Need clarification on the 730 day (outside canada rule) and my travel

[johnbro]

Guys,
I am not sure if I can articulate my situation correctly and ask the question to the point but, please see if you could help out here.

I landed as PR in Aug 2015, but I was working in USA back then, and for next two years would visit about 6 times for short periods that amounts to 2 months in total. In Jul 2017 I finally moved permanently to Canada. Since July 2017 to present, I have been out of Canada a total of about 3.5 months to visit my family in my home country. I have calculated my days present in Canada and outside Canada in an excel. Per the excel I see I have been outside Canada about 726 days already since landing (Aug 2015), and have another 6 months to fulfill the 1095 days (3 years) physical requirement and apply for my citizenship.

Now couple questions (hope I could ask precisely):
1. What happens if I travel again outside canada for say 2 weeks given I am at 726 days (outside).... Would my eligibility now which is in Mid July be postponed/moved further out by those 2 weeks or a whole 6 month or 1 year coz in 2015 I was barely in Canada?
2. I need clarification on how we look at previous 5 years from today. I mean is five years prior looked at exactly 5 years from today ... say in Feb 2020 I go back 5 years .. it is Feb 2015 but I landed only in Aug 2015 .. so I get that all my calculations are from Aug 2015 .. but say in Sep 2020 if I go back 5 years it would be Sep 2015 .. is this correct or would I lose a year like would it be Aug 2016 cause they ignore a full year based on my landing date ?

I hope someone could clarify these for me. Much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[dpenabill]

Best to use the IRCC online physical presence calculator. See https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do?&lang=en

Follow the instructions. Plug in ALL dates of travel outside Canada, including the date you left Canada and the date you entered Canada, even if both on are the same day. The online calculator will give you an accurate accounting of days present and days absent. What matters are the days present. If they add up to 1095 or more, the calculator will indicate you are eligible for citizenship.

You can do this for a prospective future date (very first question in the calculator asks you to enter the date you will sign the application). You can plug in September 27, 2020 as the date you expect to apply. The online calculator will then only let you plug in travel dates for the eligibility period based on that day: September 27, 2015 to September 27, 2020. You can even plug in planned future travel dates (up to September 27). And again, the calculator will give you the total number of days present and indicate if you will be eligible as of September 27.

BE SURE, however, TO WAIT to apply with a good margin over the minimum 1095 days. Some suggest merely ten days or so. My sense is at least a full month, and more is better for many.

Date you landed and became a PR has nothing to do with what defines the "eligibility period," that is the five year time period used to calculate how many days you have been present. The eligibility period, the relevant five years, is based on the date of the application. If you apply October 17, 2020, the five year period that counts is from October 17, 2015 to October 17, 2020.

If the date of landing is less than five years ago, and you were in Canada before landing but still within the last five years, the date of landing is relevant to what days get half day credit (for days prior to becoming a PR) and what days get full day credit (days after becoming a PR).

As a practical matter, if you finally came to stay in Canada in July 2017, the prudent approach is probably to wait until at least September or even into October to even consider applying . . . in regards to which, yes, if you apply September 9, 2020, your five year eligibility period will be September 9, 2015 to September 9, 2020. And again, you can use the IRCC online calculator and plug in September 9 as your date to apply and as long as you accurately enter all travel dates it will do the rest.

Guys,
I am not sure if I can articulate my situation correctly and ask the question to the point but, please see if you could help out here.

I landed as PR in Aug 2015, but I was working in USA back then, and for next two years would visit about 6 times for short periods that amounts to 2 months in total. In Jul 2017 I finally moved permanently to Canada. Since July 2017 to present, I have been out of Canada a total of about 3.5 months to visit my family in my home country. I have calculated my days present in Canada and outside Canada in an excel. Per the excel I see I have been outside Canada about 726 days already since landing (Aug 2015), and have another 6 months to fulfill the 1095 days (3 years) physical requirement and apply for my citizenship.

Now couple questions (hope I could ask precisely):
1. What happens if I travel again outside canada for say 2 weeks given I am at 726 days (outside).... Would my eligibility now which is in Mid July be postponed/moved further out by those 2 weeks or a whole 6 month or 1 year coz in 2015 I was barely in Canada?
2. I need clarification on how we look at previous 5 years from today. I mean is five years prior looked at exactly 5 years from today ... say in Feb 2020 I go back 5 years .. it is Feb 2015 but I landed only in Aug 2015 .. so I get that all my calculations are from Aug 2015 .. but say in Sep 2020 if I go back 5 years it would be Sep 2015 .. is this correct or would I lose a year like would it be Aug 2016 cause they ignore a full year based on my landing date ?

