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PR still in process and having PRTD issues while abroad

bigdavy

Newbie
Apr 30, 2020
4
0
i am a permanent resident of Canada since 2012 with a card which expired in July 2017 while i was in my home country i entered Canada again last year by US border then i lived in Canada for a 3 months before applying to renew my PR card in April 2019 at the time i had 748 day of RO, since then my card status is still in process they have asked of me to provide supporting documents which i did , i have gone back to my home country again in march 2020 and was hoping to use the US border to come back but i cant because of COVID 19 ,
i decided to apply for a PRTD and i had 796 days in the last 5 years from the day of application now they have asked me to provide additional documents to support that i have met the RO. i am not in Canada now so the proof i would be able to gather is limited , i have provided booking flights ,bank statements ,etc..

my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.
 

devnill

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2015
256
43
my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.
1) Yes, the onus is on you to prove you meet the RO, clearly IRCC have doubts. The date that you signed the PRTD application is the date they will use to determine if you meet RO I believe.
2) If the PRTD is issued, I think it will be valid for 1 year and allow you a single entry to Canada. However it would then be up to you to meet the RO before leaving Canada again.
3) Potentially, if they decide that you don't meet the RO then they can begin proceedings to revoke PR.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
i am a permanent resident of Canada since 2012 with a card which expired in July 2017 while i was in my home country i entered Canada again last year by US border then i lived in Canada for a 3 months before applying to renew my PR card in April 2019 at the time i had 748 day of RO, since then my card status is still in process they have asked of me to provide supporting documents which i did , i have gone back to my home country again in march 2020 and was hoping to use the US border to come back but i cant because of COVID 19 ,
i decided to apply for a PRTD and i had 796 days in the last 5 years from the day of application now they have asked me to provide additional documents to support that i have met the RO. i am not in Canada now so the proof i would be able to gather is limited , i have provided booking flights ,bank statements ,etc..

my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.

1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?

Worrying does little or no good.

Generally the risk a PR TD application is denied is LOW as long as the PR was in fact in Canada 730+ days within the relevant five years. Even if cutting-it-close.

Your risk appears to be a little higher than that. Which I will address near the end of this post.

Nonetheless the odds probably are good you will be issued a PR TD and thus be able to return to Canada, and if you do so, and are settled to stay in Canada, have NO problem keeping your PR status.

Since your risk appears to be a little higher than what would generally be anticipated for your situation, I will offer some longer, more in-depth observations.


LONGER, MORE IN-DEPTH OBSERVATIONS:

If there are any concerns or doubts about the PR's reported days in Canada, what matters is whether the PR meets the burden of proof. To quote a half-dozen or more cop movies, and a Denzel Washington character in particular, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

In your situation the biggest factor looming large is whether or not IRCC has any information or evidence that is contrary to any of the information you have submitted, either for the PR card application or the PR TD application. Or any cause to apprehend you have otherwise made any misrepresentations . . . in either the applications themselves, or to PoE officials upon arrival when returning to Canada in the past (such as presenting a visa-exempt passport and concealing fact of being a returning PR, or claiming to have been in Canada more recently than was true) . If so, that would significantly increase your RISK of problems.

Beyond that . . .

For the PR who has obviously been outside Canada more than in Canada, that is, cutting-it-close, meeting the burden of proof can be a little more difficult because, obviously, if there is any doubt about where the PR was, then the reasonable inference is that the PR was probably NOT in Canada.

This is the reasonable inference because, after all, for any period of time it is not certain where the PR was, the reasonable inference is the PR was where the PR usually was . . . so for the PR who was outside Canada more than in Canada, that can tip the scales to inferring the possibility, or perhaps even a likelihood, the PR was outside Canada.

Nonetheless, so far as what is seen in IRB IAD decisions, it seems unusual to see a PR TD application denied unless it appears quite clearly the PR is likely short of meeting the minimum. That is, generally there is not much cause to worry.


2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?

