Possible mistake in Physical Presence Calculator?

[ForgetfulYetHopeful]

I've applied for citizenship a while ago. I've already received an invitation for the test but while gathering all the originals I'll need for the interview, I noticed that I made a mistake in my Physical Presence Calculator. Or at least I think it was a mistake...

I'm from Germany and when I first came to Canada, my flight actually made a connection in Houston, TX (literally less than 2 hours.) In the calculator, I put that I was in Germany prior to arriving in Canada, which is true, but in my passport there is a stamp for entry in the US because of the connecting flight. I'm guessing I should have listed it as a separate line in the calculator but at the time it didn't even occur to me.

I mean, it was only a connection, so it would be 0 days in the calculator. And anyways, it was before I became a resident, as I obviously only became a resident once I landed in Canada. But still, it is within that five year window of eligibility. Now I'm afraid and not sure what to do?

 

[jc94]

I've applied for citizenship a while ago. I've already received an invitation for the test but while gathering all the originals I'll need for the interview, I noticed that I made a mistake in my Physical Presence Calculator. Or at least I think it was a mistake...

I'm from Germany and when I first came to Canada, my flight actually made a connection in Houston, TX (literally less than 2 hours.) In the calculator, I put that I was in Germany prior to arriving in Canada, which is true, but in my passport there is a stamp for entry in the US because of the connecting flight. I'm guessing I should have listed it as a separate line in the calculator but at the time it didn't even occur to me.

I mean, it was only a connection, so it would be 0 days in the calculator. And anyways, it was before I became a resident, as I obviously only became a resident once I landed in Canada. But still, it is within that five year window of eligibility. Now I'm afraid and not sure what to do?

Explain it at the interview. You’re meant to put details in calculator but only list the actual country you entered so sounds absolutely fine.. You can’t even submit the same day twice of memory serves as I had some long comments where I entered and left and then entered Canada again in same day.

 

[jetbat]

I would not worry too much. When you enter trips into Calculator it says: "Date you left Canada: " and "Date you returned to Canada:". I think it's quite obvious that if you had never been to Canada before you landed as Immgrant, you technically could not "leave" Canada, therefore that absence is not relevant, in my opinion.

 

[nshakelly]

I've applied for citizenship a while ago. I've already received an invitation for the test but while gathering all the originals I'll need for the interview, I noticed that I made a mistake in my Physical Presence Calculator. Or at least I think it was a mistake...

I'm from Germany and when I first came to Canada, my flight actually made a connection in Houston, TX (literally less than 2 hours.) In the calculator, I put that I was in Germany prior to arriving in Canada, which is true, but in my passport there is a stamp for entry in the US because of the connecting flight. I'm guessing I should have listed it as a separate line in the calculator but at the time it didn't even occur to me.

I mean, it was only a connection, so it would be 0 days in the calculator. And anyways, it was before I became a resident, as I obviously only became a resident once I landed in Canada. But still, it is within that five year window of eligibility. Now I'm afraid and not sure what to do?

If you have an entry in US for layover and an entry to Canada on the same day. The stay with less than 24 hours is "NOT" considered as an absense.

Even if you would have entered this in the Physical Calculator i.e. same day entry and exit, the absence would be ZERO. Hope this helps

 

[limits]

I've applied for citizenship a while ago. I've already received an invitation for the test but while gathering all the originals I'll need for the interview, I noticed that I made a mistake in my Physical Presence Calculator. Or at least I think it was a mistake...

I'm from Germany and when I first came to Canada, my flight actually made a connection in Houston, TX (literally less than 2 hours.) In the calculator, I put that I was in Germany prior to arriving in Canada, which is true, but in my passport there is a stamp for entry in the US because of the connecting flight. I'm guessing I should have listed it as a separate line in the calculator but at the time it didn't even occur to me.

I mean, it was only a connection, so it would be 0 days in the calculator. And anyways, it was before I became a resident, as I obviously only became a resident once I landed in Canada. But still, it is within that five year window of eligibility. Now I'm afraid and not sure what to do?

Doesn't really matter now, they have already approved your application since you are in the invitation stage. They already checked and approved it means you are good to go. I wouldn't bring it up in the interview either. And, it doesn't really matter anyway unless that resulted in you not completing your required days.

 

[dpenabill]

Doesn't really matter now, they have already approved your application since you are in the invitation stage. They already checked and approved it means you are good to go. I wouldn't bring it up in the interview either. And, it doesn't really matter anyway unless that resulted in you not completing your required days.