I hope someone could clarify these for me. Much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[johnbro]

Best to use the IRCC online physical presence calculator. See https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do?&lang=en

Follow the instructions. Plug in ALL dates of travel outside Canada, including the date you left Canada and the date you entered Canada, even if both on are the same day. The online calculator will give you an accurate accounting of days present and days absent. What matters are the days present. If they add up to 1095 or more, the calculator will indicate you are eligible for citizenship.

You can do this for a prospective future date (very first question in the calculator asks you to enter the date you will sign the application). You can plug in September 27, 2020 as the date you expect to apply. The online calculator will then only let you plug in travel dates for the eligibility period based on that day: September 27, 2015 to September 27, 2020. You can even plug in planned future travel dates (up to September 27). And again, the calculator will give you the total number of days present and indicate if you will be eligible as of September 27.

BE SURE, however, TO WAIT to apply with a good margin over the minimum 1095 days. Some suggest merely ten days or so. My sense is at least a full month, and more is better for many.

Date you landed and became a PR has nothing to do with what defines the "eligibility period," that is the five year time period used to calculate how many days you have been present. The eligibility period, the relevant five years, is based on the date of the application. If you apply October 17, 2020, the five year period that counts is from October 17, 2015 to October 17, 2020.

If the date of landing is less than five years ago, and you were in Canada before landing but still within the last five years, the date of landing is relevant to what days get half day credit (for days prior to becoming a PR) and what days get full day credit (days after becoming a PR).

As a practical matter, if you finally came to stay in Canada in July 2017, the prudent approach is probably to wait until at least September or even into October to even consider applying . . . in regards to which, yes, if you apply September 9, 2020, your five year eligibility period will be September 9, 2015 to September 9, 2020. And again, you can use the IRCC online calculator and plug in September 9 as your date to apply and as long as you accurately enter all travel dates it will do the rest.

Thanks much dpenabill. I used the calculator and yes it gives a lot of clarity on my situation

Just one more thing, on this webpage where I could check for citizenship eligibility.. it asks two questions

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/check-eligibility.asp

1. Have you been a permanent resident, and physically been in Canada for at least 3 of the last 5 years (1095 days)?

2. In the last 5 years have you been outside of Canada for more than a total of 730 days ?

So this rule .. staying outside Canada for 730 days obviously is restricting my application, say in 6 months per calculator .. cause there were two leap years and so they had 366 days. So in the calculator it shows I was outside 732 days. I think like you said I should clock in more than 1095 days so the days outside reduces accordingly? or it does not matter if I stayed outside 732 days? I could apply as long as I have lived 1095 days in Canada?

Thanks much for everything

 

[jc94]

Thanks much dpenabill. I used the calculator and yes it gives a lot of clarity on my situation

Just one more thing, on this webpage where I could check for citizenship eligibility.. it asks two questions

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/check-eligibility.asp

1. Have you been a permanent resident, and physically been in Canada for at least 3 of the last 5 years (1095 days)?

2. In the last 5 years have you been outside of Canada for more than a total of 730 days ?

So this rule .. staying outside Canada for 730 days obviously is restricting my application, say in 6 months per calculator .. cause there were two leap years and so they had 366 days. So in the calculator it shows I was outside 732 days. I think like you said I should clock in more than 1095 days so the days outside reduces accordingly? or it does not matter if I stayed outside 732 days? I could apply as long as I have lived 1095 days in Canada?

Thanks much for everything

Many on this forum including myself would strongly recommend you do not apply at 1095 days anyway, being at the exact limit means you have zero wiggle room. There was a recent thread where someone was sure they had 1095 days, applied, forgot about a two day trip and now doesn't qualify. And that lead into an older thread where someone else had I believe done that and been rejected. Give yourself at least 10 days.

On the leap year aspect, I'm assuming you are including this year because in the last 5 years this is the 2nd leap year as they (normally) only occur every four years. But again you are talking about two days here, you need to use the calculator and if it shows > 730 days answer yes. Or just wait a few days until it's perhaps not an issue.

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks much dpenabill. I used the calculator and yes it gives a lot of clarity on my situation

Just one more thing, on this webpage where I could check for citizenship eligibility.. it asks two questions

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/check-eligibility.asp

1. Have you been a permanent resident, and physically been in Canada for at least 3 of the last 5 years (1095 days)?

2. In the last 5 years have you been outside of Canada for more than a total of 730 days ?

So this rule .. staying outside Canada for 730 days obviously is restricting my application, say in 6 months per calculator .. cause there were two leap years and so they had 366 days. So in the calculator it shows I was outside 732 days. I think like you said I should clock in more than 1095 days so the days outside reduces accordingly? or it does not matter if I stayed outside 732 days? I could apply as long as I have lived 1095 days in Canada?

Thanks much for everything

No need to ask such questions if you USE the ONLINE CALCULATOR correctly and enter data completely and accurately, and WAIT to apply when the calculator results show at least enough days present to for-certain qualify. And that is the only sensible approach.

