Confused about PR renewal - please advise

[mastersboy]

If one has met the residency requirements for PR renewal (say for e.g. they have 850 residency days), and since then they have taken up a U.S. job, have an apartment lease in the U.S., a U.S. driver's license. However, this person also maintains a residence in Canada (joint lease with spouse who lives in Canada). As per the current PR renewal laws/regulations, At the time of submitting the application for PR renewal, does the persona need to be:

1. Physically present in Canada? (see screenshot below from Canada.ca about PR card renewal eligibility)
2. Does the person need to have their primary physical address in Canada? (The PR renewal form asks for "your current residential address in Canada" as shown in the second screenshot below - does this "current residential address in Canada" mean you need to be primarily living here?)
3. Depending on your answer to question #2 above, in this example does the person have to sever all ties to the U.S. and come back to Canada to apply for PR renewal or just maintain a Canadian apartment lease or even just visit Canada for a few days while sending the PR renewal form be enough?
4. If after staying in Canada for 850 days in first 3 years, one stays out of Canada for 1.5 years (cant even come back on weekends due to COVID quarantine), will CBSA challenge the PR when trying to reenter after a lengthy absence? If CBSA recommends that PR be revoked, can one leave Canada while the appeal is in process?

Please consider answering each question itemwise. Thanks!

Inviting @dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured @harirajmohan @rajkamalmohanram @Sambade @EUK @SeanTor @November2015 @Paul09 @Fawny43 @shibdutta @PranavKat @drkv78 @priyavig @Lex2019 @AAALLL @SAS_RAZA @nathaniel_d @hans42 @O'canada @TARTAR @Canadamylove2020 @s23srinivas @Anastasia_Y @bluffmaster88 @Chevy23 @NN74 @Seym @myscanada @qorax @avigtr @vitoriaboy @TickleMeElmo @anuragmaneesha @civilengr @keesio @Rob_TO @zardoz @JHT @Chevy23 @NN74 @Seym @myscanada @qorax @avigtr @vitoriaboy @TickleMeElmo @anuragmaneesha @civilengr @keesio @Lex2019 @Rob_TO @zardoz @rajkamalmohanram @Sambade @EUK @SeanTor @November2015 @Paul09 @Fawny43 @shibdutta @PranavKat @drkv78 @priyavig @Lex2019 @AAALLL @SAS_RAZA @nathaniel_d @hans42 @O'canada @TARTAR @Canadamylove2020 @s23srinivas @Anastasia_Y @bluffmaster88 @dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured @harirajmohan for advice. Thanks!

 

[steaky]

I suggest you also invite Cookie Master. First PR card renewed while outside Canada.

 

[mastersboy]

I suggest you also invite Cookie Master. First PR card renewed while outside Canada.

Is that sarcastic or is that a real user? lol @CookieMaster please advise

 

[steaky]

Is that sarcastic or is that a real user? lol @CookieMaster please advise

That's the user! You can read their posts.

 

[CookieMaster]

Is that sarcastic or is that a real user? lol @CookieMaster please advise

I suggest you also invite Cookie Master. First PR card renewed while outside Canada.

Most likely it was given on compassionate basis. But general rule of thumb: you have to apply within the country with local address.

 

[canuck78]

If one has met the residency requirements for PR renewal (say for e.g. they have 850 residency days), and since then they have taken up a U.S. job, have an apartment lease in the U.S., a U.S. driver's license. However, this person also maintains a residence in Canada (joint lease with spouse who lives in Canada). As per the current PR renewal laws/regulations, At the time of submitting the application for PR renewal, does the persona need to be:

1. Physically present in Canada? (see screenshot below from Canada.ca about PR card renewal eligibility)
2. Does the person need to have their primary physical address in Canada? (The PR renewal form asks for "your current residential address in Canada" as shown in the second screenshot below - does this "current residential address in Canada" mean you need to be primarily living here?)
3. Depending on your answer to question #2 above, in this example does the person have to sever all ties to the U.S. and come back to Canada to apply for PR renewal or just maintain a Canadian apartment lease or even just visit Canada for a few days while sending the PR renewal form be enough?
4. If after staying in Canada for 850 days in first 3 years, one stays out of Canada for 1.5 years (cant even come back on weekends due to COVID quarantine), will CBSA challenge the PR when trying to reenter after a lengthy absence? If CBSA recommends that PR be revoked, can one leave Canada while the appeal is in process?

