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Continued CBSA harassment despite H&C approval and PR Card renewed

Rasha

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Apr 26, 2008
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So we obtained our renewed PR cards and have been in Canada for 1396 days. Well within our RO. Made a US trip to gas up and returned within 2 hours, only to be met with threats of removal order for RO issues!!!???

We just received our PR Cards and even asked if we have any restrictions- we were told no, we can come-go as we please but be mindful of ROs. At the ti e of border entry- we had been IN Canada for 1396 days and had only been gone for 2 hours.
I will be requesting CBSA GSMC notes to see what they have put in our files; but should it not state we have H&C approval and that we have valid PR cards as a result?

Are we to expect this BS at each crossing? When will it end?

Hubby is hell bent on daily crossing as they have no reason to threaten us with removal orders (!), inquiry and a hearing…again. We never received a 44 removal request and have been in Canada since we returned back in Feb. 2018.

so what gives?? Thinking to have another chat with the journalist who originally interviewed me about our case…..

They should see updates on our file from the IRCC showing our interview being approved and receivi g our cards right?

Also I’m aware we need to continue to fulfill RO until we become citizens…we have been and will continue to.

is this a common occurrence for people in our situation?
 
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Rasha

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I’m adding some info I researched… I believe what we experienced at POE was an enforcement flag, based on our original entry when we returned to Canada. So correct me if I am wrong, but even if you are in compliance of RO, even if you have had a TWO YEAR secondary review which was successfully approved, and you were awarded Valid 5 year PR Card, CBSA will act bat shit crazy, not see that ‘hello, person was determined to be eligible for said PR Card, and is in compliance now’, and say things which actually are NOT factual.

I have read that these enforcement flags can be removed….(insert crafty lawyer or persistent resident with a modicum of knowledge), but not always easy.

in my case, from the time of initial return to Canada up to now, more than fulfilling RO, 1400 days…..and counting…..POE doesn’t get it, doesn’t care to get it, or …..?…….. IRCC officer screened, investigated and gave me a valid 5 year PR Card….I was told I can come and go into Canada as I like, but to maintain RO, which I am doing- why then is CBSA now threatening me with a secondary review ( already had one and successfully passed IRCC officer review) and with a possible removal order (!??) based on what exactly???, when I have left the country for two hours in 1400 days to go and gas up my car!!!!!!?? For reference I JUST RECEIVED MY VALID PR CARD THIS WEEK FROM THE IRCC VO. The VO was adding notes to our file in real time as we had satisfied their inquiry and received our PR cards.

Any suggestions? Also, we are well in compliance for Citizenship, and will submit application- my concern is this flag and how it will affect us in our lives when travelling and when we apply.
 
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steaky

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Made a US trip to gas up and returned within 2 hours.
Did CBSA upload your PCR test, vaccine passport and complete the arrivecan app before you meet the CBSA? Did you show the related webpage from on your cell phone to the CBSA?

Btw, which IRCC VO issues PR card? I thought visa office abroad issues travel document only.
 

Rasha

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Apr 26, 2008
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No we had those things ready for them, they didn’t take anything. We did the ArriveCAN app submission also. Pcrctest was not required- due to flooding, we are exempt for these short trips. Didn’t get a chance to show them anything. After the threats of removal etc they waived us through.
 