No need to think about leap year days at all if you WAIT to apply when the calculator results show 1105 days present, if you follow a low-margin approach such as @jc94 suggested, or when the calculator results show at least 1125 days, if you follow the having-a-substantial-buffer approach.

OR, yes, 1095 days credit, which is enough to qualify. 1095 makes the cut as long as you make ZERO mistakes. With some elevated risk for non-routine processing delays and longer processing times.

Whichever way you approach it, applying with 1095 days credit, or 1107 days credit, or 1151 days credit, the ONLY sensible approach is to use the online presence calculator, and when you do that there is NO NEED to wrestle with the impact of leap year days. You don't even need to know that 1 plus 2 equals 3. The calculator does ALL the arithmetic.

All you need to decide is how many days credit you want to apply with. And in that regard how much of a margin over the minimum you apply with is very much a personal choice. What is prudent depends on a lot of individually specific facts and circumstances.

BUT whether or not to use and rely on the actual physical presence calculator to do the arithmetic is simply a no-brainer. Forget about leap year days and let the calculator do the arithmetic.


FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION; Low-margin Risks:

If you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, the total stranger bureaucrats who will be making decisions about your application might feel the need to be more cautious and scrutinize your application more thoroughly, perhaps ask for more information or documentation to make sure you were in Canada each and every one of those days, which can involve RQ-related non-routine processing. So you could apply a few weeks sooner but have an elevated risk it will take a few months, or many months longer to process your application.

Of course, if you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, there is also the RISK that the total stranger bureaucrat who makes the final decision concludes there is enough of a possibility, that you were outside Canada a day or three more, to NOT be satisfied you have PROVEN you were actually physically present ALL the days you claim. In that case the the application is referred to a Citizenship Judge to conduct a hearing to determine if you have met the burden of proving that you were in fact in Canada each and every one of those days. If that happens, that could make the process take a YEAR longer, a year longer to find out if the CJ will be persuaded by your evidence, your proof, or if the CJ like that total stranger bureaucrat is also NOT satisfied you have met the burden of PROOF and rejects your application.

If you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, the GOOD NEWS is that MOST such applicants probably encounter no delays in processing, and all goes well. Of course we don't know the actual numbers. Is it one-in-three who end up with a much longer, or much, much longer processing timeline? And just one-in-six whose no-margin application gets rejected (whether due to a mistake or the bureaucrats not being satisfied about the applicant's proof)? If betting against one-in-six odds seems like a good bet to you, maybe ask yourself how many people you know think the odds are good playing Russian Roulette, where likewise the odds are favourable, only a one-in-six chance of getting a bullet in the head.

BY THE WAY . . . (or let's get real)

"So this rule . . . staying outside Canada for 730 days . . ."​

That is NOT a rule. That is IRCC information to help clients understand and apply the actual rules to their own situation. The rule is simple: to be eligible for a grant of citizenship, the applicant must be actually physically present in Canada 1095 days within the previous 5 years.

That is at an absolute minimum.

There are nuances. Days in Canada within the previous five years but before becoming a PR only get a half day credit.

There are details in doing the arithmetic and considering the calendar. Regarding which yes, February 29 in a leap year counts. Counts as a day absent if outside Canada that day. Counts as a day present if in Canada that day. But who cares? The online calculator takes care of these details. And approaching it any other way is, frankly, well there are a lot of descriptive ways to say it, just none in the being-smart ballpark.

Back to the IRCC guide for assessing eligibility: generally speaking, if a prospective applicant has been absent for more than 730 days, practically speaking he or she has not been in Canada at least 1095 days. Clue: not time to apply yet.

But sure, depending on calendar details and where one was on February 29 in leap years, some prospective applicants might TECHNICALLY be eligible if they were absent 731 or even 732 days during the relevant five years. That is, despite being absent 731 days, they were actually physically present 1095 days. And perhaps one or more of those prospective applicants (not too bright applicants), who are TECHNICALLY eligible despite being absent 731 or even 732 days, will apply relying on exactly 1095 days presence. Here again, there are a lot of ways to describe doing this, but none in the being-smart ballpark. Just consider the likely brain synapses triggered in the head of the total stranger bureaucrat who sees the applicant was absent 731 days during the five year eligibility period, and whether it seems like a good idea to place your $600 bet (plus the time) on how that total stranger bureaucrat will handle the application.

 

[johnbro]

Many on this forum including myself would strongly recommend you do not apply at 1095 days anyway, being at the exact limit means you have zero wiggle room. There was a recent thread where someone was sure they had 1095 days, applied, forgot about a two day trip and now doesn't qualify. And that lead into an older thread where someone else had I believe done that and been rejected. Give yourself at least 10 days.

On the leap year aspect, I'm assuming you are including this year because in the last 5 years this is the 2nd leap year as they (normally) only occur every four years. But again you are talking about two days here, you need to use the calculator and if it shows > 730 days answer yes. Or just wait a few days until it's perhaps not an issue.

