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jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
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People follow the strict rules of green cards because the US enforces the residency requirements. It has nothing to do with jobs. If Canada enforced the ROs in the same fashion as the US most would also meet the RO requirements.
Totally disagree. Even during Trump years, when enforcement of law at the border was at highest, we had relentless group of migrants arriving at our Southern border. It had and has everything to do with jobs (no jobs in SA, plenty of jobs in USA).

I personally couldn't care less about law enforcement of Canada. What do I care about it if I am not going to live there? I chose not to move to Canada for only one reason - I had no chance of landing a skilled job in Canada. No amount of enforcement will push me get there to flip burgers.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
People immigrating can easily search the job opportunities in Canada or the requirements to get licensed in Canada in certain professions. I have communicated with so many IMGs who are totally unaware and naive about how difficult it will be to get licensed in Canada and even after being informed and suggesting better options they are determined to immigrate to Canada. Canada can’t prevent people from immigrating if they are determined to do so. Canada has provincial immigration programs that try to target the skills that are in need. There also are other programs that target skills needed like tech jobs. Canada also has programs trying to help foreign trained professionals, like doctors, find opportunities in Canada. This isn’t the 70s or 80s. IMGs aren’t driving taxis for decades after working as physicians in their countries. Although not perfect, many professionals get jobs in their profession when they arrive in Canada or after they get licensed in their field in Canada.
Canada can reduce PR visas from 400K to 200K or 0. Immigrants don't control the number of PR admissions. Canada does.
 

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
281
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People follow the strict rules of green cards because the US enforces the residency requirements. It has nothing to do with jobs. If Canada enforced the ROs in the same fashion as the US most would also meet the RO requirements.
There's a distinct difference between those two countries. The IRCC is a government body built to facilitate and manage legal migration to Canada. That is their core objective.

The core objective of the USCIS is to prevent non-US citizens from moving to the United States by any and all means necessary. That's why applications are considered "petitions" formally. Essentially everyone issued with a US immigrant visa is America waiving its normal rules on who can and cannot live and work there. Once you're in they are always looking for a way to get rid of you. That's also why they push US citizenship. Because once naturalised you cease to be an immigration statistic or their problem anymore.

Canada really shouldn't be compared with the US because it's really more comparable with a country like Australia than anywhere else.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
There's a distinct difference between those two countries. The IRCC is a government body built to facilitate and manage legal migration to Canada. That is their core objective.

The core objective of the USCIS is to prevent non-US citizens from moving to the United States by any and all means necessary. That's why applications are considered "petitions" formally. Essentially everyone issued with a US immigrant visa is America waiving its normal rules on who can and cannot live and work there. Once you're in they are always looking for a way to get rid of you. That's also why they push US citizenship. Because once naturalised you cease to be an immigration statistic or their problem anymore.

Canada really shouldn't be compared with the US because it's really more comparable with a country like Australia than anywhere else.
My point is not to debate intricacies of INA as opposed to Canadian immigration laws, nor am I comparing various parts of executive branch of the government in Canada vs. US.

I was specifically responding to a poster above, who suggested that American PRs stay in US due to stricter enforcement of RO, and that Canadian PRs leave Canada because they have lax enforcement of RO.


I disagreed with her suggestion. The reason for it is my observation of immigrants and their actions in the US versus in Canada:
Based on my observation and data we have, our LPRs staying in the US because there are plenty of jobs here (as opposed to scarcity of jobs in Canada).
It's not because of draconian enforcement of the law at the border. (By the way, for all the bad publicity US gets in the word, in reality we have some of the most lenient and friendly border agents in the world, and I know this because I traveled to many countries of western world and could compare how people standing in line in front of me were treated by one or other country's border agents).

Furthermore, if enforcement per se played major role, then it would deter any type of law breaking and breach at the border, especially when it comes to crossing the border illegally (which was highly discouraged during not so distant Trump years). But, as we all know very well (and saw with our own eyes on live TV streams), opposite kept happening at our border as the economic conditions in South America deteriorated, while job market boomed under the Trump administration.