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jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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So we obtained our renewed PR cards and have been in Canada for 1396 days. Well within our RO. Made a US trip to gas up and returned within 2 hours, only to be met with threats of removal order for RO issues!!!???
We just received our PR Cards and even asked if we have any restrictions- we were told no, we can come-go as we please but be mindful of ROs. At the ti e of border entry- we had been IN Canada for 1396 days and had only been gone for 2 hours.
I will be requesting CBSA GSMC notes to see what they have put in our files; but should it not state we have H&C approval and that we have valid PR cards as a result?
Are we to expect this BS at each crossing? When will it end?
Hubby is hell bent on daily crossing as they have no reason to threaten us with removal orders (!), inquiry and a hearing…again. We never received a 44 removal request and have been in Canada since we returned back in Feb. 2018.
so what gives?? Thinking to have another chat with the journalist who originally interviewed me about our case…..
They should see updates on our file from the IRCC showing our interview being approved and receivi g our cards right?
Also I’m aware we need to continue to fulfill RO until we become citizens…we have been and will continue to.
is this a common occurrence for people in our situation?
I had the same experience at the border and it happened to me while I was a brand new PR, with no chance to be in breach of RO. They were treating me like a criminal and sending to secondary. Of course it was all BS, I know better than all LEOs & intelligence agencies of the world combined if I had broken criminal law or hadn't. I was infuriated. Not intimidated, but very angry, because I knew they were BSing me, in the hopes that I had guilty consciousness and would fold up. I figured they do this randomly to people they have nothing against. It's commonly known in LEO community technique, it's used to "rattle" bad guys (theory is, if you are a bad guy for real, you will have knee jerk reaction and start confession like Devil worshipper to Catholic priest on a deathbed). Some people say "this can never happen to innocent men, those border agents are sooo nice", but I suspect they are either ignorant of reality or (if they are not working for agency and are real immigrants), they are trying to ingratiate themselves with the system, in hopes to get a pat in the back.

To sum up and address your concerns: first of all, document each encounter with individual border agent. As soon as they send you to secondary, get the first name and last name/badge number of each agent you deal with. In the US we are allowed to record on hand held device our interactions with police, until we are arrested, our hands tied and our possessions are confiscated. If you have the same right in Canada, record your interaction with those donkeyhole agents. As soon as you are taken to secondary and they start intimidating you, demand their supervisor. Stay ultra calm, but be very firm and demand that they follow protocol, report the mistreatment and get any paper trail of interaction you can. Once in Canada, research options to pursue them. I believe border agents are outside of control, I think you can only make a complaint within the agency (it's like complaining to cops about cops), but research this subject. I know couple of years ago they were trying to pass law in Parliament to install overseeing agency over border agent's misconduct, that legislation got derailed by COVID, but it may have been passed recently (or could be in works to be passed in near future).
Finally, if you gather enough evidence and video recordings, you can release them to public. If you have media contacts, take advantage of it and speak up. Those cowardly dastards fear as fire any negative mention of them in the mass media. It's also a political matter and a matter of principle. Politicians who are in charge of these dastards go around the world and lecture other nations about democracy and human rights. How dare you teach other Nations human rights when you treat your own humans like this? Have human rights at your borders then lecture others!

Stay strong and confident. They are the ones who must fold, not you, because they are the ones violating your rights. You haven't violated any laws by being in compliance of RO and staying in Canada for so long. research all options in existence that will put their feet on fire and get your good name cleared.

Best of luck to you!
 
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jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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P.S. My post above concerns legal Permanent Residents , individuals who passed multiple background checks to qualify for the PR status. I am not advocate of chaos and lawlessness. In fact, I am for strong enforcement of laws at the border as long as it does not impede travel of legitimate persons. I am for prevention of entry of illegal aliens, drugs, victims of human trafficking and etc..
In short: I am not open borders guy. To the contrary: I am advocate of sovereign control and prevention of crime against the country and it's innocent residents. But in no way this means that I will support unlawful and abusive practices of LEOs/gov agents against legitimate travelers/residents/citizens, no matter where they are and who they work for.
 
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armoured

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in my case, from the time of initial return to Canada up to now, more than fulfilling RO, 1400 days…..and counting…..POE doesn’t get it, doesn’t care to get it, or …..?…….. IRCC officer screened, investigated and gave me a valid 5 year PR Card….I was told I can come and go into Canada as I like, but to maintain RO, which I am doing- why then is CBSA now threatening me with a secondary review ( already had one and successfully passed IRCC officer review) and with a possible removal order (!??) based on what exactly???, when I have left the country for two hours in 1400 days to go and gas up my car!!!!!!?? For reference I JUST RECEIVED MY VALID PR CARD THIS WEEK FROM THE IRCC VO. The VO was adding notes to our file in real time as we had satisfied their inquiry and received our PR cards.