Makes sense and Thanks a lot jc94 for good advice

 

[johnbro]

No need to ask such questions if you USE the ONLINE CALCULATOR correctly and enter data completely and accurately, and WAIT to apply when the calculator results show at least enough days present to for-certain qualify. And that is the only sensible approach.

No need to think about leap year days at all if you WAIT to apply when the calculator results show 1105 days present, if you follow a low-margin approach such as @jc94 suggested, or when the calculator results show at least 1125 days, if you follow the having-a-substantial-buffer approach.

OR, yes, 1095 days credit, which is enough to qualify. 1095 makes the cut as long as you make ZERO mistakes. With some elevated risk for non-routine processing delays and longer processing times.

Whichever way you approach it, applying with 1095 days credit, or 1107 days credit, or 1151 days credit, the ONLY sensible approach is to use the online presence calculator, and when you do that there is NO NEED to wrestle with the impact of leap year days. You don't even need to know that 1 plus 2 equals 3. The calculator does ALL the arithmetic.

All you need to decide is how many days credit you want to apply with. And in that regard how much of a margin over the minimum you apply with is very much a personal choice. What is prudent depends on a lot of individually specific facts and circumstances.

BUT whether or not to use and rely on the actual physical presence calculator to do the arithmetic is simply a no-brainer. Forget about leap year days and let the calculator do the arithmetic.


FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION; Low-margin Risks:

If you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, the total stranger bureaucrats who will be making decisions about your application might feel the need to be more cautious and scrutinize your application more thoroughly, perhaps ask for more information or documentation to make sure you were in Canada each and every one of those days, which can involve RQ-related non-routine processing. So you could apply a few weeks sooner but have an elevated risk it will take a few months, or many months longer to process your application.

Of course, if you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, there is also the RISK that the total stranger bureaucrat who makes the final decision concludes there is enough of a possibility, that you were outside Canada a day or three more, to NOT be satisfied you have PROVEN you were actually physically present ALL the days you claim. In that case the the application is referred to a Citizenship Judge to conduct a hearing to determine if you have met the burden of proving that you were in fact in Canada each and every one of those days. If that happens, that could make the process take a YEAR longer, a year longer to find out if the CJ will be persuaded by your evidence, your proof, or if the CJ like that total stranger bureaucrat is also NOT satisfied you have met the burden of PROOF and rejects your application.

If you apply with just 1095 days credit, or even 1098 days credit, the GOOD NEWS is that MOST such applicants probably encounter no delays in processing, and all goes well. Of course we don't know the actual numbers. Is it one-in-three who end up with a much longer, or much, much longer processing timeline? And just one-in-six whose no-margin application gets rejected (whether due to a mistake or the bureaucrats not being satisfied about the applicant's proof)? If betting against one-in-six odds seems like a good bet to you, maybe ask yourself how many people you know think the odds are good playing Russian Roulette, where likewise the odds are favourable, only a one-in-six chance of getting a bullet in the head.

BY THE WAY . . . (or let's get real)

"So this rule . . . staying outside Canada for 730 days . . ."​

That is NOT a rule. That is IRCC information to help clients understand and apply the actual rules to their own situation. The rule is simple: to be eligible for a grant of citizenship, the applicant must be actually physically present in Canada 1095 days within the previous 5 years.

That is at an absolute minimum.

There are nuances. Days in Canada within the previous five years but before becoming a PR only get a half day credit.

There are details in doing the arithmetic and considering the calendar. Regarding which yes, February 29 in a leap year counts. Counts as a day absent if outside Canada that day. Counts as a day present if in Canada that day. But who cares? The online calculator takes care of these details. And approaching it any other way is, frankly, well there are a lot of descriptive ways to say it, just none in the being-smart ballpark.

Back to the IRCC guide for assessing eligibility: generally speaking, if a prospective applicant has been absent for more than 730 days, practically speaking he or she has not been in Canada at least 1095 days. Clue: not time to apply yet.

But sure, depending on calendar details and where one was on February 29 in leap years, some prospective applicants might TECHNICALLY be eligible if they were absent 731 or even 732 days during the relevant five years. That is, despite being absent 731 days, they were actually physically present 1095 days. And perhaps one or more of those prospective applicants (not too bright applicants), who are TECHNICALLY eligible despite being absent 731 or even 732 days, will apply relying on exactly 1095 days presence. Here again, there are a lot of ways to describe doing this, but none in the being-smart ballpark. Just consider the likely brain synapses triggered in the head of the total stranger bureaucrat who sees the applicant was absent 731 days during the five year eligibility period, and whether it seems like a good idea to place your $600 bet (plus the time) on how that total stranger bureaucrat will handle the application.

I get the full picture now. Again thanks a lot for your time, patience and great advice