My obvious conclusion is that it's not enforcement of law (or lack thereof) which pushes majority of the people one way or another, but the existence of economic opportunities.

P.S. I leave aside subject of refugees, it's a whole different subject that has little to do with economic opportunity, I focus on what majority of migrants are motivated by or what controls their choices and actions in practice (regardless of what we think or feel about it).
 

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
281
52
My point is not to debate intricacies of INA as opposed to Canadian immigration laws, nor am I comparing various parts of executive branch of the government in Canada vs. US.

I was specifically responding to a poster above, who suggested that American PRs stay in US due to stricter enforcement of RO, and that Canadian PRs leave Canada because they have lax enforcement of RO.


I disagreed with her suggestion. The reason for it is my observation of immigrants and their actions in the US versus in Canada:
Based on my observation and data we have, our LPRs staying in the US because there are plenty of jobs here (as opposed to scarcity of jobs in Canada).
It's not because of draconian enforcement of the law at the border. (By the way, for all the bad publicity US gets in the word, in reality we have some of the most lenient and friendly border agents in the world, and I know this because I traveled to many countries of western world and could compare how people standing in line in front of me were treated by one or other country's border agents).

Furthermore, if enforcement per se played major role, then it would deter any type of law breaking and breach at the border, especially when it comes to crossing the border illegally (which was highly discouraged during not so distant Trump years). But, as we all know very well (and saw with our own eyes on live TV streams), opposite kept happening at our border as the economic conditions in South America deteriorated, while job market boomed under the Trump administration.

My obvious conclusion is that it's not enforcement of law (or lack thereof) which pushes majority of the people one way or another, but the existence of economic opportunities.

P.S. I leave aside subject of refugees, it's a whole different subject that has little to do with economic opportunity, I focus on what majority of migrants are motivated by or what controls their choices and actions in practice (regardless of what we think or feel about it).
I actually agree with you on most points. Canada has an immigration system that welcomes new people daily but an employment system that often can seem to go out of its way to do the opposite.

Like you, I'm a Canadian PR with a powerful passport but unlike you I'm not American. My own landing process in Canada was completed within around 15 minutes. Although I'm visa exempt in the US, I think I've spent more than 15 minutes being processed there for just a short visit.

Refugees are an interesting side issue because Canada treats them like another immigrant stream whereas I understand the US grants them temporary probationary residence with a requirement to apply for a green card after one year.
 
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jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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I actually agree with you on most points. Canada has an immigration system that welcomes new people daily but an employment system that often can seem to go out of its way to do the opposite.

Like you, I'm a Canadian PR with a powerful passport but unlike you I'm not American. My own landing process in Canada was completed within around 15 minutes. Although I'm visa exempt in the US, I think I've spent more than 15 minutes being processed there for just a short visit.

Refugees are an interesting side issue because Canada treats them like another immigrant stream whereas I understand the US grants them temporary probationary residence with a requirement to apply for a green card after one year.
This is a bit off topic, so anyone not interested in this discussion please kindly skip.

To Bloodrose: It's not admission that takes a while in the US, it's the sheer volume of arrivals that puts you on waiting line (sometimes for an hour). Border agents have nothing to do with it. If they have 4 boots open and thousands of passengers streaming from the gates, there will be rather long wait to see the border agent. But once you reach them, it's fairly quick process. For me, as a Citizen, it's just "welcome to America, next!" (almost instantaneous admission), but overwhelming majority of non-immigrants spend slightly over 30 seconds at our airport POEs while the officer looks at their documents and stamps their passports. Trust me, I am very anti-bureaucratic and anti-Orwellian, I would speak up and criticize it if I saw it or was aware of it. To the contrary, I started to criticize US for being to lax and letting virtually anyone in since Biden was elected. I think it's a bad policy not to enforce the laws and let anyone in, we will pay high price for in in near future, with increase of crime and security threats, as well as depression of wages in unskilled market. Not good for our country.