Any suggestions? Also, we are well in compliance for Citizenship, and will submit application- my concern is this flag and how it will affect us in our lives when travelling and when we apply.
By all means apply for citizenship.

A few questions:
-when you say "continued CBSA harassment", how many times has this happened? It reads above like this is the first time you crossed the border in several years and certainly since receiving the card.
-when you crossed this time, can you describe in a bit more detail - specifically, did this interaction just take place at the booth (usually called primary), or were you made to park and go into the building (secondary usually)?
-Were you made/asked to sign anything? Show anything apart from eg PR card and basic identification?
-Could you provide a little bit more background on your return to Canada (seemingly more than three years ago)? Was there any significant interaction with border agents then? Warnings, no formal notice I understand, anything else?
-You refer to having a formal H&C approval - when did this happen and in what form? Did you receive eg PRTD with the H&C code?

My further suggestions really do depend on some of the above. But it does sound like an enforcement flag, and while it is seemingly hard to get these removed, what may have been a factor is if this was first time across border (and hence first interaction with CBSA) in a long time. While the flag might not be removed (i.e. removed from the file) easily, but more recent interactions and conclusions may weigh more heavily in future interactions - or put more simply, go through a few times and they'll pay less attention to an older flag.

It's important to keep in mind: IRCC and CBSA have overlapping mandates and work together, but they do not (routinely anyway) see and evaluate the exact same information - they have different systems. It's quite possible the CBSA officer did not see (or not easily) the info about the 'H&C decision' you refer to.

On the positive side, if you were not called into secondary at border, I believe that is a good sign. If this is the first time across border in a long time, situation is quite a bit different than if it's happened dozens of times.

A family member previously had a flag of a different type - due to having renounced PR - and was called into secondary at airports when arriving on TRVs . After the first time, it was considerably more relaxed even if a bit tedious. Anyway, will await more information to say more.
 

jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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Don't ever tolerate persecution. These Hermetic scoundrels, descendants of Shudra's of 100 years ago, are in no position to mistreat us like that.
 
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Rasha

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Apr 26, 2008
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Apologies for the delay in my reply - we actually were off screens for a few days.... I will respond to the questions within...


By all means apply for citizenship.

A few questions:
-when you say "continued CBSA harassment", how many times has this happened? It reads above like this is the first time you crossed the border in several years and certainly since receiving the card.
This was the first trip across the border since we received our cards. This is the second harassment since returning originally in Feb 2018. I had to attend a business trip in Jan 2020, when my card had originally been applied for [but not yet received] and we crossed the border by car...We had a secondary interrogation then, they let us, and we weren't issued anything - they said that we should wait if we can to travel again after we receive our cards (and then COVID happened, and no one was travelling).

-when you crossed this time, can you describe in a bit more detail - specifically, did this interaction just take place at the booth (usually called primary), or were you made to park and go into the building (secondary usually)?
This border interaction was in our our car only at the booth - we never went into the office. When he scanned our cards I guess, he said, hmmm I see a GSMS code 303 [or something] and he was like what is the issue with your residency obligations? I told him point blank, we were in the US for family business and issues beyond our control and unknowingly overstayed our RO. We were unaware of the residency obligation but returned home as soon as we could - that was in Feb 2018. I said, we are well compliant with our obligation now, and have received our PR cards after two years of review. The officer also asked how we became residents. I told him we were both sponsored to come here [my by my ex 27 years ago, and my husband by me 13 years ago]. He went on to say that our residency will probably be investigated, and there will be hearing for a removal order - when he said that, I said based on what , how and why? We have NEVER been served nor received anything. I said that we have kept our address information current with IRCC and that We were just in the IRCC offices TWO days ago, and they said our H&C case for PR card renewal despite not fulfilling our residency obligations at the time of application, <<<< has been approved>>>>>, and we will be receiving our cards, and we did get our cards on Nov 25th. IRCC also said we can travel as we please, but to stay compliant with our residency obligations. I further asked, what is his issue? He called back to the office, repeated that we should respond to any mail we receive and said here are your cards. He didn't say anything additional, and let us go.