It can be a problem. Yes, the RO is a continuing obligation and thus a PR can be examined as to RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE even though recently the PR was issued a PR TD. And, yes, if in that examination it is determined the PR is not in compliance with the RO, as of that day, the PR can be issued a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility AND a Departure Order. The PR would be allowed to enter Canada and then can appeal, and must win the appeal in order to keep PR status.

That said, this too is NOT usual. From most reports, a PR bearing a valid PR TD is allowed to enter Canada without being Reported, even if between the date of the PR TD application and the date of actual arrival the PR falls short of RO compliance.

We do not know how the current covid-19 situation is going to affect these decisions. But it is probably safe to anticipate there will be a FAIR amount of additional leeway allowed PRs. For awhile anyway.

"Fair" does not mean a lot more leeway, let alone a blank cheque. So the typical factors will likely still be relevant. For example, PR TDs are usually valid for six months from the date of issue, but if you wait until the last month, let alone the last few days of that period, to make the trip, and that means you are that much more short of being in compliance, that is a factor that could tip the scales toward more closely and strictly screening your RO compliance the day you arrive.

In any event, if you are issued a PR TD and make the trip to Canada relatively soon, odds are good there will NOT be a problem at the PoE. Even though, as I and others often remind, any time a PR arrives at a PoE and is NOT in compliance with the RO, obviously there is a RISK of being Reported.


3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

Yes, of course. You can. You have been cutting-it-close and there is a risk you will be denied a PR TD, as discussed above, which would be a decision that TERMINATES your PR status. (Some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, it is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals this decision.)

There is a risk that even if you are granted a PR TD, if you are in breach of the RO upon your arrival in Canada you might be Reported and issued a Departure Order. This too would be a DECISION that TERMINATES your PR status. (And here too, some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, here too this is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals.)

All that said, unless your proof of presence in Canada falls significantly short of documenting the times you were in Canada, or your reported travel history dates are shown to be inaccurate, or IRCC otherwise has evidence you were outside Canada some period of time you claim to have been in Canada, the odds lean more in the direction of getting the PR TD and no problem at the PoE. That is, the odds are probably good that you will NOT lose PR status.

Moreover, even if the PR TD is denied, your recent presence in Canada should allow you to obtain a special PR TD to come to Canada to stay pending an appeal, with good odds the appeal will succeed in saving your PR status.


SOME CONCLUDING OBSERVATIONS: Generally, this situation would warrant a short answer that there is some RISK but the odds lean well in the direction of NO problem.

And ordinarily I would not bother to offer much but rather defer to responses offered by others here.

I tend to address those situations that are or at least appear to be more complicated and difficult.

Frankly, there is at least an APPEARANCE that some aspect of this situation that does NOT add up. Some aspect APPEARS to NOT make sense. So I offered the longer, more in-depth observations above . . . which is to say and emphasize, again, overall your situation would seem to NOT be much of a problem, BUT . . .

. . . BUT in addition to cutting-it-close overall, and continuing to cut-it-close over a period of time, and given that you are no longer a new immigrant but rather well past the first five year period, and THEN with a PR card application in non-routine processing, and without a currently valid PR card, you decided to leave Canada during an emerging pandemic (which was clearly going global by the middle of February), the worst in a century, and you apparently left Canada without taking proof of meeting the RO with you. Something about this at least appears to not add up.

My sense is that you will still be able to keep your PR status (assuming that IRCC does not have evidence contradicting your claims about travel dates or presence in Canada). But you have pushed the envelope.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?

Worrying does little or no good.

Generally the risk a PR TD application is denied is LOW as long as the PR was in fact in Canada 730+ days within the relevant five years. Even if cutting-it-close.

Your risk appears to be a little higher than that. Which I will address near the end of this post.

Nonetheless the odds probably are good you will be issued a PR TD and thus be able to return to Canada, and if you do so, and are settled to stay in Canada, have NO problem keeping your PR status.

Since your risk appears to be a little higher than what would generally be anticipated for your situation, I will offer some longer, more in-depth observations.