Please consider answering each question itemwise. Thanks!

Inviting @dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured @harirajmohan @rajkamalmohanram @Sambade @EUK @SeanTor @November2015 @Paul09 @Fawny43 @shibdutta @PranavKat @drkv78 @priyavig @Lex2019 @AAALLL @SAS_RAZA @nathaniel_d @hans42 @O'canada @TARTAR @Canadamylove2020 @s23srinivas @Anastasia_Y @bluffmaster88 @Chevy23 @NN74 @Seym @myscanada @qorax @avigtr @vitoriaboy @TickleMeElmo @anuragmaneesha @civilengr @keesio @Rob_TO @zardoz @JHT @Chevy23 @NN74 @Seym @myscanada @qorax @avigtr @vitoriaboy @TickleMeElmo @anuragmaneesha @civilengr @keesio @Lex2019 @Rob_TO @zardoz @rajkamalmohanram @Sambade @EUK @SeanTor @November2015 @Paul09 @Fawny43 @shibdutta @PranavKat @drkv78 @priyavig @Lex2019 @AAALLL @SAS_RAZA @nathaniel_d @hans42 @O'canada @TARTAR @Canadamylove2020 @s23srinivas @Anastasia_Y @bluffmaster88 @dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured @harirajmohan for advice. Thanks!

You must be in Canada to send in your PR card renewal. Having an address is not good enough you must reenter Canada to send in your application.

 

[kathysrazor]

Let's start with something simple. PR Cards are documents, like Passports. They *document* your status (PR or Citizenship). They do not *give* you your status.

Your PR does not expire. If you fail to meet the obligations to maintain it, and you are examined, you can lose it if you don't have sufficient H&C.

A person outside Canada, without a PR card or PRTD, is *presumed* not to be a PR. That doesn't mean they aren't, it just means they can't get on a plane. Your posted thing is about eligibility for a PR card, not eligibility for PR. You can be a PR, with no card, anywhere in the world, gone from Canada for 40 years.

If you are gone for 40 years you will almost certainly lose your PR status, though, as soon as you apply for a PR card, or try to cross the border.

 

[kathysrazor]

At the time of submitting the application for PR renewal, does the persona need to be:
1. Physically present in Canada? (see screenshot below from Canada.ca about PR card renewal eligibility)

The IRPA (31(1)) states that a permanent resident *shall* be provided with a document indicating their status. The government has to issue it. The PR card is that document (per Reg 53(1)). Under regulation 55, "A permanent resident card shall only be provided or issued in Canada.".

In other words, while all Permanent Residents are eligible to receive a PR card, they try to make you come to Canada to get it.

Practically, as long as you meet the requirements, it's enforced by ensuring your mailing address and current residential address is in Canada. If you are outside of Canada, they want you to get a PRTD to return to Canada before applying. While I have seen people get away with listing a Canadian address and applying abroad, be aware that such an action may "induce an error in the administration of this Act", which can constitute misrepresentation.

2. Does the person need to have their primary physical address in Canada? (The PR renewal form asks for "your current residential address in Canada" as shown in the second screenshot below - does this "current residential address in Canada" mean you need to be primarily living here?)

The reason they want you to return to Canada is regulation 56(2):

(2) An application for a permanent resident card must be made in Canada and include ...

• (iv) the applicant’s mailing address,
• (v) the addresses of all of the applicant’s places of residence during the previous five years,

Since an application must legally be made from within Canada, they want the address you are currently residing in Canada. It may not be your "primary" residence, but it should be exactly what it asks - where you are currently residing in Canada. That may be a hotel.