As to refugees, you are correct, US doesn't grant them permanent residence at the arrival, they get protected status instead and are allowed to apply for PR after residing here for a year or so (not sure the exact length of time). The reason I kept them out of discussion, is that they (genuine refugees) are fleeing persecution and fear of death, rather than arrive for better job opportunities, and if they are real refugees then it's highly unlikely that they will ever be in breach of RO and go back to their country of origin.
 

CaBeaver

Champion Member
Dec 15, 2018
2,941
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...Canada has an immigration system that welcomes new people daily but an employment system that often can seem to go out of its way to do the opposite.
...
More work has to be done to retain talent and skills in Canada. Denying there is a problem in employing immigrants in Canada has a huge cost and significant implications. I basically agree that RO enforcement becomes less relevant automatically if most immigrants find decent jobs in Canada. There is no point to immigrate to a country where you can get a good job, and leave to another country instead after you land. Some immigrants do plan leaving because for example they pay less taxes somewhere else, but this is most likely a minority from all immigrants who leave Canada. Some immigrants are willing to compromise to stay in Canada if they don't find a decent job, but others are not. Just from these forums during the pandemic, it was clear that a significant portion of citizenship applicants were outside Canada after they submitted their citizenship application. Of course you can address this issue by a stricter RO enforcement, but the most effective way, in my opinion, is to help immigrants find jobs in their fields to establish themselves. The first job is the most difficult one. After that you have what-so-called "Canadian experience". Unfortunately, immigrants are on their own with limited connections and knowledge to navigate the job market from the moment they land, even for those who graduate from Canada.
 

SecularFirst

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Nov 21, 2015
435
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I have spent almost 6 years in Canada, got a maters degree in Canada, worked minimum wage job as well as top 1% job as well. I do see many problems in Canada. Insanely expensive housing, stagnant job and wage growth and punishing taxation for high earners are just a few examples. I do feel bad about young native Canadians, who are just starting their lives and have no hopes to ever be able to buy a house. Sure, there are small towns where housing is more affordable but there is no life in those towns. You can’t find a decent school for kids, a decent hospital or even a good doctor. Not the mention the insane cold and snow. Cold and gloomy weather is just a small issue if there is consistent job and wage growth and people get good wages to afford decent life. But wages are not growing for vast majority of people. People are mostly house poor in Canada. I have seen lot of tax evasion and abuse of social programs by people here. All these issues are pushing me to move out after citizenship. I am a regular person and I do believe if I feel this way, so do others.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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I have spent almost 6 years in Canada, got a maters degree in Canada, worked minimum wage job as well as top 1% job as well. I do see many problems in Canada. Insanely expensive housing, stagnant job and wage growth and punishing taxation for high earners are just a few examples. I do feel bad about young native Canadians, who are just starting their lives and have no hopes to ever be able to buy a house. Sure, there are small towns where housing is more affordable but there is no life in those towns. You can’t find a decent school for kids, a decent hospital or even a good doctor. Not the mention the insane cold and snow. Cold and gloomy weather is just a small issue if there is consistent job and wage growth and people get good wages to afford decent life. But wages are not growing for vast majority of people. People are mostly house poor in Canada. I have seen lot of tax evasion and abuse of social programs by people here. All these issues are pushing me to move out after citizenship. I am a regular person and I do believe if I feel this way, so do others.
Not sure I understand the point. The Canadian government is not holding you here; no need to wait for citizenship to leave. Whether YOU will find a "better" place to live, for YOU, I offer no guarantees or, for that matter, suggestions. The vast, vast, vast majority of people in the world have never even visited Canada, let alone thought about living here. One might say, understating it more than a bit, Canada is not for everyone. Not close.

And rather apparently Canada is not for you. Even though it appears Canada has something you want, and it appears you intend to take. Not an uncommon attitude. Not admirable either. According to the myth, an attitude that is not all that Canadian either. Like many myths, it is a nice myth even if it is just a myth.