-Were you made/asked to sign anything? Show anything apart from eg PR card and basic identification?
We were not given any papers, we were not told or asked to sign anything. We only showed our PR Cards, US passports and our proof of Vaccination (which we really didn't need). I also logged us into Arrive Can, so we can have proof of the two hour crossing.

-Could you provide a little bit more background on your return to Canada (seemingly more than three years ago)? Was there any significant interaction with border agents then? Warnings, no formal notice I understand, anything else?
Our initial crossing was a pain in the a$$ - In 2018 - the officer tried to goat my husband into a fight but couldn't. They asked us if we wanted to renounce our residency, and I was like NO. I had my three Canadian children with us when we crossed too. I had provided my offer letter to my new job, my kids' passports, etc... We were in the office for quite some time, and they seemed really irritated at us. They were yelling at my husband, who kept his cool, and would not budge at their goading.. [for no reason - but as I read now, I guess they hate people who don't comply with RO.] Interestingly, this specific crossing has had a poop ton of complaints and actions against them, including some officers having been fired since were first there.

-You refer to having a formal H&C approval - when did this happen and in what form? Did you receive eg PRTD with the H&C code?
We secured a lawyer upon returning home to Canada, and were going to wait out two years until we were compliant within RO before applying for our PR Cards - but I had a business trip looming, and we had to submit our application early. We did apply for PR card renewal, based on H&C considerations - we had 699 days in Canada at the time of filing. It took us 21 months to get our cards. Our MP keep checking on our case, our lawyer checked our case, and we got abbreviated ATIP notes from IRCC - it appears our case was conditionally approved in Sept 2020 [so a little over 6 months after applying] - however, we had to wait to go into the offices and weren't invited until Nov 8th for a Nov 25th appointment.

We applied to renew our PR Cards from within Canada and coming from the US into Canada, we did not require a PRTD to enter by car, back in 2018.


This is the original background of our story:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/file-for-pr-renewal-with-h-c-or-just-visa-exempt-status-to-go-home.519477/


My further suggestions really do depend on some of the above. But it does sound like an enforcement flag, and while it is seemingly hard to get these removed, what may have been a factor is if this was first time across border (and hence first interaction with CBSA) in a long time. While the flag might not be removed (i.e. removed from the file) easily, but more recent interactions and conclusions may weigh more heavily in future interactions - or put more simply, go through a few times and they'll pay less attention to an older flag.

It's important to keep in mind: IRCC and CBSA have overlapping mandates and work together, but they do not (routinely anyway) see and evaluate the exact same information - they have different systems. It's quite possible the CBSA officer did not see (or not easily) the info about the 'H&C decision' you refer to.

On the positive side, if you were not called into secondary at border, I believe that is a good sign. If this is the first time across border in a long time, situation is quite a bit different than if it's happened dozens of times.
This was our first return in almost two years, and we plan to come/go as we please. We are no longer prisoners here, as we were. I was thinking to take my paperwork into that specific border crossing and request that flag be removed - but I think it would only hinder issues. I have also learned that only 'acts of God' remove those flags, and our 'act of God' will be becoming citizens. Our applications are already in the system, but we did not have any formal provincial or Canadian ID like a Health Card or DL, which is needed for the application. We should be getting those soon as we went into ICBC on Saturday, and got our photos taken. I can't tell you how it feels to NO LONGER feel like an illegal alien!

