What is the chance of being denied a PRTD.

[Aleks30]

My daughter moved late to Canada and was in breach of permanent residency requirements.
She was able to enter to Canada on a valid card.
Then her Pr card has expired.
She applied to renew the Permanent Resident Card along with a letter explaining the reasons for her late entry into Canada.
The application was forwarded to the local IRCC office in Vancouver for review.
It was more 2 years ago.
All this time she works as a teacher at a school. She lives permanently in Canada. She pays taxes. More 2 years did not leave Canada at all.
For more than 2 years, her status for renew Pr card is "in process"
More than 2 years - NO ONE ANSWER from Vancouver ! At all!
Status for renew Pr card is "in process"- more than 2 years.
There is always one answer to a huge number of my emails at IRCC - "Afghanistan. Sorry."-and not a single answer from Vancouver in 2 years - at all.

Question.

For more than 2 years she did not leave Canada and did not visit her elderly parents.
If she goes to visit her parents in another country-What is the chance of being denied a PRTD.?
Let me remind you - her status right now for a renew card - "in process" (for over 2 years.)

 

[scylla]

My daughter moved late to Canada and was in breach of permanent residency requirements.
She was able to enter to Canada on a valid card.
Then her Pr card has expired.
She applied to renew the Permanent Resident Card along with a letter explaining the reasons for her late entry into Canada.
The application was forwarded to the local IRCC office in Vancouver for review.
It was more 2 years ago.
All this time she works as a teacher at a school. She lives permanently in Canada. She pays taxes. More 2 years did not leave Canada at all.
For more than 2 years, her status for renew Pr card is "in process"
More than 2 years - NO ONE ANSWER from Vancouver ! At all!
Status for renew Pr card is "in process"- more than 2 years.
There is always one answer to a huge number of my emails at IRCC - "Afghanistan. Sorry."-and not a single answer from Vancouver in 2 years - at all.

Question.

For more than 2 years she did not leave Canada and did not visit her elderly parents.
If she goes to visit her parents in another country-What is the chance of being denied a PRTD.?
Let me remind you - her status right now for a renew card - "in process" (for over 2 years.)

Her PR application has gone to secondary review since she didn't meet the residency obligation when she applied. It's a shame she didn't wait 2 years after arriving in Canada to apply for a new PR card. But what's done is done.

At this point she really shouldn't leave Canada. The best option is to remain in Canada.

 

[Aleks30]

We understand this.
Today, she already has ENOUGH days for the last 5 years (being in Canada (even more-As required by Canadian law.)
But her case may well be in the status"in process" of 3 years ... and 5 years ... and 10 years ... and no one will remember about it.

and -already she has enough days of permanent residency in Canada to complete the PRTD application.

 

[canuck78]

We understand this.
Today, she already has ENOUGH days for the last 5 years (being in Canada (even more-As required by Canadian law.)
But her case may well be in the status"in process" of 3 years ... and 5 years ... and 10 years ... and no one will remember about it.

The time in Canada will not count if the PR card renewal is denied which is why she shouldn’t have renewed her PR card before completing the 2 years. Until she receives her new PR card she is at risk of losing her status if she leaves Canada. The delays due to covid and Afghanistan may actually work out in her favour. If processing had been faster there was likely a higher chances of PR card renewal refusal.

 

[Aleks30]

As I heard, it is PEOPLE who are dealing with cases (and not machines that just look at the number of days)
The emigration officers have no goal of getting rid of people; they just want to make sure that the person is already living permanently.

Another thing is strange.
Not a single answer from Vancouver in 2 years.
It was as if no one had even opened her case.

 

[canuck78]

As I heard, it is PEOPLE who are dealing with cases (and not machines that just look at the number of days)
The emigration officers have no goal of getting rid of people; they just want to make sure that the person is already living permanently.

Another thing is strange.
Not a single answer from Vancouver in 2 years.
It was as if no one had even opened her case.