LONGER, MORE IN-DEPTH OBSERVATIONS:

If there are any concerns or doubts about the PR's reported days in Canada, what matters is whether the PR meets the burden of proof. To quote a half-dozen or more cop movies, and a Denzel Washington character in particular, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

In your situation the biggest factor looming large is whether or not IRCC has any information or evidence that is contrary to any of the information you have submitted, either for the PR card application or the PR TD application. Or any cause to apprehend you have otherwise made any misrepresentations . . . in either the applications themselves, or to PoE officials upon arrival when returning to Canada in the past (such as presenting a visa-exempt passport and concealing fact of being a returning PR, or claiming to have been in Canada more recently than was true) . If so, that would significantly increase your RISK of problems.

Beyond that . . .

For the PR who has obviously been outside Canada more than in Canada, that is, cutting-it-close, meeting the burden of proof can be a little more difficult because, obviously, if there is any doubt about where the PR was, then the reasonable inference is that the PR was probably NOT in Canada.

This is the reasonable inference because, after all, for any period of time it is not certain where the PR was, the reasonable inference is the PR was where the PR usually was . . . so for the PR who was outside Canada more than in Canada, that can tip the scales to inferring the possibility, or perhaps even a likelihood, the PR was outside Canada.

Nonetheless, so far as what is seen in IRB IAD decisions, it seems unusual to see a PR TD application denied unless it appears quite clearly the PR is likely short of meeting the minimum. That is, generally there is not much cause to worry.


2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?

It can be a problem. Yes, the RO is a continuing obligation and thus a PR can be examined as to RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE even though recently the PR was issued a PR TD. And, yes, if in that examination it is determined the PR is not in compliance with the RO, as of that day, the PR can be issued a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility AND a Departure Order. The PR would be allowed to enter Canada and then can appeal, and must win the appeal in order to keep PR status.

That said, this too is NOT usual. From most reports, a PR bearing a valid PR TD is allowed to enter Canada without being Reported, even if between the date of the PR TD application and the date of actual arrival the PR falls short of RO compliance.

We do not know how the current covid-19 situation is going to affect these decisions. But it is probably safe to anticipate there will be a FAIR amount of additional leeway allowed PRs. For awhile anyway.

"Fair" does not mean a lot more leeway, let alone a blank cheque. So the typical factors will likely still be relevant. For example, PR TDs are usually valid for six months from the date of issue, but if you wait until the last month, let alone the last few days of that period, to make the trip, and that means you are that much more short of being in compliance, that is a factor that could tip the scales toward more closely and strictly screening your RO compliance the day you arrive.

In any event, if you are issued a PR TD and make the trip to Canada relatively soon, odds are good there will NOT be a problem at the PoE. Even though, as I and others often remind, any time a PR arrives at a PoE and is NOT in compliance with the RO, obviously there is a RISK of being Reported.


3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

Yes, of course. You can. You have been cutting-it-close and there is a risk you will be denied a PR TD, as discussed above, which would be a decision that TERMINATES your PR status. (Some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, it is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals this decision.)

There is a risk that even if you are granted a PR TD, if you are in breach of the RO upon your arrival in Canada you might be Reported and issued a Departure Order. This too would be a DECISION that TERMINATES your PR status. (And here too, some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, here too this is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals.)

All that said, unless your proof of presence in Canada falls significantly short of documenting the times you were in Canada, or your reported travel history dates are shown to be inaccurate, or IRCC otherwise has evidence you were outside Canada some period of time you claim to have been in Canada, the odds lean more in the direction of getting the PR TD and no problem at the PoE. That is, the odds are probably good that you will NOT lose PR status.

Moreover, even if the PR TD is denied, your recent presence in Canada should allow you to obtain a special PR TD to come to Canada to stay pending an appeal, with good odds the appeal will succeed in saving your PR status.


SOME CONCLUDING OBSERVATIONS: Generally, this situation would warrant a short answer that there is some RISK but the odds lean well in the direction of NO problem.

And ordinarily I would not bother to offer much but rather defer to responses offered by others here.

