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Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
THANK YOU! The immediate need for protection is indeed a legend!
On the other hand, the need for citizenship is real. My case is an example, my PR card is expiring soon and it is taking ages to be renewed and my job requires me to travel to Europe often. If my PR expires before the new one is here, I won't be able to travel and I will lose my job.
@dpenabill: I think you need to do more research about how the delays in citizenship applications could be much more damaging for some people beyond just not being able to vote in the next elections.
I am NOT in a position to evaluate the relative needs of individuals. There are many in the government who are in that position.

As I noted, sure, some people will disagree with particular triage decisions. You and @piotrqc do not agree that asylum hearings should be given priority over routine citizenship application processing. The government has decided to contrary. To my view that is an easy call. Not my call. But in conjunction with other factors, like what adjustments would allow the asylum hearings to resume, and what is on the line, whether or not these individuals should be provided the protection of the Canadian government, probably an easy call.

But I am curious how it is you so emphatically assert that "Everyone is equally affected by these delays . . . " and at the same time assert I should do more research (even though I am not the one in a position to make these decisions) to recognize how some, like yourself, may be more affected than others.

Noting, nonetheless, that a PR card will meet your needs, and further noting that the process for issuing a new PR card is generally much faster than processing citizenship applications, has far less at stake, and the criteria is significantly easier to judge, and in routine cases requires no in-person contacts at all.

And as for those who otherwise have travel-abroad issues, without suggesting whether or not it is the way it should be, my perception is that the Canadian government may tend to give the need to travel abroad lower priority, lower than a wide range of other factors that those who are in a position to assess, as to who is affected more, are most likely weighing. The change in law in 2012 I referenced, for example, meant that a whole class of Canadian Permanent Residents not only could no longer travel to their home country to visit a dying parent, but could lose their status in Canada altogether, resulting in the denial of their citizenship application in process and being issued a Removal Order, based on having gone to their home country in the past before the law changed.

Assessing priorities is an important part of many government functions, and especially so during times like this. I do not pretend to have the information or knowledge, let alone the wisdom, to second-guess those decisions. I trust the Liberals or the NDP to be more humane and compassionate and otherwise good-reason-driven than the Conservatives, by a big margin. Generally the best we can do is make an effort to put the better government in power, and then whoever is in power, to the extent we are involved in this or that specific matter, or cause, to engage in advocacy for that cause. So again, I am all on board with encouraging the government to address the problem.

To my view, again, I suspect the more extreme rabble-rousing here is NOT genuinely interested in addressing the real issue. The fear-mongering aspect is what looms largest in this regard.

As a practical note: the resumption of processing anywhere near the pre-covid level will almost certainly be UNEVEN, affecting some far more than others. Many are going to encounter rather long delays. Encouraging IRCC to get back on track could, and should help. But for many the timeline going forward from here is going to go long. As I noted, the downstream impact tends to be greater, for many, than the initial delay. But again, UNEVENLY. I applied in the latter stages of the big slowdown a decade or so ago, and like me there were many whose applications were completely processed, the oath taken, in six to eight months after applying, even though at the time the routine processing timeline was 18-24 months, with many routine cases going well beyond two years, and any non-routine processing at all could tip the scales toward 3 to 4 years.

This problem is not going away anytime soon. Nowhere near that. Again, reasonable efforts to encourage the government to do better are worthwhile and should help . . . but at best they will only help some.

Otherwise the honest message is 'yeah, be prepared, it is likely going to take a long while more.'

This actually leads to another reason why it seems obvious that ALARM broadcast by @piotrqc strikes me as NOT genuine. There is NO WAY, none, that any more than an isolated few, if any at all, who have not taken the test yet will be taking the oath of citizenship before a fall election, if there is a fall election. Regardless the scope of mobilization. No special insight into Canadian politics or processing citizenship applications necessary to see this very clearly. Obviously, "taking to the streets" now is NOT going to avoid whatever consequences there are from a fall election, if there is one (might happen, the government must prepare for it, but so far most informed insiders are still betting it will not happen). It appears rather obviously disingenuous to urge what will so clearly not make a difference.
 
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piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
tests still stopped?
Yes, and no scheduled restart date + a few people calling by phone today have reported on fcb groups that IRCC CIC phone agents have told them that the September online testing pilot is canceled + they are waiting for the normal resumption without having a defined date (we must not forget the code 699 which allows them to receive their salary without doing anything + their very powerful union which could make our suplice last for years to come).

The equation is easy now. Waiting without saying anything = years and years of painful waiting ... and a serious, possible and real risk of a majority Conservative government that blocks processing, or changes the Immigration law retroactively and sends the envelopes back to us. ...
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
@dpenabill "Noting, nonetheless, that a PR card will meet your needs"... quick question for you, what's the difference in experience of living in a paid house vs mortgage house? It's all about the experience of living on PR vs being a citizen, right?
Not sure what you are driving at or even actually asking.