I first came to Canada well more than a half century ago, briefly, and when still fairly young, still a half century ago, I even thought about moving here, which was also briefly. I did not think much of that idea again for the next quarter century plus some. But now I have been mostly here, in Canada, very grateful to be in Canada (and yeah there is a woman to blame, with much thanks) for more than twenty years, settled permanently here for well over a decade. Those who pay attention are aware, yeah, I have been around, and around. Or, as at least one here has said, rather unpleasantly, I am an old piece of . . . I'll say "stuff" because, as others might say, I can appear to be a bit of a stuffed-shirt . . . or full of you know what (it being obvious a few here are very familiar with you know what, wallowing in it even).

But for all its disadvantages, and lack of coolness, age can offer perspective, the broader and longer view. No guarantee it will. As an unsavory character in a novel I am absolutely certain you have never read, and never will, tends to repeat, self-deprecating, once a lawyer, always a liar . . . meaning, among other things, once a [you get the drift], always a . . . In contrast, I make an effort to take advantage of the opportunity to have perspective. But sure, sometimes the view is not especially appealing; cannot help, for example, to see that there is no shortage of narcissistic opportunists bad mouthing good people as they maraud and exploit their way toward perpetual unhappiness they are all too willing to blame on others. Some even blame Canadians, even as they say how sorry they are for some.

Or, let's just say I am old enough to see past the dance and pretense, old enough I ain't buying the crocodile tears.

You are undoubtedly right when you say:
"All these issues are pushing me to move out after citizenship. I am a regular person and I do believe if I feel this way, so do others."​

I may not be a regular person (one of those disadvantages that can come with age), but I know more than a few. I even know some who share that view, albeit it pops up in a forum like this far, far more often than in any other venue I visit, way, way more so than in real life encounters. The vast majority, regular persons and not so regular persons, and some rather remarkable persons as well, express a rather ebullient enthusiasm for the life they have in Canada, now and prospectively. One of the best days of my life was the day I took the oath of Canadian citizenship. And a big part of what made that day so wonderful was the utter joy and exhilaration so many others were expressing, without reservation, especially those who were sharing the experience of becoming a Canadian citizen together with several members of their family, and the relief others expressed having gotten to the oath after a long and arduous journey.

I can say, without reservation, I have been around. Canada is the right place for me. It is obviously the right place for the vast majority of people I know and interact with. . . . And, there are many more I know who do not live here who envy those who do live in Canada (between extended family, friends, and business acquaintances, I have a lot of contacts with people living in that rather worse than you describe Canada to be country, to our south, Americans who wish they could live in Canada).

Canada is not for everyone. Not close. And even if for many immigrants this is not the place, there are millions of immigrants for whom Canada is the place to make their life. I was just talking to a young immigrant who only recently came to this "small town" in Canada where, some might say, there is "no life," and they rather exuberantly expressed how happy they were to be here, in this small town. Despite being allergic to making confessions, I confessed to this young person that as much as I likewise truly love this small Canadian city, literally a thousand km away from any major Canadian city (not quite that far from a major metropolitan area in the States, but that's a country I prefer to avoid), I would not have been so happy here when I was young. The beaming face convinced me this young person was sincere and clearly not so shallow as I was at that age.

Canada is not for everyone. Not close. For many, however, Canada is home. Maybe it is a second home for some. For others, like me, where we came from has not been home for a long, long time. Not going back there. This is the place. Oh Canada oh yes indeed.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
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I have spent almost 6 years in Canada, got a maters degree in Canada, worked minimum wage job as well as top 1% job as well. I do see many problems in Canada. Insanely expensive housing, stagnant job and wage growth and punishing taxation for high earners are just a few examples. I do feel bad about young native Canadians, who are just starting their lives and have no hopes to ever be able to buy a house. Sure, there are small towns where housing is more affordable but there is no life in those towns. You can’t find a decent school for kids, a decent hospital or even a good doctor. Not the mention the insane cold and snow. Cold and gloomy weather is just a small issue if there is consistent job and wage growth and people get good wages to afford decent life. But wages are not growing for vast majority of people. People are mostly house poor in Canada. I have seen lot of tax evasion and abuse of social programs by people here. All these issues are pushing me to move out after citizenship. I am a regular person and I do believe if I feel this way, so do others.
The undeniable fact is: Canada does not need 400,000+ skilled immigrants per year, she simply doesn't have that many skilled vacancies waiting for immigrants to fill. Therefore, a lot of PRs who arrived under skilled immigrant category end up driving UBERs or leaving Canada, inevitably finding themselves in a breach of RO.

