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Permanent Residency Obligation

cpatnala

Full Member
Aug 10, 2017
38
1
Hello Everyone,

Myself i am a canadian citizen. I have Sponsored my wife in 2018. we have a COPR and PR card with us. We travelled to canada in July 2018 and stayed only for 15 days. We both of us left Canada to India in 2018. due to my wife health issues and she had surgery in 2021 and moreover the pandemic was affected due to flight wasn't available. we couldn't able to travel to canada. right now we are planning to come back to canada. but we are currently have 600+ days left over for PR Renewal. Please help me with this matter.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,301
8,902
If her pr card is valid, she will be admitted to Canada. She could be asked questions about residency obligation at border. Return soonest, and less chance of having issues.

Your biggest issue will likely be that future travel outside of Canada will have some risks - plan on as little travel as possible. She should not apply for new pr card until back in compliance (ie at least two years in Canada).
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Hello Everyone,

Myself i am a canadian citizen. I have Sponsored my wife in 2018. we have a COPR and PR card with us. We travelled to canada in July 2018 and stayed only for 15 days. We both of us left Canada to India in 2018. due to my wife health issues and she had surgery in 2021 and moreover the pandemic was affected due to flight wasn't available. we couldn't able to travel to canada. right now we are planning to come back to canada. but we are currently have 600+ days left over for PR Renewal. Please help me with this matter.
If you travel together and come to Canada relatively soon, her valid PR card should readily suffice.

As @armoured noted, the sooner the trip to Canada the less risk there is of having issues.

There are some more complex aspects to your situation, and I will discuss those. But if you relocate to Canada soon and actually settle in Canada, the more complex aspects will not affect you or your wife's situation much, if at all. So if you come soon, if you know you will be coming somewhat soon, you can skip the rest of this.

If her pr card is valid, she will be admitted to Canada. She could be asked questions about residency obligation at border. Return soonest, and less chance of having issues.

Your biggest issue will likely be that future travel outside of Canada will have some risks - plan on as little travel as possible. She should not apply for new pr card until back in compliance (ie at least two years in Canada).
As I noted, there are some more complex tangents in the OP's situation.

Ordinarily there is no concern about Residency Obligation compliance for a PR whose spouse is a Canadian citizen as long as they are living together, since ordinarily living together is sufficient to get credit toward the RO. This is the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit toward meeting the RO.

However, it appears this might be one of the scenarios where the citizen made the sponsorship application while abroad, which necessarily required a concrete plan to relocate to Canada, but then did not follow through with relocating. Which can bring up questions and complications ranging from who-accompanied-whom to misrepresentation (as to plans to relocate in Canada) in the sponsorship application. (Discussed at length in other topics.)

So I agree with the general observation about relocating to Canada soon, as that is what is least likely to trigger questions. If they are traveling together that should help reduce the risk of a challenging RO compliance examination at the Port-of-Entry upon arrival.

Risk of potentially running into issues increases if the PR needs to apply for a PR Travel Document. So sooner is better but at the very latest probably important to make the trip here while the PR still has a valid PR card. For emphasis: even sooner than that is still better by far.

Assuming the OP and PR follow through and come to Canada, to settle in Canada, more than a year prior to the PR's current PR card expiring, it should be OK to make the application for a new PR card three or so months before the current one expires, even though the PR has not spent 730 days in Canada since landing . . . once settled and here for long enough that appears real, there should be no problem getting the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit toward meeting the RO.

Similarly in regards to international travel AFTER returning to Canada and ACTUALLY SETTLING in Canada, short trips abroad should be OK, especially if traveling together. Spending some real time settled in Canada before traveling is safer, in terms of being less likely to run into RO related issues, and not going abroad for extended stays for the first two years.

Another for emphasis: continuing to live abroad for an extended period could significantly increase the risk of problems. We do not know much about the numbers in regards to these situations, about what percentage of PRs in similar scenarios have run into RO compliance challenges, other than to know it happens. The safe approach is to relocate to Canada sooner rather than later, and settle in Canada.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,301
8,902
If you travel together and come to Canada relatively soon, her valid PR card should readily suffice.

As @armoured noted, the sooner the trip to Canada the less risk there is of having issues.
Yes, and for the record (and for any others reading who might think their situations similar to the person who started this thread) - @dpenabill's comments are for more extensive, and my response was limited or targetted to this fairly narrow/specific case.