IRCC goal is to ensure that people meet their RO when people apply to renew their PR card. It is actually quite lucky that the process has been delayed because there is a stronger argument that your daughter has become established in Canada although that doesn’t 100% guarantee approval. Too late now bu5 if you are no5 reported at the border when not meeting your RO you shouldn’t apply to renew your PR card until you are back in compliance with your RO. Has she ordered her GCMS notes? As previously noted her file was likely sent to secondary review because she didn’t meet her RO and will likely need to pick-up her card in person even if approved. How many days had she spent in Canada during a 5 year period when she applied for the PR card renewal?

 

[Aleks30]

When she applied for PR, there were very few days.
BUT - she described the reasons ..
Army. Women also serve in my country.
If she left her home country without doing military service, upon returning to her parents, she would go to prison.
She also finished her studies as a teacher, and it is thanks to this that she is now working at the school.

 

[Aleks30]

To be honest, we ourselves want to meet with the emigration officer and explain everything to him.
But this cannot be done in Canada.
Our daughter can visit us ONLY during school holidays, and the time for receiving PRTD is much longer, which makes the situation more complicated.

My daughter has a hard time prolonging her health insurance .... Difficulties with renewing her driver's license ... Life is a nightmare. Without a valid card.
But ircc doesn't care that much.

 

[canuck78]

When she applied for PR, there were very few days.
BUT - she described the reasons ..
Army. Women also serve in my country.
If she left her home country without doing military service, upon returning to her parents, she would go to prison.
She also finished her studies as a teacher, and it is thanks to this that she is now working at the school.

She made a choice to pursue her studies in her home country and not in Canada so that is considered a personal choice.

 

[canuck78]

To be honest, we ourselves want to meet with the emigration officer and explain everything to him.
But this cannot be done in Canada.
Our daughter can visit us ONLY during school holidays, and the time for receiving PRTD is much longer, which makes the situation more complicated.

My daughter has a hard time prolonging her health insurance .... Difficulties with renewing her driver's license ... Life is a nightmare. Without a valid card.
But ircc doesn't care that much.

Unfortunately there are consequences for not meeting her RO. There is a good chance that she won’t lose her PR status which is the number one risk when not meeting your RO.

 

[Aleks30]

You are wrong. She graduated as a teacher. And she teaches in Canada not English - but the language of her native country where she came from. So there was no choice to continue this in Canada.

 

[armoured]

You are wrong. She graduated as a teacher. And she teaches in Canada not English - but the language of her native country where she came from. So there was no choice to continue this in Canada.

Whether or not the reasons are good, the PR renewal process doesn't work that way - it's not the stage at which one presents 'reasons' to waive the RO, as they do not do that.

You may want to consult a lawyer to see if there is a way to speed this up now that she has enough days, perhaps withdraw and re-apply, or otherwise try to dislodge the app from where it is stuck. I don't know.

I think the main thing of importance is that they haven't formally started the process of reporting/repealing (so that her days since applying are continuing to count towards residency obligation), and a lawyer may be able to help with determining that.

Good luck.

BTW one way of looking at this - if IRCC has not started any steps that would disallow her current days to count towards RO - is that this was a form of leniency by IRCC to let her application "age into" residency obligation compliance instead of bringing any bureaucratic hammers down. It may be little comfort but it should be some.

 

[Aleks30]

Thanks for the opinions.

 

[dpenabill]

@Aleks30 . . . Quite likely your daughter should go to a lawyer.

While I will elaborate some, with explanations, there are signs in what you describe suggesting there is a PROBLEM and that PROBLEM might NOT be about the Residency Obligation. In fact, she appears to be solidly in compliance with the RO now. Subject to exceptions, a PR gets credit for days in Canada AFTER making a PR card application (yes, this is contrary to some erroneous views expressed by other forum members), so unless one of the exceptions applies, such as a 44(1) Report has at some point been prepared, having been in Canada for the last two plus years she is in RO compliance. There should be NO risk, now, of losing PR status for a breach of the RO.

BUT there appears to be a significant risk of something else going on. Not all referrals to the local office are RO related. At this stage it appears fairly likely this delay is NOT RO related (not directly). Again, I will elaborate but it is quite apparent there is a real risk of some other problem, and if at all feasible, it is probably time for her to get a lawyer.