It is correct, as others more timely commented, there really is no problem for the OP regarding the connection/layover and passport stamp in the U.S. during the OP's initial trip to Canada. So, you are right, "doesn't really matter . . . "

I am responding, however, because the underlying premise in your post is not at all correct:

". . . they have already approved your application since you are in the invitation stage. They already checked and approved it means you are good to go."​

NO. This is NO WHERE near correct.

While the application has undergone some screening prior to the applicant being scheduled for the test and interview, that is far short of the application being "approved." Mostly, at this stage, all that has been "approved" is that the application meets the *completeness* check requirements, which is merely about whether sufficient information has been submitted to allow processing the application. For the most part, the accuracy of the applicant's information has NOT been checked at this stage (except IRCC appears to substantively verify applicant's information as to status and dates of status during the completeness screening, which is merely a matter of comparing the applicant's status information with the applicant's GCMS records).

In particular, the verification of travel history and number of days actually, physically present IN Canada, is NOT completed until the INTERVIEW at the very soonest.

In regards to the query posed by the OP, again there is no indication of a problem. And these observations are not intended to so much as hint otherwise.

But the suggestion that an applicant for citizenship is "approved" before being scheduled and attending the test/interview event is WRONG . . . which might warrant a mere shrug, EXCEPT it is all too common in this forum to see posts which respond to queries in the following form: "I did XYZ and I got AOR (or scheduled for the test and interview), so it is OK to do XYZ." NO, getting AOR or scheduled for the test does NOT confirm having done this or that, in the application, is OK. It only confirms the application passed the completeness screening.

 

[limits]

It is correct, as others more timely commented, there really is no problem for the OP regarding the connection/layover and passport stamp in the U.S. during the OP's initial trip to Canada. So, you are right, "doesn't really matter . . . "

I am responding, however, because the underlying premise in your post is not at all correct:

". . . they have already approved your application since you are in the invitation stage. They already checked and approved it means you are good to go."​

NO. This is NO WHERE near correct.

While the application has undergone some screening prior to the applicant being scheduled for the test and interview, that is far short of the application being "approved." Mostly, at this stage, all that has been "approved" is that the application meets the *completeness* check requirements, which is merely about whether sufficient information has been submitted to allow processing the application. For the most part, the accuracy of the applicant's information has NOT been checked at this stage (except IRCC appears to substantively verify applicant's information as to status and dates of status during the completeness screening, which is merely a matter of comparing the applicant's status information with the applicant's GCMS records).

In particular, the verification of travel history and number of days actually, physically present IN Canada, is NOT completed until the INTERVIEW at the very soonest.

In regards to the query posed by the OP, again there is no indication of a problem. And these observations are not intended to so much as hint otherwise.

But the suggestion that an applicant for citizenship is "approved" before being scheduled and attending the test/interview event is WRONG . . . which might warrant a mere shrug, EXCEPT it is all too common in this forum to see posts which respond to queries in the following form: "I did XYZ and I got AOR (or scheduled for the test and interview), so it is OK to do XYZ." NO, getting AOR or scheduled for the test does NOT confirm having done this or that, in the application, is OK. It only confirms the application passed the completeness screening.

You might be right in principle but a genuine question for you, do you know any cases where someone got an AOR and then got rejected at Citizenship Test/Interview for not completing the Physical Presence requirements? I'd say there is a very high probability that you won't.

 

[dpenabill]

You might be right in principle but a genuine question for you, do you know any cases where someone got an AOR and then got rejected at Citizenship Test/Interview for not completing the Physical Presence requirements? I'd say there is a very high probability that you won't.

The vast majority of citizenship applicants are PRs who meet the qualifications BEFORE applying, so yes, of course, only a small number of applicants have their application denied. Reasons for denying applications vary, of course, depending on what requirement the applicant fails to meet.

But actually I do know many, many individuals who attended the test and interview and were LATER denied the grant of citizenship precisely because they failed to meet the actual physical presence requirement. I have referenced and linked many such cases in numerous posts in this forum. And these are only those cases where the Federal Court has granted the applicant leave to appeal and there is an officially published decision, which in all but a tiny percentage of cases (since the physical presence requirement was implemented in 2015) the denial of the application was upheld by the Federal Court.

Again, the process does not involve verification of the applicant's actual physical presence calculation until, at the earliest, the test/interview event. If and when IRCC has questions or concerns about the applicant's reported physical presence, in the vast majority of these instances it is not UNTIL or AFTER the test/interview these questions or concerns are addressed . . . RQ related processing almost always (these days) occurs AFTER the test/interview event.