A family member previously had a flag of a different type - due to having renounced PR - and was called into secondary at airports when arriving on TRVs . After the first time, it was considerably more relaxed even if a bit tedious. Anyway, will await more information to say more.
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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To be fair you were out if Canada for what seems as around 5 years. Looks like you sponsored your spouse but didn’t relocate for many years which IRCC does not like. You now have to prove that you will be relocating soon after getting PR. You applied for PR card renewal without meeting the 730 days. It also looks like you did cross the border without getting your new PR cards for work. You have a history of non-compliance with RO so it isn’t surprising that you may be questioned about residency obligation, travels, etc. and that you are flagged in the system. Many people go through secondary. As long as you can prove that you meet RO it is a hassle but not the end of the world.
 
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jakklondon

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To be fair you were out if Canada for what seems as around 5 years. Looks like you sponsored your spouse but didn’t relocate for many years which IRCC does not like. You now have to prove that you will be relocating soon after getting PR. You applied for PR card renewal without meeting the 730 days. It also looks like you did cross the border without getting your new PR cards for work. You have a history of non-compliance with RO so it isn’t surprising that you may be questioned about residency obligation, travels, etc. and that you are flagged in the system. Many people go through secondary. As long as you can prove that you meet RO it is a hassle but not the end of the world.
There is no trace of fairness in your reply. Here is what OP stated, "We just received our PR Cards and even asked if we have any restrictions- we were told no, we can come-go as we please but be mindful of ROs. At the ti e of border entry- we had been IN Canada for 1396 days and had only been gone for 2 hours." This man received his new PR card and had been in Canada for 1396 days, what are you talking about???!
 
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jakklondon

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Despicable people with criminal mentality in government positions are greatest manifestation of Evil (greater than ordinary criminals, for they are acting as agents of law and order).
 
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Rasha

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Respectfully, you are waaaay of Canuck, and I am not sure how you make those assumptions! I’ve been in Canada since 1994, my spouse has been in Canada since 2009 - and he was sponsored and immediately came to Canada when he got his visa to come - and had been in the country until we went to US. We were not gone gone for 5 years….left Canada DECEMBER 2013, and returned FEB 2018 - I don’t have the exact day count handy but it was 4 years and a few months and some days NOT 5 years!

everything yoh joyed is completely off base and wrong. We were well-settled in Canada pensions and all before goingsouth.

not quite sure what you are trying to get at really, but your comments in no way correlate to my life/history/experience sorry.

I did cross before we got our cards but this was the first and only time.

history of non-compliance based on first entry and one trip- in almost 4 years!??

We have been back home almost as long as we were away. So it doesn’t fly. WELL into compliance now.

The condescending “not the end of the world” comment is completely unnecessary- and frankly we have gone through hell until getting these cards and missed out on many important family situations. While not complaining because it is the choice (bad!) that we made, we have dealt with it.

What I will not accept is being treated like a criminal, or being falsely threatened, when I am following the law and doing what I am allowed to do.

AND I will be applying for NEXXUS because I can.
AND we will complete our citizenship apps.

To be fair you were out if Canada for what seems as around 5 years. Looks like you sponsored your spouse but didn’t relocate for many years which IRCC does not like. You now have to prove that you will be relocating soon after getting PR. You applied for PR card renewal without meeting the 730 days. It also looks like you did cross the border without getting your new PR cards for work. You have a history of non-compliance with RO so it isn’t surprising that you may be questioned about residency obligation, travels, etc. and that you are flagged in the system. Many people go through secondary. As long as you can prove that you meet RO it is a hassle but not the end of the world.
 
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jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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I do not know all the RO, but aren't you supposed to live in Canada for 730 days in any 5 years period? https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=727&top=10

But I guess you had your H&C case settled in Canada for that absence? isn't it?
This couple spent 1396 days in Canada (way over 730!), overcame objections over their absence (qualified for H&C waiver), and was in full compliance with RO at the time when criminal elements within CBSA persecuted and harassed them at the border.
 
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