My daughter moved late to Canada and was in breach of permanent residency requirements.
She was able to enter to Canada on a valid card.
Then her Pr card has expired.
She applied to renew the Permanent Resident Card along with a letter explaining the reasons for her late entry into Canada.
The application was forwarded to the local IRCC office in Vancouver for review.
It was more 2 years ago.
All this time she works as a teacher at a school. She lives permanently in Canada. She pays taxes. More 2 years did not leave Canada at all.
For more than 2 years, her status for renew Pr card is "in process"
More than 2 years - NO ONE ANSWER from Vancouver ! At all!
Status for renew Pr card is "in process"- more than 2 years.
There is always one answer to a huge number of my emails at IRCC - "Afghanistan. Sorry."-and not a single answer from Vancouver in 2 years - at all.

Question.

For more than 2 years she did not leave Canada and did not visit her elderly parents.
If she goes to visit her parents in another country-What is the chance of being denied a PRTD.?
Let me remind you - her status right now for a renew card - "in process" (for over 2 years.)

It is not possible to offer much in regards to the prospects of being issued a PR TD if your daughter goes abroad without a new PR card . . . if it was only about RO compliance, odds should be high there would be no problem. But, again, there appears to be something else at stake here.

The facts you describe are outside the norms of what we ordinarily see. For example, it is common to see non-routine processing of a PR card application referred to Secondary Review and this taking as long as and maybe a little longer than a year. Not two years.
Suggesting there may be something else going on. As noted, repeated for emphasis: your daughter should probably see a lawyer.

If IRCC officials handling the PR card application perceive reason to think the PR is outside Canada, IRCC sometimes waits until the PR has returned to Canada (or has applied for a PR TD) to complete processing the application. This could explain the anomaly of such a long processing time except you say she has remained in Canada this whole time. So, again, this suggests something else is going on.

Something seems off. As I initially noted, for example, referrals to the local office are not always about RO compliance. Other reasons for the referral include questions or issues "relating to the reliability of the applicant's information, identity, or admissibility." This can include, for example, questions about what information a PR gave at a Port-of-Entry when returning to Canada and whether there were any misrepresentations made (changes in the law a while ago have extended the scope of what misrepresentations can be grounds for inadmissibility and termination of PR status, which appear to include any misrepresentations made during any entry into Canada).

In particular, if the issue holding up further processing of the PR card application was RO compliance, the local office would ordinarily mail the PR a request for further information (as long as IRCC has the correct contact information for the PR; if not, that opens other possible problems; I will assume this is not the problem since it appears you have at least confirmed the PRC application is in process; reminder, your daughter should be able to confirm the PRC application is still in process in eCas). The request for additional information would be either a letter form of a residence questionnaire (possibly through email these days) or IMM 5511 (this may be an out-of-date form previously in use). Absent a request for additional information (as long as the application is actually in process), it is highly unlikely what is happening is about RO compliance.

Thus, overall, I am hesitant to offer much more because of this, because it appears there is something else going on, and whatever that is could make all the difference. So, again, she should probably see a lawyer.

However, some of what has been posted above is WRONG or at least misleading. In particular, contrary to some comments here, a PR is entitled to the benefit of counting days in Canada after applying for a PR card.

Subject to whatever else might be the problem, if she has been IN Canada for the last two years she is now in compliance with the Residency Obligation . . . UNLESS, she has been issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility.

In an effort to bring closure to questions about credit toward RO compliance after applying for a PR card, I will address that further in another post.

 

[dpenabill]

Credit Toward RO Compliance After Applying for PR Card:

An effort to bring closure to this issue.

The time in Canada will not count if the PR card renewal is denied which is why she shouldn’t have renewed her PR card before completing the 2 years. Until she receives her new PR card she is at risk of losing her status if she leaves Canada.

In particular, as I noted in my previous post, and yes this is contrary to other comments here in addition to yours, a PR is entitled to the benefit of counting days in Canada AFTER applying for a PR card. There really is no doubt about this, not only based on the statutes and regulations, but also on Program Delivery Instructions, Operational Manuals, Operational Bulletins, and the fact there are no actual cases so much as hinting otherwise. To be frank, it is hard to understand why the contrary view has persisted in this forum.