3. Depending on your answer to question #2 above, in this example does the person have to sever all ties to the U.S. and come back to Canada to apply for PR renewal or just maintain a Canadian apartment lease or even just visit Canada for a few days while sending the PR renewal form be enough?

From the standpoint of the regs, driving across the border and mailing it would technically meet the requirements of the IRPA. The issue would be filling out the form, as misrepresentation is bad. If you have an address in Canada you are temporarily residing at, then you can both meet the requirements of the regulations and be honest in filling out the form. You have to include your residential history anyway, so it's going to be clear that the address is likely a temporary residence.

4. If after staying in Canada for 850 days in first 3 years, one stays out of Canada for 1.5 years (cant even come back on weekends due to COVID quarantine), will CBSA challenge the PR when trying to reenter after a lengthy absence? If CBSA recommends that PR be revoked, can one leave Canada while the appeal is in process?

The rule is 2 out of 5. Until the first 5 years are up, it is sufficient to demonstrate that you *could* meet the obligation. If you are over 730, you already have. The length of the absence doesn't matter, except that it will increase the odds of them checking. They now have US travel history, so it's fairly easy for them to get the exit records if they want them.

Once 5 years is up, any time you are investigated they can look back 5 years. If less than 2 of those were in Canada, and you didn't have a permitted excuse or H&C, then you can lose PR upon examination. The process is less about "recommending revocation", and more about trying to enforce the law as written.

Specifically,

If, following an examination of a permanent resident, an officer concludes that a permanent resident has failed to comply with the residency obligation under A28, the officer may prepare a report for inadmissibility under A41(b) against a permanent resident, taking into account prescribed considerations set in the IRPA. A28(2)(c) specifically requires officers and the MD to take into account humanitarian and compassionate considerations, including the best interests of a child directly affected by the determination, when assessing whether such considerations overcome any breach of the residency obligation prior to the determination. Officers must articulate consideration of these prescribed factors in the decision to write a report under A44(1) and/or their recommendation to the MD

If the gap has been long, an officer may ask further questions. If he thinks that you have not met the requirements, he then writes the 44(1) report, and you get to have a hearing. You can present evidence, they can present evidence, and ultimately a determination is reached whether or not you meet the requirements.

You can leave Canada during the process, and can voluntarily give up PR status if you want.

 

[dpenabill]

This topics deals with one of those subjects that is a very simple matter for the vast majority of those affected, but which becomes complex, tangled, and confusing in some situations. In particular, to the extent this topic is about whether a PR needs to be physically present in Canada when making an application for a new PR card, the simplest, most straight-forward version of the rule is clearly stated in the IRCC guide for making PR card applications: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#5445E5

It states:

To be eligible for a PR Card, you must . . . be physically present in Canada.​

That's the rule according to IRCC. Long and short of it.

There are, however, ways to work around the rule. That is a very different subject. The OP's query is almost certainly more about this, about working around the rule. That tends to be more complicated and, depending on the work-around being considered, potentially thorny.

Bringing this particular topic (not its subject, but the thread itself) into focus. This topic, the OP's queries, did not initially result in ANY serious (non-troll) responses despite being directly addressed to nearly a hundred forum participants. For a week the only response was trolling.

The crux of the OP's query, after all, was definitively answered in the screen-shot the OP posted with the query itself, displaying IRCC's explicit declaration (same as I quote above) that:

To be eligible for a PR Card, you must . . . be physically present in Canada.​

Question answered. No ambiguity. Nothing to interpret. Nothing needing explanation, not much so anyway . . . except, unless, the question is really about how to get away with not complying with this rule.

Despite displaying the definitive answer, the OP still, nonetheless, asked whether the PR needs to be physically present in Canada when making the PR card application. The additional questions posed make it clear, the OP was NOT really asking whether the PR needs to be physically present in Canada. Again, no need to get weedy saying what the rule is. As @canuck78 eventually and simply observed:

You must be in Canada to send in your PR card renewal. Having an address is not good enough you must reenter Canada to send in your application.

At least that is the rule according to IRCC, and IRCC is the agency or department, the government body, that handles these things and decides who gets a PR card and when.