This is illustrated, in addition to the many actual cases reported in officially published decisions, in this forum in the scores of reports from applicants who receive requests for additional presence related information and documentation. This is the "RQ" process, the "Residence Questionnaire," for which IRCC now has multiple RQ-related request forms. These days (for several years now) RQ-related requests almost ALL come at or after the test/interview event. (There was a period, 2012 to 2015 or so, during which there were a lot of pre-test RQs issued, based on criteria screened at the CPC-Sydney, prior to the application being referred to the local office; other than quality-assurance programs we have seen almost no reports of such pre-test RQs for several years now.) See topics here about RQ.

There are more than a few reports in this forum from applicants who made this or that mistake in completing the physical presence calculation, typically being off by just a few days BUT having applied with a small margin over the minimum the mistake means they are short. Being short just one day means IRCC MUST deny the application. Such applicants are not even asked about the mistake UNTIL the interview, and some not even then but later when they get the RQ related requests.

There are various other issues which will not come up until the test/interview. Basically any inaccurate reporting of facts in the application are NOT checked until the test/interview phase. (With some exceptions; I previously noted the obvious one, the verification of the dates of status the applicant reports in the application, which is done attendant the completeness screening.) Moreover, there are a number of things which can change along the way. More than a few applicants stumble a bit, getting charged with domestic assault, theft under 5k, driving under the influence, after applying. Thus, IRCC repeatedly verifies the applicant has no prohibitions . . . and actually this check occurs again AFTER there is a decision-made, verifying no prohibitions again right before the oath is taken.

And of course the test and interview involves BOTH screening for knowledge of Canada and ability in one of the official languages. Applicant must pass BOTH before being approved for a grant of citizenship. (Proof of language ability that must be submitted with the application only meets the requirements for making a complete application; applicant must still demonstrate language ability during the test/interview event.)

But sure. The vast majority of applicants are qualified and they properly completed the application, doing so accurately and completely, and meeting the qualifications they will proceed smoothly through the process, few if any bumps along the way. So statistical probability is yes, the vast majority of applicants WILL be approved. But actual approval does not come, at the very soonest, until AFTER the test and interview.

Again, AOR and being scheduled for the test and interview means little if any more, from the IRCC decision-making side of things, than the applicant has submitted a "complete" application.

 

[limits]

The vast majority of citizenship applicants are PRs who meet the qualifications BEFORE applying, so yes, of course, only a small number of applicants have their application denied. Reasons for denying applications vary, of course, depending on what requirement the applicant fails to meet.

But actually I do know many, many individuals who attended the test and interview and were LATER denied the grant of citizenship precisely because they failed to meet the actual physical presence requirement. I have referenced and linked many such cases in numerous posts in this forum. And these are only those cases where the Federal Court has granted the applicant leave to appeal and there is an officially published decision, which in all but a tiny percentage of cases (since the physical presence requirement was implemented in 2015) the denial of the application was upheld by the Federal Court.

Again, the process does not involve verification of the applicant's actual physical presence calculation until, at the earliest, the test/interview event. If and when IRCC has questions or concerns about the applicant's reported physical presence, in the vast majority of these instances it is not UNTIL or AFTER the test/interview these questions or concerns are addressed . . . RQ related processing almost always (these days) occurs AFTER the test/interview event.


This is illustrated, in addition to the many actual cases reported in officially published decisions, in this forum in the scores of reports from applicants who receive requests for additional presence related information and documentation. This is the "RQ" process, the "Residence Questionnaire," for which IRCC now has multiple RQ-related request forms. These days (for several years now) RQ-related requests almost ALL come at or after the test/interview event. (There was a period, 2012 to 2015 or so, during which there were a lot of pre-test RQs issued, based on criteria screened at the CPC-Sydney, prior to the application being referred to the local office; other than quality-assurance programs we have seen almost no reports of such pre-test RQs for several years now.) See topics here about RQ.

There are more than a few reports in this forum from applicants who made this or that mistake in completing the physical presence calculation, typically being off by just a few days BUT having applied with a small margin over the minimum the mistake means they are short. Being short just one day means IRCC MUST deny the application. Such applicants are not even asked about the mistake UNTIL the interview, and some not even then but later when they get the RQ related requests.