[And plenty of threads that cover other more complex scenarios...]
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,619
13,534
Hello Everyone,

Myself i am a canadian citizen. I have Sponsored my wife in 2018. we have a COPR and PR card with us. We travelled to canada in July 2018 and stayed only for 15 days. We both of us left Canada to India in 2018. due to my wife health issues and she had surgery in 2021 and moreover the pandemic was affected due to flight wasn't available. we couldn't able to travel to canada. right now we are planning to come back to canada. but we are currently have 600+ days left over for PR Renewal. Please help me with this matter.
Would add that if your wife had remained in Canada she would have had access to healthcare so there wasn’t a need to be abroad to access healthcare services.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,619
13,534
If you travel together and come to Canada relatively soon, her valid PR card should readily suffice.

As @armoured noted, the sooner the trip to Canada the less risk there is of having issues.

There are some more complex aspects to your situation, and I will discuss those. But if you relocate to Canada soon and actually settle in Canada, the more complex aspects will not affect you or your wife's situation much, if at all. So if you come soon, if you know you will be coming somewhat soon, you can skip the rest of this.



As I noted, there are some more complex tangents in the OP's situation.

Ordinarily there is no concern about Residency Obligation compliance for a PR whose spouse is a Canadian citizen as long as they are living together, since ordinarily living together is sufficient to get credit toward the RO. This is the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit toward meeting the RO.

However, it appears this might be one of the scenarios where the citizen made the sponsorship application while abroad, which necessarily required a concrete plan to relocate to Canada, but then did not follow through with relocating. Which can bring up questions and complications ranging from who-accompanied-whom to misrepresentation (as to plans to relocate in Canada) in the sponsorship application. (Discussed at length in other topics.)

So I agree with the general observation about relocating to Canada soon, as that is what is least likely to trigger questions. If they are traveling together that should help reduce the risk of a challenging RO compliance examination at the Port-of-Entry upon arrival.

Risk of potentially running into issues increases if the PR needs to apply for a PR Travel Document. So sooner is better but at the very latest probably important to make the trip here while the PR still has a valid PR card. For emphasis: even sooner than that is still better by far.

Assuming the OP and PR follow through and come to Canada, to settle in Canada, more than a year prior to the PR's current PR card expiring, it should be OK to make the application for a new PR card three or so months before the current one expires, even though the PR has not spent 730 days in Canada since landing . . . once settled and here for long enough that appears real, there should be no problem getting the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit toward meeting the RO.

Similarly in regards to international travel AFTER returning to Canada and ACTUALLY SETTLING in Canada, short trips abroad should be OK, especially if traveling together. Spending some real time settled in Canada before traveling is safer, in terms of being less likely to run into RO related issues, and not going abroad for extended stays for the first two years.

Another for emphasis: continuing to live abroad for an extended period could significantly increase the risk of problems. We do not know much about the numbers in regards to these situations, about what percentage of PRs in similar scenarios have run into RO compliance challenges, other than to know it happens. The safe approach is to relocate to Canada sooner rather than later, and settle in Canada.
Disagree that it will be safe to travel outside Canada for short visits until the wife is back in compliance with her RO. Any trip outside Canada could lead to being reported for not meeting RO. Given that the wife never established herself in Canada it will be quite difficult to show that she was accompanying her husband abroad from 2018 when she got PR.
 

cpatnala

Full Member
Aug 10, 2017
38
1
Guys thanks for the valuable outputs to the members. If i travel along with my wife. It won't be an issue. Currently I am having only 600+ days. Final conclusion is required from the members end.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,301
8,902
Guys thanks for the valuable outputs to the members. If i travel along with my wife. It won't be an issue. Currently I am having only 600+ days. Final conclusion is required from the members end.
Don't understand your question. You said you are a citizen, you have no need to count days.
 