In contrast, this is a subject, the object of many queries, which arises in this forum again and again. Sure, many times the person asking is simply not well acquainted with IRCC's rules or with what is in the guide for making a PR card application. For such queries a response much like the one posted by @canuck78 is generally sufficient, but including a specific reference (and link is even better) to the guide, and what it states there, definitively answers the question. No ambiguity. No need for interpretation.

For further clarity and elaboration, the posts above by @kathysrazor explain the process related to obtaining a new PR card very well. (Not that I am the one to judge such things, but these particular matters are within the rather small range of what I focus on and make an effort to explain as clearly as possible, even if, admittedly, my efforts are rather clumsy on too many occasions. It is nice to see such clearly articulated explanations.)

BUT . . . this brings this back to the OP's query, and questions 2, 3, and 4 in that query. This leads back to the context in which this question and many other similar or related queries are asked.

In particular, it should be noted that questions about a PR living abroad (or otherwise largely staying abroad for extended periods of time), and applying for a new PR card, tend to come with more than a little baggage which typically includes an agenda or at least a hope to get around the explicit instructions for PR card applications. And then, in this forum, subject to troll distractions, just as has happened in this topic.

That is, the questions are often framed in terms of what-are-the-rules? In contrast, in this forum the question really being asked, rather often, is can-I-get-around-the-rule? (for being IN Canada when making a PR card application) or how-can-I-get-around-the-rule?


Most common work-around: coming to Canada just long enough to make the application:

This is a somewhat less complicated tangent and this involves the most common work-around, the situation in which the PR comes to Canada, makes the PR card application while IN Canada, and then goes back abroad pending processing. As long as the PR has a valid address IN Canada, even if it is not the address where the PR is actually living, AND as long as otherwise the PR provides accurate and complete information . . . including, in particular, as to travel history, and work and address history . . . the main risk is that the PR will nonetheless be required to pick up the card in person (so delivery of the new card is dependent on the PR being IN Canada for that) or the risk that the application is diverted into a non-routine processing track that may delay issuance of a new card for a year, or even longer, or may result in stalling processing the application until the PR either applies for a PR Travel Document or arrives at a Port-of-Entry in returning to Canada.

Technically this is NOT a work-around the rule. It is complying with the rule. The application is made by the PR while IN Canada. Nonetheless, as just described, it involves RISKS. Those risks tend to increase with factors like cutting-it-close in regards to RO compliance, among other factors.

But the brief visit to Canada approach does bring up a key aspect of the PR card application process: the distinction between being *issued* a new PR card versus the PR card being actually *DELIVERED* to the PR . . . and which in turn sometimes encounters the situation in which IRCC declines to deliver a new PR card even though one has been issued.

This in turn brings up the question about whether the validity of IRCC's "present in Canada" rule can be challenged. As noted repeatedly, there is no doubt about IRCC's rule, even if how the rule is stated varies some here and there, and it is worth adding, even if the validity of the rule might be subject to challenge.

This leads to some more detailed aspects of the observations here by @kathysrazor (which again very well explain things).

The IRPA (31(1)) states that a permanent resident *shall* be provided with a document indicating their status. The government has to issue it. The PR card is that document (per Reg 53(1)). Under regulation 55, "A permanent resident card shall only be provided or issued in Canada.".

In other words, while all Permanent Residents are eligible to receive a PR card, they try to make you come to Canada to get it.

Practically, as long as you meet the requirements, it's enforced by ensuring your mailing address and current residential address is in Canada. If you are outside of Canada, they want you to get a PRTD to return to Canada before applying. While I have seen people get away with listing a Canadian address and applying abroad, be aware that such an action may "induce an error in the administration of this Act", which can constitute misrepresentation.

As I noted, @kathysrazor explains the process very well. And I do not mean to quibble with any of it.

But some further observations down the more complicated side of this are warranted . . . for another post . . .

 

[dpenabill]

Continuing . . . .

In other words, while all Permanent Residents are eligible to receive a PR card, they try to make you come to Canada to get it.