Question #1: Why bring 400,000+ PRs under "skilled immigrant" category, if jobs to hire them don't exist?

Question#2: Having done above (invited 400K+ skilled immigrants with no matching jobs in Canada), why penalize those who leave Canada while its' economy is in apparent crisis?

In a world governed by rational individuals (and not inept bureaucrats in lackeyish service of mega corporations), these PRs who are fooled by misleading promises and can't land a skilled job should be incentivized to leave Canada and stay outside of Canada while there is scarcity of jobs, and any further stream of skilled PRs should be immediately halted and reduced to such number as actually demanded by Canada's labor market, Instead, PR's who leave are uniformly penalized for breach of RO, while newer ending stream of new PRs keep flooding Canada at 400K+ rate.

As Einstein would say, the Universe is finite, while human ineptitude and stupidity truly has no ends.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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To be clear, about much that has been proffered here, there is much that makes no sense. No crystal ball necessary to recognize this is largely deliberate. Academic questions are sometimes worth exploring, and there is much about the Canadian immigration system raising questions that virtually demand to be asked (why Canada is struggling to get application processing moving efficiently again among them). But those are not the questions being asked here. Far from it.

It warrants repeating, with some emphasis, that the Canadian immigration system is not a hodge-podge of post-imperialist policies cooked up carelessly, without extensive study or intensive analysis. On the contrary, it is the product of many years of diligent effort by many highly experienced, well-informed, and well-intentioned Canadians collaborating, over the course of many, many decades, in an effort to balance a wide range of challenging interests, wrangling with the internal conflicts and external pressures, all while trying to keep pace with rapidly changing conditions in a world which has, it must be acknowledged, its problems. It is telling that in all the superficial and largely absurd caricatures of how the Canadian immigration system works proffered here, there is so little reference to actual sources of real information, barely so much as a passing mention of the Canadian Gazette and the massive volume of legislative history where the real story about what and how and when and why the nuts and bolts of Canadian immigration have been compiled into the working machine that imperfectly (and, yes, badly so sometimes) administers Canadian immigration. There is no hint that much of the malarkey posited here derives from doing any real homework. It needs to be seen for what it is . . . meaning mostly what it is not.

But for what it is as well. Leading to . . .

I generally avoid attributions of motive. That tends to be ad hominem. But when there is an elephant crashing about in the china shop, it really is just about the elephant crashing about in the china shop. By the way, elephants crashing about a china shop are likely to ignore any effort to engage in genuine discourse, shamelessly even. It's what they do. One might get the impression they take pride in ignoring what is contrary to their view, but nah, not really, that would be giving them more sentient credit than deserved.

It is hardly uncommon for the uninformed to weigh in blindly, even belligerently. And as it appears here, rather often questions can be a ruse, a vehicle for disruption, for delivering derision, utterly disingenuous. Their combination, an uninformed invasion bereft sincerity or authenticity, with malice aforethought, warrants some pushback. Which, perhaps, is futile. But sometimes silence is connivance if not a kind of collaboration.

The reference to post-imperialist policies also warrants some attention. Canada is not an innocent player. There is, as the saying goes, blood on its hands. History is the elephant that crashed about the shop yesterday. A regular mess made. Or, as some might say, a "fine mess" with no hint of anything fine about it.