Moreover, the procedure followed when IRCC has concerns about RO compliance in regards to a PR applying for a PR card does NOT involve denying the application. That is NOT how it works. There is, rather, a referral to the local office, and if the local office cannot determine based on the file that the PR is either in RO compliance or should be allowed to retain PR status for H&C reasons, the local office conducts a formal Residency Determination. The PR will be given credit for days IN Canada during the preceding five years, up to that date, the date of the formal Residency Determination. If based on that examination the local office determines the PR is not in RO compliance and there are not sufficient H&C reasons to allow the PR to retain PR status despite not being in compliance, a 44(1) Report is prepared, and the process for 44(1) Reports is followed.

That is, if in processing the PR card application IRCC determines the PR is inadmissible for failing to comply with the RO, it does not deny the application but, rather, commences the 44(1) Report process. (With the possibility of a rare exception, many years ago now, in a case involving a PR abroad; and that procedure would be contrary to current PDIs; and that PR was not in Canada after applying for the PR card.)

Yes, of course the PR who applies for a PR card without being in compliance is at risk of a decision terminating PR status . . . but if the number of days IN Canada after applying are enough to get the PR in compliance BEFORE the formal Residency Determination examination (which does not happen until AFTER the PR is given an opportunity to submit supplemental information), the PR will get the benefit of those days.

That is, as long as a 44(1) Report has not been prepared, and the PR has not been denied a PR TD, the time IN Canada AFTER applying for a new PR card does count toward meeting the Residency Obligation.

There really is no other way to construe or apply the applicable statutes and regulations, which are:

Section 28(2)(a)(i) IRPA, which is here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#docCont​

Section (Regulation) 62(1) IRPR (Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations), which is here https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-10.html#h-686425​

Confusion about this probably stems from the basic procedure according to which the Residency Determination is based on the date that an application is officially received. But as the most recent update of Program Delivery Instructions states:

Using this date does not disadvantage the applicant in any way if the formal assessment of an application is delayed for any period of time following receipt of the application.​

At examination, it is sufficient for those who have been permanent residents for 5 years or more to demonstrate that they have met their residency requirements in the 5 years immediately before examination​

See PDI "Permanent resident status determination here https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card/permanent-resident-determination.html and in particular the section titled "Determining if residency requirements are met"​

Note, NOT during the five years before the date the PR card application was made, or received, but BEFORE EXAMINATION. And, again, there really is no other way to construe or apply the applicable statutes and regulations.

The confusion may have been further perpetuated by previous versions of the PDIs and Operational Manuals which used permissive language describing this procedure, like the older Operational Manual ENF 27 regarding Permanent Resident Card, which in section 8.7 said that exceptions to using the date of the application . . .

. . . can be made to take into account the five-year period immediately prior to the time that the application is reviewed by an officer, if it allows for the applicant to benefit from the processing delay on IRCC’s part.​

Again, actually the applicable law requires the PR to be given such credit. That is, instead of using the word "can" here, this operational guideline should have made clear what the current PDI does, that the officer must give credit for days in Canada up to the date of the examination.

Sources:

Section 28(2)(a)(i) IRPA, which is here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#docCont​

Section (Regulation) 62(1) IRPR (Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations), which is here https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-10.html#h-686425​

PDI "Permanent resident status determination https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card/permanent-resident-determination.html​

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/updates/2020-pr-status-determination.html​

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card/permanent-resident-status.html​

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card.html​

​

Operational Manuals in pdf available through link at IRCC website here https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html​

ENF 23 – Loss of Permanent Resident Status​

ENF 27 – PR Card​

OP 10 – Permanent Residency Status Determination​

*** All PR card applications are delayed for "a period of time following receipt of the application," since there is no same day as received service; so this qualifying factor does not change the way the process actually works, which is to allow credit (as the law mandates) for days in Canada up to the date there is a formal residency determination examination.

I hope this is sufficient to put to rest the view that days in Canada after applying for a PR card do not count toward RO compliance.