I tend to address those situations that are or at least appear to be more complicated and difficult.

Frankly, there is at least an APPEARANCE that some aspect of this situation that does NOT add up. Some aspect APPEARS to NOT make sense. So I offered the longer, more in-depth observations above . . . which is to say and emphasize, again, overall your situation would seem to NOT be much of a problem, BUT . . .

. . . BUT in addition to cutting-it-close overall, and continuing to cut-it-close over a period of time, and given that you are no longer a new immigrant but rather well past the first five year period, and THEN with a PR card application in non-routine processing, and without a currently valid PR card, you decided to leave Canada during an emerging pandemic (which was clearly going global by the middle of February), the worst in a century, and you apparently left Canada without taking proof of meeting the RO with you. Something about this at least appears to not add up.

My sense is that you will still be able to keep your PR status (assuming that IRCC does not have evidence contradicting your claims about travel dates or presence in Canada). But you have pushed the envelope.
Hi @dpenabill
Great explanation again.
My question is in context with a PR stranded abroad and has currently 3 years left on his PR card. (This is his first 5 year period). He lost his PR card and is now willing to apply for PRTD. My questions are-
1) He has been outside Canada for MOST of the first 2 year period and now wants to come back to fulfill obligation. Should he be addressing any roadblocks in advance?

2) He currently does not have a Canadian address. Is that a deciding factor for PRTD ? My understanding after reading your posts is that address would have been an important element if the officer asked additional documents to prove 'RO' IF the person has been overseas outside the 5 year period and is now required to prove RO. But in my friend's case, he is still in his first 5 year period and wants to complete back to complete his RO. So would the absence of a Canadian address be a concern?
3) In explanation letter, should he keep it simple that he intends to fulfill his residency obligation upon entry into Canada? or should he explain about his job search activities or intention upon gaining permission to enter Canada?

4) On a totally different note, IF the travel restrictions are lifted and he is able to enter U.S., can he enter into Canada with the help of his COPR provided CBSA allows him to enter in the absence of a PR card?

Backgrounder: He has hardly lived in Canada for couple of months in the 1st 2 year period after landing. Now wants to come back and fulfill obligation.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Hi @dpenabill
Great explanation again.
My question is in context with a PR stranded abroad and has currently 3 years left on his PR card. (This is his first 5 year period). He lost his PR card and is now willing to apply for PRTD. My questions are-
1) He has been outside Canada for MOST of the first 2 year period and now wants to come back to fulfill obligation. Should he be addressing any roadblocks in advance?
Covid-19 is an ongoing crisis. It is difficult to forecast what impact this will have compared to what was the *norm* before.

But, generally, a PR who landed and became a PR less than THREE years ago should have very little problem obtaining a PR TD . . . as long as he or she established their identity as the individual who was granted PR.

2) He currently does not have a Canadian address. Is that a deciding factor for PRTD ? My understanding after reading your posts is that address would have been an important element if the officer asked additional documents to prove 'RO' IF the person has been overseas outside the 5 year period and is now required to prove RO. But in my friend's case, he is still in his first 5 year period and wants to complete back to complete his RO. So would the absence of a Canadian address be a concern?
The Residency Obligation is NOT an issue, not at all, until the third year anniversary of the date the PR landed. Until the third year anniversary the PR is for-sure in compliance with the RO because there are still at least 730 days left on the calendar in which the PR can be in Canada.

After the third year anniversary there is a question of fact as to how many days have been spent in Canada so far.

3) In explanation letter, should he keep it simple that he intends to fulfill his residency obligation upon entry into Canada? or should he explain about his job search activities or intention upon gaining permission to enter Canada?
No need to explain intent at all. Again, prior to the third year anniversary of the date of landing, the PR is for-sure in compliance with the RO because there are still at least 730 days left on the calendar in which the PR can be in Canada. Nothing to explain.