But make no mistake, my perspective is that acquiring Canadian citizenship is a very big deal. As I said in a post above: "Again, I am all in on sending letters to MPs, for example, encouraging them to in turn encourage the government to up-its-game in matters as important as the granting of citizenship."

Becoming a Canadian citizen was a huge deal to me. Taking the oath remains one of the biggest highlights of my life.

Thus, even in referring to the government's role in weighing priorities and deciding where and how to allocate resources, recognizing that, and acknowledging its practical parameters, is not, not in any way, to diminish the importance of the naturalized citizenship process and its final consummation.

But the slowdown is NOT about policy. Its about logistics. As much as more than a few here would like to tell IRCC *how* to do the job of verifying applicants' qualifications (including verification of knowledge of Canada, as mandated by the current law), that is largely a technical and mechanical matter. Not policy. Not a subject ordinarily addressed in public discourse.

So those who are genuinely interested in the cause, that of getting IRCC to move faster on restoring application processing, will almost certainly do better engaging in proportionate measures, engaging in political advocacy that is motivational, reminding respective leaders and officials in government precisely what it is I think your question is about: that taking the oath and becoming a citizen is important enough the government needs to get on it, get to work to get things back on track.

Hyperbolic claims do not advance a cause. They tend to tarnish it. While extreme noise-making measures are sometimes warranted if not overdue (in response to racism in the U.S. looms as a rather ugly and salient example), "taking to the streets" or other such heavy-handed, making-noise, see-me, actions will rather often alienate more than help, incite backlash not resolutions, and this is especially so if the "cause" is burdened with unfounded, unwarranted claims.

My pushing back in this particular topic is about promoting a more effective approach to encourage IRCC to get things going, as much as that is practically realistic. And illuminating that an approach rooted in fear-mongering is almost certainly not going to be effective, and it has the risk of being overtly if not badly counterproductive.

The practically realistic element is really important. Most citizenship applications are already, now, delayed by at least six to eight months. This is almost certainly going to get worse. This is how it is. Thus, for example, the idea of "taking to the streets" to get the government to complete the process for current applicants before there is a federal election this fall (if that happens), makes no sense at all, since there is no way to accomplish that. Not in the ballpark.

For those who sincerely fear there will be an election, the Conservatives will form a majority government, and then proceed to change citizenship requirements effectively terminating applications currently in process, again if they sincerely fear this (notwithstanding that actually there is no reason for this fear . . . sure, there could be an election, and the Conservatives could win despite current polls saying otherwise, but there is no more than an extremely remote prospect that would lead to changes in law terminating the eligibility of those who are now qualified and have applications pending) they would be wise to direct their efforts toward helping to defeat the Conservatives in close ridings rather than pushing the current government to do what it is clearly not going to get done by this fall.

Again, the latter is actually so clear, so obvious, it invites questions about the real intent of those pushing for radical, largely make-noise actions, supposedly to get through the process in time to be done before the Conservatives take power.

The practically realistic element is also really important because (1) among those with applications now pending, many if not most will not be getting through the process any time soon, and so they should be encouraged to prepare themselves according to their own situation (such as applying for a new PR card if they anticipate international travel in the coming year); and (2) those who are qualified and have applications now pending, should be reassured that even though this is very likely to go long now, this will not change the outcome, no need to worry the government will change the requirements for them.

This is going to continue being a rough time for many for many reasons. This is a time for those affected to pull together and work together. Based on the realities, not fear-mongering exaggerations.
 

Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,721
843
Some people are really arguing that having a delay in their citizenship application is similar to not being able to know whether you'll be able to stay in Canada and start a life here, or return in a home country you don't want to be returned to...
I understand that people are preaching for their own church, but empathy is really needed here.

The title of the thread, and the 1st post both list spousal sponsorship, and the protests organized by those who can't be joined by their loved ones overseas during this pandemic. The content of the thread suggest that there is absolutely no sympathy for the separated families and that a potential protest over the citizenship delays takes precedence over anything else IRCC does.

Yeah, delays affect people's lives. I can see it firsthand, with a citizenship application (including a test a year and a half ago and no DM yet!) and 2 very long PR applications in my direct family, including my own spouse. I would never equate this to family separation, the CAQ's meddling with CSQ in Quebec or asylum seekers.

Organize yourselves, protest, it's absolutely your right. Being this tone deaf isn't.
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
Getting back to the important point: It looks like CIC has canceled the online testing pilot program scheduled for September ... We have to make some noise ... or have to wait years more.