The thing about navigating ahead is having to take account of where things are now, which has a lot to do with how they got here. Gets complicated. Very, very complicated. Goes way, way beyond this year's market forces, or even this decade's market and political forces. And Canadian immigration is way bigger than economic class incentives, even though the latter is a big part, it is just a part, and even among those immigrating in the economic class, be that the Express program or Provincial sponsorship programs, that immigration involves large numbers of family members coming to Canada with the primary applicant for PR. The point-system has little if any personal relevance for a very large percentage of those immigrating here, and even for those relying on it, for a large number of economic class immigrants (contrary to, well, what the ignorant proffer), economic opportunity is NOT the primary factor in their personal decision making. Their objective is a life in Canada, and economic class immigration is merely the means to get here. There are many (me included, and many others I know personally) for whom there was greater economic opportunity elsewhere, better financial prospects elsewhere, but for various reasons (as noted, in my case I am grateful there is a woman to blame) Canada is the place we chose to go, grateful the country gave us a pathway in, happy, very happy to be here. (I sometimes reflect on the days in my life I pursued wealth, sometimes a bit ruthlessly I am ashamed to admit, and compare who I was then to the life I have now; not much of a life many might sneer, but human-oh-human, it's a much better life, no comparison.)

Anyway, for those who might actually be sincere and serious about grappling with the real nuts and bolts of the Canadian immigration system, a little homework, digging into some real sources, will offer far, far more than the careless caricatures of it here. Maybe start here, at the Canada Gazette: https://gazette.gc.ca/accueil-home-eng.html

Edit to add: I am aware my perspective may be skewed some because I had, so to say, made my fortune before immigrating to Canada. It may indeed be too easy for me to undervalue the difficulties faced by those struggling to establish a career here. And my business still derives its revenue stream from outside Canada. But I try hard to listen and observe. I make an effort to learn and understand other perspectives. There is NO doubt, though, that much of what makes Canada an attractive destination for most of those who come here, has to do with values beyond the scope of economic opportunity; the latter is important, for almost all, and I do not mean to diminish the role economic factors have in an immigrant's decision-making . . . but for those whose primary target is economic opportunity, spoiler alert: this may indeed NOT be the place for you.
 
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jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
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More work has to be done to retain talent and skills in Canada. Denying there is a problem in employing immigrants in Canada has a huge cost and significant implications. I basically agree that RO enforcement becomes less relevant automatically if most immigrants find decent jobs in Canada. There is no point to immigrate to a country where you can get a good job, and leave to another country instead after you land. Some immigrants do plan leaving because for example they pay less taxes somewhere else, but this is most likely a minority from all immigrants who leave Canada. Some immigrants are willing to compromise to stay in Canada if they don't find a decent job, but others are not. Just from these forums during the pandemic, it was clear that a significant portion of citizenship applicants were outside Canada after they submitted their citizenship application. Of course you can address this issue by a stricter RO enforcement, but the most effective way, in my opinion, is to help immigrants find jobs in their fields to establish themselves. The first job is the most difficult one. After that you have what-so-called "Canadian experience". Unfortunately, immigrants are on their own with limited connections and knowledge to navigate the job market from the moment they land, even for those who graduate from Canada.
Lack of honesty is what is most disagreeable in this enterprise.

If there is no shortage of skilled workers in Canada (it's obvious that contrary is true, there is over abundance of skilled immigrants in over saturated market), then why not be transparent about it?

Suppose Canada has a peculiar need to bring hundreds of thousands of men and women to fill its' demand for menial/unskilled labor or live off welfare. Suppose then that for some reason (which we won't delve into) it wants all of its' immigrants to possess PHDs in sciences before they are allowed to immigrate and do those menial jobs. If this is the case, then why not say so? Why not say that Canada wants your doctors and engineers to come and sweep its' streets and flip its' burgers? Who among immigrants who chose to come to Canada under those terms could rightfully complain of it? If one was desirous of driving an UBER in Canada after spending decades of sleepless nights to get a PHDs or MD, how could he blame for his decision anyone other himself? Perhaps, there are doctors, engineers and many other skilled, highly educated and endowed with professional degrees people out there who don't mind picking up trash off the streets or driving UBER or living off welfare in Canada for the rest of their lives. Let them come and do those jobs if that's want Canada demands and they agree to do. But why not be transparent about it from the start? Just be honest about it so others (who are not opt to take up such an opportunity) can decide for themselves if it's worth while for them to spend their time and resources getting PR in Canada.