drrajazubair

Newbie
Jul 31, 2015
8
0
Hi, i m PR of canada, since 2016, i came here in August t 2016 and stayed only 143 days, then i went back to Pakistan, and again came here in canada on march 2020, no body ask me for my residency oblivation at port of entry, i again went back to Pakiatan, and again arrived on September 2021, again no body ask me for my residency obligations, my card expire on 1st of October, i have submitted my case to my lawyer for to over come obligations and to request for renewal of PR card
My question is here that if port of entry check residence obligations or if they have record of my exit from canada, because both of time when i left from airport there isn't any record keeping for exit passengers, which immigration canada started in june 2020, they have mentioned it on their website, so i want to know if i can take risk for direct renewal keeping in view immigration department don't have my exit records or ll do as per lawyer, because lawyer is asking for to be truthful, but don't know either it lead to some diaster for me, as i have to go back to Pakistan again this week,
So can any body help me in this matter, as at last time i entered canada with only 5 days left for PR card expiry and no body ask me at port of entry,
More over i have a daughter, Canadian citizen under the custody of my wife who got sepration in 2018, and my lawyer wants me to adopt this plea rather to take risk, but this ll took longer as i have to also gain access to my daughter thru some legal means which she is (my wife) not cooperating, even though it's my legal right
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,619
13,534
Guys thanks for the valuable outputs to the members. If i travel along with my wife. It won't be an issue. Currently I am having only 600+ days. Final conclusion is required from the members end.
You can’t count on days accompanying your spouse until your spouse has established herself in Canada. Without ever establishing your life in Canada together it could be very difficult to get time accompanying Canadian spouses credited towards RO. The argument will be that since you and your spouse never established your lives in Canada she can’t be accompanying you abroad.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,619
13,534
Hi, i m PR of canada, since 2016, i came here in August t 2016 and stayed only 143 days, then i went back to Pakistan, and again came here in canada on march 2020, no body ask me for my residency oblivation at port of entry, i again went back to Pakiatan, and again arrived on September 2021, again no body ask me for my residency obligations, my card expire on 1st of October, i have submitted my case to my lawyer for to over come obligations and to request for renewal of PR card
My question is here that if port of entry check residence obligations or if they have record of my exit from canada, because both of time when i left from airport there isn't any record keeping for exit passengers, which immigration canada started in june 2020, they have mentioned it on their website, so i want to know if i can take risk for direct renewal keeping in view immigration department don't have my exit records or ll do as per lawyer, because lawyer is asking for to be truthful, but don't know either it lead to some diaster for me, as i have to go back to Pakistan again this week,
So can any body help me in this matter, as at last time i entered canada with only 5 days left for PR card expiry and no body ask me at port of entry,
More over i have a daughter, Canadian citizen under the custody of my wife who got sepration in 2018, and my lawyer wants me to adopt this plea rather to take risk, but this ll took longer as i have to also gain access to my daughter thru some legal means which she is (my wife) not cooperating, even though it's my legal right
How many days have you spent in Canada since October 2016? You got lucky by not being reported. Not sure why you are trying to renew your PR card without meeting your RO? You could lose your PR status. You should not renew your PR card until you meet the 730 day in the past 5 years. You should not leave Canada because your chances of being reported without a valid PR card increase substantially. You won’t be able to fly into Canada without a valid PR card. If you do leave Canada your only option to reenter will be via the US border.
 

drrajazubair

Newbie
Jul 31, 2015
8
0
How many days have you spent in Canada since October 2016? You got lucky by not being reported. Not sure why you are trying to renew your PR card without meeting your RO? You could lose your PR status. You should not renew your PR card until you meet the 730 day in the past 5 years. You should not leave Canada because your chances of being reported without a valid PR card increase substantially. You won’t be able to fly into Canada without a valid PR card. If you do leave Canada your only option to reenter will be via the US border.
 

drrajazubair

Newbie
Jul 31, 2015
8
0
I just spent total of 150 days since October 2016, but i have to return back to complete my last semester for the studies, more over as i just remarried that y i need to be with my wife, don't know what would happens, but at this moment i have to travel back,
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,619
13,534
I just spent total of 150 days since October 2016, but i have to return back to complete my last semester for the studies, more over as i just remarried that y i need to be with my wife, don't know what would happens, but at this moment i have to travel back,
Still not understanding why you are applying for a new PR card. Studying abroad is not a accepted reason to not meet your RO. It is viewed as a personal choice. Applying to renew your PR card is likely to lead to yo7 losing your PR status. How soon after landing in Canada did you separate from your first spouse? Looks like you only spent 143 days in Canada after landing before returning to Pakistan and why did you return to Pakistan in 2017? When did you get divorced? When was your child born? When did you get remarried? You are very far from meeting your RO. You have already lost 30-60+ days because you can no longer count the days between August 2016-October 2016. You also can’t apply for PR card renewal when you are outside Canada so if you don’t apply before your return to Pakistan you could be denied on that fact alone.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Guys thanks for the valuable outputs to the members. If i travel along with my wife. It won't be an issue. Currently I am having only 600+ days. Final conclusion is required from the members end.
While perhaps for different reasons, like @armoured I do not quite understand this post.