Practically, as long as you meet the requirements, it's enforced by ensuring your mailing address and current residential address is in Canada. If you are outside of Canada, they want you to get a PRTD to return to Canada before applying. While I have seen people get away with listing a Canadian address and applying abroad, be aware that such an action may "induce an error in the administration of this Act", which can constitute misrepresentation.

Again, I agree with all that.

But once the discussion goes beyond what the rule actually is, into considering how it is enforced, and how to get around it, things get complicated. They get weedy.

When the discussion wanders into what work-around might be available, what are the parameters for pushing the envelope versus what the PR can-get-away-with, when the discussion goes that way, then things tend to get rather messy and subject to a whole lot of what-if contingencies. And then they tend to wander into risks going beyond a bit of fudging, beyond mere flirting with misrepresentation. And it warrants emphasizing that if the PR crosses the line, a rather vague and perhaps difficult to predict line, beyond mere flirting with misrepresentation, the stakes go up and can get very serious. Which is why the misleading trolling this subject tends to invite is so disconcerting, potentially dangerous.

Which brings up the particular questions posed by the OP. They are largely about evidence and inferences based on such evidence. They are less about being confused about the rules (the first question specifically ignores the rule that the OP quoted) and more about being concerned with what IRCC might figure out and how that could affect things. I do not mean to second-guess the OP or the OP's motives, but the questions posed appear framed to probe the nature of IRCC investigatory and assessment methods. Otherwise what the OP needs to know is simple: stay in Canada enough to NOT fall short of complying with the PR RO, and when it is time to apply for a new PR card, be in Canada to do that.

All that said, many of us are well aware that IRCC is NOT in the gotcha-game, and does NOT generally enforce its rules in a hyper-technical way. IRCC tolerates quite a lot of work-around approaches. @kathysrazor illustrates this in another discussion about applying for a PR Travel Document, and managing to do so while still in Canada despite the fact that technically a PR is supposed to only make the PR TD application while abroad.

The officer called me to verify residency, and was asking me questions . . .
Finally, he asked me about my house, and he seemed to be using Google Maps. He asked me the color of my house, I told him, and he said I was wrong. I replied that I was standing in my yard looking at it, and he told me he was going to "pretend he didn't hear that".

The difficulty, and it is a real difficulty, arises in distinguishing reports about real life examples from descriptions, let alone advice, about when and how someone else can do similarly, when and how someone might succeed in a work-around.

The problem, and it is a real problem, is figuring out the boundaries in discretion, be that discretion exercised by IRCC or CBSA. This is illustrated in the clarification posted by @armoured in response to another post by @kathysrazor, in regards to a discussion about a PR's options in returning to Canada if the PR is not in compliance with the Residency Obligation, here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/didnt-meet-residency-requirements-is-it-necessary-to-start-from-scratch-again-or.729549/#post-9395641

We can identify RISK factors. As @armoured notes, in the Port-of-Entry PR RO examination context, contrasting respective risks for the PR minimally falling short of the RO versus the PR way short . . . as a matter of law, both are in breach, each inadmissible, but the outcome of the PoE examination can vary considerably and is obviously influenced quite a lot by how big, or little, the breach is. Among other factors (such as ties in Canada, reason for being abroad, and others).

There is one overriding key risk factor which many seem to take for granted: CREDIBILITY! Credibility looms very large in EVERY transaction with IRCC and CBSA. The role and impact of credibility is huge and should never be underestimated.

But as much as might be ascertained about RISK factors, we know what works best, what reduces the risk to near zero: when in doubt, follow the instructions; and otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

Comply with the PR RO and apply for a new PR card while present IN Canada, and preferably while living IN Canada. There are good reasons for emphasizing what the rule is and following the rule, most of which come round to one thing: THAT WORKS.

But it is also important to recognize that even though IRCC does not play gotcha-games and, rather, tends to allow many PRs some flexibility, even leniency, in how the rules are in practice applied and enforced, it is important to understand that this should NOT be mistaken to grant license for not following the rules. This should absolutely NOT be mistaken to negate the rules. More than occasionally some participants in this forum will claim the fact that some PRs were allowed to do this or that means that is is OK to do those things. WRONG. Big time wrong.