4) On a totally different note, IF the travel restrictions are lifted and he is able to enter U.S., can he enter into Canada with the help of his COPR provided CBSA allows him to enter in the absence of a PR card?
Yes. The PR needs to present proof of identity. That is usually sufficient for border officials to verify the individual is also a PR. Presenting a CoPR can help make this process go more smoothly and faster.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Thanks @dpenabill
That is relieving to know.
I should clarify one aspect. To some extent the PR should explain the loss of the PR card. And be sure to follow the instructions and checklist for this. As in regards to providing copies of reports to law enforcement or such.

My comment about no need to explain intent was specifically in reference to the Residency Obligation when it has been less than three years since the date of landing.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
I should clarify one aspect. To some extent the PR should explain the loss of the PR card. And be sure to follow the instructions and checklist for this. As in regards to providing copies of reports to law enforcement or such.

My comment about no need to explain intent was specifically in reference to the Residency Obligation when it has been less than three years since the date of landing.
Thank you again.
Yes, he has a notarized affidavit that speaks of PR card loss being reported to local police.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
I should clarify one aspect. To some extent the PR should explain the loss of the PR card. And be sure to follow the instructions and checklist for this. As in regards to providing copies of reports to law enforcement or such.

My comment about no need to explain intent was specifically in reference to the Residency Obligation when it has been less than three years since the date of landing.
Hi @dpenabill
The form does ask about permanent address in Canada. What to do if the person has no address in Canada? A friend's address or AirBnB location would work?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Hi @dpenabill
The form does ask about permanent address in Canada. What to do if the person has no address in Canada? A friend's address or AirBnB location would work?
Maybe, hopefully, someone else here will have more recent and direct experience regarding this, and information about it, than me.

That said, I believe "none" or "not applicable" or such should work, since it is not necessary to have a permanent address in Canada.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,605
13,529
Thank you again.
Yes, he has a notarized affidavit that speaks of PR card loss being reported to local police.
Did he report the missing card soon soon after realizing it was missing to the Canadian government once he/she realized it was missing? It needs to be cancelled so it is not used fraudulently.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
Did he report the missing card soon soon after realizing it was missing to the Canadian government once he/she realized it was missing? It needs to be cancelled so it is not used fraudulently.
After reporting to the local authorities in India, he sent an email to IRCC as to how to return to Canada and explained the whole situation. My understanding is by doing this, IRCC has been notified? OR is there any other process to officially notify IRCC about lost PR CARD?
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
Maybe, hopefully, someone else here will have more recent and direct experience regarding this, and information about it, than me.

That said, I believe "none" or "not applicable" or such should work, since it is not necessary to have a permanent address in Canada.
Senior members of this group- can you throw some light on this question? My colleague who lost his PR Card in India is now planning to apply for PRTD. However, he just realized that he does not have a copy of COPR in his possession and also never applied for a SIN number. He only has front and back digital copy of PR Card and affidavit of lost PR Card being reported to local authorities in India.
Can someone please share if COPR document is mandatory in this case?
Backgrounder-
- He only stayed inside Canada for 2months in last 2 years.
-Now has almost 2.5 years left and wants to come back ASAP to fulfill Residency Obligation.
-This is his first 5 year period.

Any advice is much appreciated. Should he seek help of an immigration lawyer if this is a complicated matter?
 

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,784
1,754
Job Offer........
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Senior members of this group- can you throw some light on this question? My colleague who lost his PR Card in India is now planning to apply for PRTD. However, he just realized that he does not have a copy of COPR in his possession and also never applied for a SIN number. He only has front and back digital copy of PR Card and affidavit of lost PR Card being reported to local authorities in India.
Can someone please share if COPR document is mandatory in this case?
Backgrounder-
- He only stayed inside Canada for 2months in last 2 years.
-Now has almost 2.5 years left and wants to come back ASAP to fulfill Residency Obligation.
-This is his first 5 year period.

Any advice is much appreciated. Should he seek help of an immigration lawyer if this is a complicated matter?
I think he needs to throw everything he has(to the Canadian consulate) in his possession hopefully he can get the PRTD.