There are various other issues which will not come up until the test/interview. Basically any inaccurate reporting of facts in the application are NOT checked until the test/interview phase. (With some exceptions; I previously noted the obvious one, the verification of the dates of status the applicant reports in the application, which is done attendant the completeness screening.) Moreover, there are a number of things which can change along the way. More than a few applicants stumble a bit, getting charged with domestic assault, theft under 5k, driving under the influence, after applying. Thus, IRCC repeatedly verifies the applicant has no prohibitions . . . and actually this check occurs again AFTER there is a decision-made, verifying no prohibitions again right before the oath is taken.

And of course the test and interview involves BOTH screening for knowledge of Canada and ability in one of the official languages. Applicant must pass BOTH before being approved for a grant of citizenship. (Proof of language ability that must be submitted with the application only meets the requirements for making a complete application; applicant must still demonstrate language ability during the test/interview event.)

But sure. The vast majority of applicants are qualified and they properly completed the application, doing so accurately and completely, and meeting the qualifications they will proceed smoothly through the process, few if any bumps along the way. So statistical probability is yes, the vast majority of applicants WILL be approved. But actual approval does not come, at the very soonest, until AFTER the test and interview.

Again, AOR and being scheduled for the test and interview means little if any more, from the IRCC decision-making side of things, than the applicant has submitted a "complete" application.

Ah ok interesting, I didn't realize IRCC doesn't check Physical Residency until test/interview. Kind of stupid to make an applicant wait that long only to reject him. Why not just check everything when you accept the application instead? But good to know and thanks for the info.

Since you are knowledgeable on this subject, I have a follow-up question for you. If you leave Canada for extended periods of time after completing your Physical Residency requirement and receiving the AOR, can this be held against you during the interview/test?

 

[PMM]

Hi

Ah ok interesting, I didn't realize IRCC doesn't check Physical Residency until test/interview. Kind of stupid to make an applicant wait that long only to reject him. Why not just check everything when you accept the application instead? But good to know and thanks for the info.

Since you are knowledgeable on this subject, I have a follow-up question for you. If you leave Canada for extended periods of time after completing your Physical Residency requirement and receiving the AOR, can this be held against you during the interview/test?

1. Only if you no longer meet the residency requirement.

 

[dpenabill]

Ah ok interesting, I didn't realize IRCC doesn't check Physical Residency until test/interview. Kind of stupid to make an applicant wait that long only to reject him. Why not just check everything when you accept the application instead?

Applicants for citizenship have no reason to apprehend they will be rejected for failing to meet the physical presence requirement UNLESS there is cause to suspect they did not meet the requirements and they cannot prove they met the requirements.

No one in the entire world knows the applicant's facts better than the applicant himself or herself. In particular, regarding days IN Canada, the applicant is the only person in the whole world who was for-sure there each and every time the PR entered and exited Canada, so the applicant is the one BEST source of information about days present. (Which is why things tend to go awry when an applicant fails to be an accurate reporter of the facts . . . makes it tough for the decision-maker when the best source is perceived to be an unreliable source.)

In any event, it is not like applying to be selected in a lottery and waiting to see whether or not one is actually selected. Qualified citizenship applicants will be granted citizenship . . . allowing that some may be required to more thoroughly prove their case.

But sure, applicants bear the burden and responsibility for their mistakes. I generally steer clear of judging what is "stupid," but no special genius is required to recognize who is to blame when someone applies for citizenship and they have not met the requirements.

If you leave Canada for extended periods of time after completing your Physical Residency requirement and receiving the AOR, can this be held against you during the interview/test?

As is often the case, the way the question is framed belies what matters. The physical presence requirement is about presence IN Canada during the eligibility period, which is based on the date the application is made, and that is the five years prior to that date. Where a PR was before or after the eligibility period does NOT count, not in the calculation of physical presence.

But of course there is far more to being qualified for citizenship than meeting the physical presence requirement.

And there can be a big difference in how this or that might influence how quickly and smoothly, or not, the process goes.

There are multiple topics in this forum discussing the matter of leaving Canada while the application is pending.

For example, while it is not clear, what @PMM appears to be referencing is the PR Residency Obligation, rather than the presence requirement to qualify for a grant of citizenship. A citizenship applicant must continue to be eligible for the grant of citizenship right up to the day the oath is actually taken. One of the requirements is to have valid PR status. To have valid PR status means not being inadmissible, and this includes not being inadmissible for a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation. If and when the processing of a citizenship application takes an especially long time (which it has at times in the not too distant past, and which could happen again in the wake of current events), it is possible for PRs who are living abroad after applying for citizenship to fail to stay in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation due to being outside Canada more than three of the preceding five years. If that happens they are inadmissible and no longer qualified for a grant of citizenship. A problem.