And if those who were misled already (and have got their PRs) wish to stay out of Canada for lack of skilled jobs they were enticed with, then why not at least extend them a courtesy of allowing to stay out of Canada, for as long as Canadian economy doesn't need their skills?
 
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SecularFirst

Hero Member
Nov 21, 2015
435
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Not sure I understand the point. The Canadian government is not holding you here; no need to wait for citizenship to leave. Whether YOU will find a "better" place to live, for YOU, I offer no guarantees or, for that matter, suggestions. The vast, vast, vast majority of people in the world have never even visited Canada, let alone thought about living here. One might say, understating it more than a bit, Canada is not for everyone. Not close.

And rather apparently Canada is not for you. Even though it appears Canada has something you want, and it appears you intend to take. Not an uncommon attitude. Not admirable either. According to the myth, an attitude that is not all that Canadian either. Like many myths, it is a nice myth even if it is just a myth.

I first came to Canada well more than a half century ago, briefly, and when still fairly young, still a half century ago, I even thought about moving here, which was also briefly. I did not think much of that idea again for the next quarter century plus some. But now I have been mostly here, in Canada, very grateful to be in Canada (and yeah there is a woman to blame, with much thanks) for more than twenty years, settled permanently here for well over a decade. Those who pay attention are aware, yeah, I have been around, and around. Or, as at least one here has said, rather unpleasantly, I am an old piece of . . . I'll say "stuff" because, as others might say, I can appear to be a bit of a stuffed-shirt . . . or full of you know what (it being obvious a few here are very familiar with you know what, wallowing in it even).

But for all its disadvantages, and lack of coolness, age can offer perspective, the broader and longer view. No guarantee it will. As an unsavory character in a novel I am absolutely certain you have never read, and never will, tends to repeat, self-deprecating, once a lawyer, always a liar . . . meaning, among other things, once a [you get the drift], always a . . . In contrast, I make an effort to take advantage of the opportunity to have perspective. But sure, sometimes the view is not especially appealing; cannot help, for example, to see that there is no shortage of narcissistic opportunists bad mouthing good people as they maraud and exploit their way toward perpetual unhappiness they are all too willing to blame on others. Some even blame Canadians, even as they say how sorry they are for some.

Or, let's just say I am old enough to see past the dance and pretense, old enough I ain't buying the crocodile tears.

You are undoubtedly right when you say:
"All these issues are pushing me to move out after citizenship. I am a regular person and I do believe if I feel this way, so do others."​

I may not be a regular person (one of those disadvantages that can come with age), but I know more than a few. I even know some who share that view, albeit it pops up in a forum like this far, far more often than in any other venue I visit, way, way more so than in real life encounters. The vast majority, regular persons and not so regular persons, and some rather remarkable persons as well, express a rather ebullient enthusiasm for the life they have in Canada, now and prospectively. One of the best days of my life was the day I took the oath of Canadian citizenship. And a big part of what made that day so wonderful was the utter joy and exhilaration so many others were expressing, without reservation, especially those who were sharing the experience of becoming a Canadian citizen together with several members of their family, and the relief others expressed having gotten to the oath after a long and arduous journey.

I can say, without reservation, I have been around. Canada is the right place for me. It is obviously the right place for the vast majority of people I know and interact with. . . . And, there are many more I know who do not live here who envy those who do live in Canada (between extended family, friends, and business acquaintances, I have a lot of contacts with people living in that rather worse than you describe Canada to be country, to our south, Americans who wish they could live in Canada).

