aging and most of the people in Canada are takers not contributors to government revenue. So they need constant new working people to come and work, increase price of houses so retiree can draw old age and sit on inflated house prices. If people dont like they can leave. I dont agree with RO rule but thats just one arbitrary way to regulate one aspect of immigration. I doubt politicians who made that rule ever thought about how that may impact few people who want to spend more time outside. And they have no incentive to improve or change it. I dont like it and I will leave.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Disagreeing with the views of another is inherent right of a man in a civilized society that respects freedom of speech.

As to misleading part, I believe Canadian policy makers allege that there is a tremendous shortage of skilled workers in Canada, and the shortage is so great that they must bring 1.3 million foreigners in the next few years, with current levels of 400,000 PR's imported per year (up from 200K years back).

I highly doubt that the alleged shortage is true. If it was, employers would be fist fighting each other at ports of entry, grabbing each incoming PR and offering them a top dollar to work. But something completely different is observed: it's desperate PRs who look for jobs, applying for hundreds of positions to get an interview, living in constant stress and fear of failure. And many skilled PRs , this is widely known and openly discussed in mainstream media, end up taking unskilled labor positions, just for the sake of survival in their newly adopted country. Which leads me to believe that there is oversaturation, not shortage, of the kind of skilled workers that Canada imports. The observed fact thus contradicts the allegation of shortage, ergo my assertion that the claim of shortage is misleading. And we all know that it is this claim of worker's shortage that drives much of PR immigration (at least it is the one that opens legal venue to move into and obtain PR in Canada).

The problem is Canada has a socialized system which depend on people constantly working and contributing to it. In my opinion it works okay for small population but once the population increase over a certain number, that system cant cope up. Then you have to let people take personal responsibility or else you can risk crumbling of the system. The government cant force everyone to work and pay tax but government is obligated to pay for their healthcare and survival. This wont work when there is very large population to deal with.

This is a long debate that I don't even want to touch. A lot of the people who make the argument for or against so called socialist Canadian model of economics approach it from ideological standpoint rather than practical. I, on the other hand (I am empiricist), always like to look at outcomes and judge a thing by what the end result is, rather than what was said or intended, or what the end result in theory should be. Suffice it to say that in economic terms I am for maximum freedom of choice and action for all participants, whereas I believe government's function is to prevent any one person or interest group to gain such a degree of power or influence that it can exercise it to the utter detriment and destruction of the rest.
But let's end it here. Crux of my debate (and point I make) is in the first half of my response, which you can see above.