There are other considerations, mostly logistical, that tend to loom and potentially be problematic for citizenship applicants who have left Canada to live abroad while the application is in process. Failure to timely respond to requests and failure to appear for scheduled events (for which the notice can be quite short) pose the more obvious logistical risks.

And for those applicants who applied with little margin over the minimum, there is the possibility that a total stranger bureaucrat evaluating the applicant's case might wonder if an applicant who is living abroad now was also abroad more before applying. If and when this might trigger RQ-related non-routine processing is hard to forecast, but obviously there is some potential influence of this sort.

SHORT ANSWER: No specific problem but how things work in practice can get complicated.

 

[limits]

For example, while it is not clear, what @PMM appears to be referencing is the PR Residency Obligation, rather than the presence requirement to qualify for a grant of citizenship. A citizenship applicant must continue to be eligible for the grant of citizenship right up to the day the oath is actually taken. One of the requirements is to have valid PR status. To have valid PR status means not being inadmissible, and this includes not being inadmissible for a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation. If and when the processing of a citizenship application takes an especially long time (which it has at times in the not too distant past, and which could happen again in the wake of current events), it is possible for PRs who are living abroad after applying for citizenship to fail to stay in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation due to being outside Canada more than three of the preceding five years. If that happens they are inadmissible and no longer qualified for a grant of citizenship. A problem.

There are other considerations, mostly logistical, that tend to loom and potentially be problematic for citizenship applicants who have left Canada to live abroad while the application is in process. Failure to timely respond to requests and failure to appear for scheduled events (for which the notice can be quite short) pose the more obvious logistical risks.

And for those applicants who applied with little margin over the minimum, there is the possibility that a total stranger bureaucrat evaluating the applicant's case might wonder if an applicant who is living abroad now was also abroad more before applying. If and when this might trigger RQ-related non-routine processing is hard to forecast, but obviously there is some potential influence of this sort.

SHORT ANSWER: No specific problem but how things work in practice can get complicated.

I see, so in short, on the date that you take the oath of citizenship, you should have been in Canada as a Permanent Resident for a minimum of 2 years out of 5 in the preceding 5 years (which is essentially meeting your PR obligation). Is that correct?

 

[dpenabill]

I see, so in short, on the date that you take the oath of citizenship, you should have been in Canada as a Permanent Resident for a minimum of 2 years out of 5 in the preceding 5 years (which is essentially meeting your PR obligation). Is that correct?

Yeah.

But likewise throughout the process. As of the date of the test/interview. As of the date arriving at a PoE returning to Canada from abroad.

With due consideration for all sorts of stuff-happens risks. Like a global pandemic and potential difficulty traveling as planned.

For example: fail to appear for a scheduled event (the test/interview, a hearing, the oath) because of an on-the-job injury in Calgary, that is one thing. Fail to appear for a scheduled event because of an injury incurred while living abroad, that could be quite another.

This forum is rife with tales of woe told by those whose plans glossed-over the stuff-happens element.

 

[limits]

Yeah.

But likewise throughout the process. As of the date of the test/interview. As of the date arriving at a PoE returning to Canada from abroad.

With due consideration for all sorts of stuff-happens risks. Like a global pandemic and potential difficulty traveling as planned.

For example: fail to appear for a scheduled event (the test/interview, a hearing, the oath) because of an on-the-job injury in Calgary, that is one thing. Fail to appear for a scheduled event because of an injury incurred while living abroad, that could be quite another.

This forum is rife with tales of woe told by those whose plans glossed-over the stuff-happens element.

Hopefully, this COVID-19 doesn't delay things too much then. It has really ruined a lot of things!

 

[ehafbobo]

I've applied for citizenship a while ago. I've already received an invitation for the test but while gathering all the originals I'll need for the interview, I noticed that I made a mistake in my Physical Presence Calculator. Or at least I think it was a mistake...

I'm from Germany and when I first came to Canada, my flight actually made a connection in Houston, TX (literally less than 2 hours.) In the calculator, I put that I was in Germany prior to arriving in Canada, which is true, but in my passport there is a stamp for entry in the US because of the connecting flight. I'm guessing I should have listed it as a separate line in the calculator but at the time it didn't even occur to me.

I mean, it was only a connection, so it would be 0 days in the calculator. And anyways, it was before I became a resident, as I obviously only became a resident once I landed in Canada. But still, it is within that five year window of eligibility. Now I'm afraid and not sure what to do?

Can you please share what happened in your interview