Apart from that, my general sense remains consistent with the main point in what @armoured and I have offered: coming here, and coming to STAY, and doing this fairly soon, should be OK. Should be, not necessarily will be.

There are some risks. The sooner you come, the lower those risks. The longer you wait to come, the bigger the risks.

But that is NOT the same as assuring you that traveling together means there "won't be an issue." Traveling together should lower the PR spouse's risks, and if the trip is fairly soon the risks should be quite low (which appears to be contrary to what @canuck78 says), but that does not mean it is guaranteed it will be OK. Odds are good it will be OK, that there will NOT be an issue. But this is NOT for-sure. And not all of us agree about this.

Moreover, in particular, hopefully you understand that what we say here is not official, not for-sure what will actually happen.

Which brings up the part of your post that most confused me: "Final conclusion is required from the members end."

Whatever members' final conclusion is being referenced, hopefully you understand this forum has NO real say in how things will go, and what members post here is largely information and opinion subject to all the caveats that apply to open venues on the internet. Including, especially, the caveat that except to the extent information is documented by verifiable official and authoritative sources, what is posted here is not even close to definitive.

Which again brings up the direct conflict, for example, between my observations and those posted by @canuck78 in regards to prospective risks when arriving at a Port-of-Entry. Moreover, it appears our observations not only differ in regards to risks attendant short trips outside Canada AFTER returning to and getting WELL-SETTLED in Canada, but also in regards to the risk of a formal Residency Obligation examination upon arrival at the PoE even if you make the trip fairly soon.

For purposes of deciding what YOU do, and WHEN, your decision-making is personal to you, FOR YOU to DECIDE, your call, based on all the information you have considered. All we can do here, all the "members" of this forum can offer, is our best understanding of how the system works, and as evident here, sometimes we have different views about some of these things.

In regards to your report about "having only 600+ days," versus YOUR status (as a PR or citizen) . . . my observations before and those that follow are based on YOU being a Canadian citizen and your PR spouse being the one who has "only 600+ days" . . . which I interpret to be about the number of days left on the calendar she has to meet her RO obligation for the first five years.

Which if that is the scenario:
-- if she has so far only been IN Canada 15 days, and
-- there are approximately 600 days left in her first five years, and
-- if ONLY days actually in Canada are counted
-- THEN she is NOW short, NOW in BREACH

In which event if she arrives at a Port-of-Entry next week, say, and she is examined at that time in regards to complying with the RO, and in that examination she is only given credit for days actually IN Canada so far, no credit for days living with a Canadian citizen spouse, she could be Reported and issued a Departure Order, a decision that terminates her PR status UNLESS it is successfully appealed.

I doubt that is how it will go . . . noting, again, the SOONER you get here, the better the odds it will go OK.

That is again, if you are traveling together, finally making the move to come here to settle, and this happens fairly soon, the odds of that kind of examination are quite likely very low. Rather, the odds most likely lean heavily toward being waived through with no referral to an Immigration Secondary screening, but even if that happens, and you are together, the odds are that even then there will not be a problem(noting, though, both of you may have to answer some questions). In contrast, again, @canuck78 appears to be asserting otherwise. And that is based on relatively the same reason for disagreeing with my other, previous observation that AFTER coming to Canada and being WELL-SETTLED here, short trips abroad should also be OK.

This disagreement is specifically about whether or not your spouse (assuming YOU are a Canadian citizen and the two of you have been living together abroad) will be given credit toward RO compliance for the days the two of you have been living together abroad. This is about the credit a PR can be given for time outside Canada accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad.

My view is that if you arrive soon there is little need to worry about this. Since I am NO expert, the best I can offer to support that is some further explanation for this view. To do that, I will further address these matters in the topic most focused on the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/page-5.

Thus, in particular, I will respond there to the following posts:

Disagree that it will be safe to travel outside Canada for short visits until the wife is back in compliance with her RO. Any trip outside Canada could lead to being reported for not meeting RO. Given that the wife never established herself in Canada it will be quite difficult to show that she was accompanying her husband abroad from 2018 when she got PR.
You can’t count on days accompanying your spouse until your spouse has established herself in Canada. Without ever establishing your life in Canada together it could be very difficult to get time accompanying Canadian spouses credited towards RO. The argument will be that since you and your spouse never established your lives in Canada she can’t be accompanying you abroad.
 
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