, Piotr
where did you get this information from ? I have looked all over the web and not even single official information about online trial test in September nor a cancellation of new trial tests.

we all worry about our applications, this doesn't mean you can start sharing worrisome news.

overall you need to share reliable and trustworthy /confirmed information .
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
where did you get this information from ? I have looked all over the web and not even single official information about online trial test in September nor a cancellation of new trial tests.

we all worry about our applications, this doesn't mean you can start sharing worrisome news.

overall you need to share reliable and trustworthy /confirmed information .

I did this by sharing the direct link where this information is, and even a screen ... But the moderators here censored the post. "Pomotions" for fcb groups are not allowed, they said.
 

issteven

Hero Member
Jan 2, 2014
673
201
I have a job assignment in Asia, need to move to Asia soon.

This citizenship test/oath delay is destroying my plan.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
Group name is Canadian Citizenship Test try to find on FB ( profile picture is some mixing colors purple mostly) you have to wait on admin approval to join...then you can find yesterday person under name Rakia Yaya asked about citizenship test and look in first comment and replies .
Really I don't know how to post link of that .

I'm going to try something to let everyone know, it's very relevant to the topic I think, I hope this time the moderators here aren't going to mindlessly censor, and leave that information.

I wouldn't put any links, just the relevant information. No promotion.

Our friend 2be_canadian (His post has not been edited or removed ... I don't see why what I write based on what he wrote should be censored ??) indeed described a post that I found it by searching ... And in the responses below the same post, one person commented this:


https://www.zupimages.net/up/20/35/759o.jpg
 

AshesNdust

Hero Member
Jan 4, 2015
663
335
And @dpenabill another case of a friend of mine whose dying mother lives in a country she can't visit with her current travel documents. Citizenship applications delay for her could mean her mother would die without her being able to say goodbye and see her mom one last time. Can you even begin to imagine how she is feeling right now?

So I am going to say it again, everyone's life is affected so badly by all types of delays. In fact, asylum seekers are in some cases the least affected ones by these delays.
In both the cases you mention, they would qualify for an expedited PR card. There is also the option of applying for travel docs once you leave Canada. So, neither would be considered as pressing as someone seeking asylum.
 

Dana.D

Star Member
Jul 24, 2017
124
88
In both the cases you mention, they would qualify for an expedited PR card. There is also the option of applying for travel docs once you leave Canada. So, neither would be considered as pressing as someone seeking asylum.
First of all, Nothing is being expedited right now. Second, have you ever tried applying to travel documents to return to Canada? If the answer is no, then please don't ever think about suggesting that to anyone ever again. It is a nightmare!
Again asylum seekers are not exactly sitting in a war zone waiting for this hearing. They are already in Canada and this hearing is just for paper work. So it really adds nothing to anything.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,605
13,529
First of all, Nothing is being expedited right now. Second, have you ever tried applying to travel documents to return to Canada? If the answer is no, then please don't ever think about suggesting that to anyone ever again. It is a nightmare!
Again asylum seekers are not exactly sitting in a war zone waiting for this hearing. They are already in Canada and this hearing is just for paper work. So it really adds nothing to anything.
It actually costs taxpayers a lot of money to have asylum seekers who are not actually asylum seekers remain in Canada. Having a functioning asylum system is important. The true refugees often do have spouses and or children still waiting in refugee camps, war zones, etc. so making sure they are reunited with their families are important. The asylum system took a long time before covid so many waited 3-5 years minimum to be reunited with family before covid. 3 years is not common for most.
 

Dana.D

Star Member
Jul 24, 2017
124
88
It actually costs taxpayers a lot of money to have asylum seekers who are not actually asylum seekers remain in Canada. Having a functioning asylum system is important. The true refugees often do have spouses and or children still waiting in refugee camps, war zones, etc. so making sure they are reunited with their families are important. The asylum system took a long time before covid so many waited 3-5 years minimum to be reunited with family before covid. 3 years is not common for most.
citizenship applications delays are also preventing some people from being reunited with family members. asylum seekers already know before coming that it is going to be a long wait and they took that decision based on it. but people who are waiting for citizenship have planned their entire lives around the 12 months deadline that is supposed to be given for citizenship applications. some people could lose their current jobs, others could lose some job opportunities. some people need the citizenship to be granted to them on time because some of their family members live in countries they can't visit with their current travel documents. those are tax paying Canadians to be so I guess they deserve a better treatment than to be left in the dark until further notice!
 
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Dana.D

Star Member
Jul 24, 2017
124
88
You can still move and return to do your test and the oath.

@issteven: I don't recommend you do that.

@canuck78: just for your information, people who leave the country before being granted citizenship and who just return for the test and interview will have a very huge question mark on their case that in many cases would lead to further investigations and delays. they are looked at like being not committed and willing to stay in the country. I have a friend whose citizenship application process took 2.5 years just because he did that. I recommend not giving people misleading advice that could mess up their life.
 
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