It is really important to understand that. IRCC lets more than a little slide by. Mostly because to do so does not contradict overall immigration policy. No need to apply the rules with totalitarian, draconian strictness. But the rules still apply. Following the rules is almost always the by far best approach. Failing to perfectly follow the rules may not be fatal but has risks.

This takes things back to . . .

The IRPA (31(1)) states that a permanent resident *shall* be provided with a document indicating their status. The government has to issue it. The PR card is that document (per Reg 53(1)). Under regulation 55, "A permanent resident card shall only be provided or issued in Canada."

I cannot put my cursor on the case at the moment, but there is at least one case in which a Federal Court ruled that CIC/IRCC cannot deny a PR card application for the sole reason the PR was not in Canada when the application was made. But Federal Court decisions have limited scope in terms of establishing legal precedence. And it is clear that in the years since that decision IRCC has continued to instruct and to some extent apply the rule that a PR must be in Canada when making a PR card application, subject to what appears to be more than a few exceptions in practice.

Are PR card applications *denied* because IRCC determines the PR was not IN Canada at the time of the application? Maybe. We do not see anecdotal reports of this. It is not something that shows up in Federal Court decisions.

As I alluded to in my previous post, the typical ways in which IRCC deals with PRs it perceives to be abroad is to --

-- process the application according to the facts, and if the PR is in RO compliance, and not otherwise inadmissible, issue a new PR card and then, either​

-- -- mail the PR card to the PR's listed address in Canada, or​

-- -- require the PR to pick up the PR card in person​

​

-- or, refer the application to non-routine processing, often Secondary Review, in which event IRCC then, either​

-- -- eventually processes the application and makes a decision, which if favourable likewise means the card is issued and then it varies whether the card is mailed or the PR is required to pick it up in person, or​

-- -- processing is more or less suspended until the PR either applies for a PR Travel Document or returns to Canada and is examined at a PoE​

So far as we can discern, the risk is HIGH that making an application from abroad will result in either having to pick up the new card in person, or encountering stalled or suspended processing, often delaying further processing until the PR applies for a PR TD, arrives in Canada, or otherwise demonstrates to IRCC the PR is actually in Canada. Does not always go this way; but the fact that it does not always go this way should NOT be misunderstood or misconstrued. The fact there are exceptions does not change what the rule is.

 

[kathysrazor]

All that said, many of us are well aware that IRCC is NOT in the gotcha-game, and does NOT generally enforce its rules in a hyper-technical way. IRCC tolerates quite a lot of work-around approaches. @kathysrazor illustrates this in another discussion about applying for a PR Travel Document, and managing to do so while still in Canada despite the fact that technically a PR is supposed to only make the PR TD application while abroad.

To clarify on that one, at the time I applied for a PRTD, I was physically present outside Canada, because I wished to return using it. Immediately afterwards, Trudeau came on the news telling all Canadians to return home, so I did. I attempted to fly on the strength of my US passport (something that had previously always worked), was denied boarding on an aircraft, so I rented a car and drove.

I was in Canada when the application was processed, but out of Canada when I applied. That may have influenced the officer's decision to ignore my presence in Canada, as the rules (generally speaking) are not to issue a PRTD to people in Canada, or a PR Card to people outside of Canada.

Essentially, although it's not written this way, they are both requiring presence in (or absense from) Canada. This is done by requiring you to apply from the appropriate place in or out of Canada, then mailing it to you in or out of Canada. With the PR Card, they can also achieve this by requiring you to pick it up.

But as much as might be ascertained about RISK factors, we know what works best, what reduces the risk to near zero: when in doubt, follow the instructions; and otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

Absolutely. The safest way to handle things with Canada is almost always to do things exactly as instructed, exactly as required by law. There are some very rare exceptions, and such exceptions should generally be handled on a case by case basis. In the enforcement manuals, they recognize that some things deserve exceptions, but they should generally be reserved for things which are unforseeable.