Canada is not for everyone. Not close. And even if for many immigrants this is not the place, there are millions of immigrants for whom Canada is the place to make their life. I was just talking to a young immigrant who only recently came to this "small town" in Canada where, some might say, there is "no life," and they rather exuberantly expressed how happy they were to be here, in this small town. Despite being allergic to making confessions, I confessed to this young person that as much as I likewise truly love this small Canadian city, literally a thousand km away from any major Canadian city (not quite that far from a major metropolitan area in the States, but that's a country I prefer to avoid), I would not have been so happy here when I was young. The beaming face convinced me this young person was sincere and clearly not so shallow as I was at that age.

Canada is not for everyone. Not close. For many, however, Canada is home. Maybe it is a second home for some. For others, like me, where we came from has not been home for a long, long time. Not going back there. This is the place. Oh Canada oh yes indeed.
Chill dude. I got no issue with Canada’s reasons behind bringing in more immigrants. I am infact favor of immigration. I just stated the obvious. Look at the median income in major Canadian cities and look at the real estate prices. Do you think young native Canadians entering job market have enough wage growth to ever be able to buy decent family house and also pay for life’s necessities. The major portion of Canada’s new wealth generation depend upon real estate which in turn depend upon bringing in more and more new residents and new helicopter money.

About 9% Canadians live outside Canada according to one study. You mean to say all of them are narcissistic and opportunistic? Real opportunists are the people manipulating the real estate market and government assistance programs.
Do you think its moral to take 52% (in ontario) from someone working and making 220k and give them to someone not working, claiming unemployment, child benefits etc, living in a million $ houses?

Do you think its moral to let someone suffer in chronic pain and let them wait for surgeries in the name of equity?

Do you think its moral for government to put people’s parents in a lottery system for Sponsorship when they are clearly meeting fund requirements and can take care of their elderly? Seems like government is only interested in bringing in working people and students to pour in money in economy but barely interested in having those folks bring in their parents.
But I know most older Canadians would infact want this current system as their houses appreciate in value. They seems to overlook how this is impacting young native Canadians who dont even have the option to leave their native country for some other alternatives. 8 young Canadians work for me at my business and I can clearly see how frustrated they are with the economy. While most immigrants either come from very bad economic situation and they are grateful and happy to stay here as they are 100 times better than earlier, some high earners have the option to move out if thing dont work out for them but those young natives are stuck in this skewed economy.

My only point is that government should work more on policies to produce good paying manufacturing jobs, invest in making housing affordable, cut down abuse of social programs and make people work for all the benefits, not just game the system. They should tax based on networth rather than earned income. But they wont do that as it will affect politicians and wealthy.
 

steaky

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But I know most older Canadians would infact want this current system as their houses appreciate in value. They seems to overlook how this is impacting young native Canadians who dont even have the option to leave their native country for some other alternatives. 8 young Canadians work for me at my business and I can clearly see how frustrated they are with the economy. While most immigrants either come from very bad economic situation and they are grateful and happy to stay here as they are 100 times better than earlier, some high earners have the option to move out if thing dont work out for them but those young natives are stuck in this skewed economy.
They are already looking at alternatives:

https://globalnews.ca/news/8352598/study-gtha-renters-looking-out-of-market/
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Totally disagree. Even during Trump years, when enforcement of law at the border was at highest, we had relentless group of migrants arriving at our Southern border. It had and has everything to do with jobs (no jobs in SA, plenty of jobs in USA).

I personally couldn't care less about law enforcement of Canada. What do I care about it if I am not going to live there? I chose not to move to Canada for only one reason - I had no chance of landing a skilled job in Canada. No amount of enforcement will push me get there to flip burgers.
You can’t compare illegal migration and asylum seekers to PRs. Canada is much more lenient when it comes to ROs. First of all it only requires someone to live in Canada 730 days out of 5 years so PRs can remain outside Canada for full years. Many are also able to enter without being reported for not meeting their RO. In the US a green card holder has to spend at least 6 months in the US and the ROs are strictly enforced. If Canada enforced the ROs and reported anyone not meeting the 730 days in 5 years most PRs would make sure they meet their RO.