if your residency obligations not met and you applied for PR card Renewal

[bricksonly]

Live for a continuous 3 year and apply for citizen!

 

[Salmansalat]

The machine does not automatically report RO violation. A CBSA officer must personally notice the violation, and decide to proceed to report it. In some cases they may just issue a warning. It's entirely at discretion of CBSA officer so many people get lucky.

EXACTLY. The machine doesnt check the RO. The officer does. I came to canada after 4 years and it let me in. I just had to confidently answer the officer's questions and they let me in (after loads of scrutiny)

 

[Copingwithlife]

Everyone shouldn’t get so comfortable though once this law is fully implemented

https://www.canada.ca/en/border-services-agency/news/2019/07/entryexit-initiative.html


“Verify whether applicants for permanent residency or citizenship have complied with residency requirements;“

Once the law is implemented fully in the summer of 2020, the data collected will be able to tell if someone was in compliance with the RO and the loophole ( thankfully) will be closed

 

[canuck78]

Everyone shouldn’t get so comfortable though once this law is fully implemented

https://www.canada.ca/en/border-services-agency/news/2019/07/entryexit-initiative.html


“Verify whether applicants for permanent residency or citizenship have complied with residency requirements;“

Once the law is implemented fully in the summer of 2020, the data collected will be able to tell if someone was in compliance with the RO and the loophole ( thankfully) will be closed

Thank goodness.

 

[dpenabill]

Everyone shouldn’t get so comfortable though once this law is fully implemented

https://www.canada.ca/en/border-services-agency/news/2019/07/entryexit-initiative.html


“Verify whether applicants for permanent residency or citizenship have complied with residency requirements;“

Once the law is implemented fully in the summer of 2020, the data collected will be able to tell if someone was in compliance with the RO and the loophole ( thankfully) will be closed

No "loophole" is being closed.

The window for successfully engaging in Residency-fraud is shrinking. But that is a different subject, and that has been the direction things have been going for a full decade now. No credible source or observer here condones let alone suggests PRs in breach of the Residency Obligation engage in fraud.

To be clear, failing to comply with the PR RO is NOT fraud, not at all, not in any sense.

And it is NOT fraud for a PR in breach of the RO to arrive at a Canadian PoE and seek entry, so long as the PR honestly responds to questions asked (including questions which in some way reveal how long it has been since the PR was last in Canada).

There is little or no indication that the change in data collection and access signals any change in the nature or scope of policies or the discretion employed in allowing PRs to enter Canada without being reported for a RO breach and thus given an opportunity to settle and stay in Canada as a Permanent Resident.

That is, the scope of border officers' discretion will likely remain the same. Including discretion to allow a PR to enter Canada without issuing a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility even though it appears there might be a PR Residency Obligation compliance issue. Indeed, odds are very high that just like now, the vast, vast majority of returning PRs will NOT be questioned much about RO compliance, let alone be referred to Secondary for a formal RO compliance examination, so it is not likely much will change at the border for returning PRs.

In particular, for those who honestly respond to the PIL officer's questions, the risk of a referral to Secondary will likely be comparable if not just about the same as it is now. Little or no change. Recognizing that for PRs who have failed to comply with the RO, there are a number of factors which influence that risk, especially the extent of the breach and the length of the last absence. Indeed, any PR in breach of the RO is AT-RISK of losing PR status. Now.

Those attempting to engage in fraud will be at much higher risk for being definitively exposed, particularly if and when they are examined about RO compliance IN SECONDARY. Some may think of fraud as a "loophole," but fraud has always been about getting caught or getting away with it. The latter tended to get too easy until about a decade ago. BUT NOT a loophole. Indeed, those caught making misrepresentations have long been at greater risk for more detrimental consequences than what was likely to happen if they had honestly disclosed information that would have negative consequences. That is, getting caught making misrepresentations (indeed, even being suspected of fraud) tends to make things worse, often a lot worse. Hardly any loophole at all.

 

[Copingwithlife]

No "loophole" is being closed.

The window for successfully engaging in Residency-fraud is shrinking. But that is a different subject, and that has been the direction things have been going for a full decade now. No credible source or observer here condones let alone suggests PRs in breach of the Residency Obligation engage in fraud.

To be clear, failing to comply with the PR RO is NOT fraud, not at all, not in any sense.

And it is NOT fraud for a PR in breach of the RO to arrive at a Canadian PoE and seek entry, so long as the PR honestly responds to questions asked (including questions which in some way reveal how long it has been since the PR was last in Canada).

There is little or no indication that the change in data collection and access signals any change in the nature or scope of policies or the discretion employed in allowing PRs to enter Canada without being reported for a RO breach and thus given an opportunity to settle and stay in Canada as a Permanent Resident.

That is, the scope of border officers' discretion will likely remain the same. Including discretion to allow a PR to enter Canada without issuing a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility even though it appears there might be a PR Residency Obligation compliance issue. Indeed, odds are very high that just like now, the vast, vast majority of returning PRs will NOT be questioned much about RO compliance, let alone be referred to Secondary for a formal RO compliance examination, so it is not likely much will change at the border for returning PRs.

In particular, for those who honestly respond to the PIL officer's questions, the risk of a referral to Secondary will likely be comparable if not just about the same as it is now. Little or no change. Recognizing that for PRs who have failed to comply with the RO, there are a number of factors which influence that risk, especially the extent of the breach and the length of the last absence. Indeed, any PR in breach of the RO is AT-RISK of losing PR status. Now.

Those attempting to engage in fraud will be at much higher risk for being definitively exposed, particularly if and when they are examined about RO compliance IN SECONDARY. Some may think of fraud as a "loophole," but fraud has always been about getting caught or getting away with it. The latter tended to get too easy until about a decade ago. BUT NOT a loophole. Indeed, those caught making misrepresentations have long been at greater risk for more detrimental consequences than what was likely to happen if they had honestly disclosed information that would have negative consequences. That is, getting caught making misrepresentations (indeed, even being suspected of fraud) tends to make things worse, often a lot worse. Hardly any loophole at all.

It was a term used in that link, which by the way , was from the friggin government

The collection of exit information enhances the CBSA’s ability to manage border security by closing the loop on an individual's travel history. This allows the CBSA to focus efforts and resources towards travellers of unknown or higher risk.

Could you please make your responses more detailed, and more off track, I thoroughly enjoy them
Remember, more isn't better

 

[dpenabill]

It was a term used in that link, which by the way , was from the friggin government

The collection of exit information enhances the CBSA’s ability to manage border security by closing the loop on an individual's travel history. This allows the CBSA to focus efforts and resources towards travellers of unknown or higher risk.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant by "loophole," as I took it to be the same as you have used here in the past, as in a loophole in PR RO enforcement policies.

To be clear, though, it is NOT TRUE that the term "loophole" is used in the Entry/Exit initiative Backgrounder. The "loop" referenced in the Backgrounder is a reference to a data-loop, to closing a gap in data-collection, referring to both ends of the travel history, date-of-exit data in addition to date-of-entry, not any "loophole" in PR Residency Obligation enforcement policies.

In any event, again, this enhancement in data collection is NOT likely to change much about a PR's prospects of being waived through the PIL (except perhaps for those attempting to engage in fraud, which has had dramatically declining odds for at least a decade), and there is no hint of any policy change regarding the discretion and flexibility border officials exercise toward returning PRs.

Remember, more isn't better

But some clarity rarely hurts. And here rather often tends to be badly needed.

Sarcasm, though, saying please when being overtly rude, for example, I will readily acknowledge that is indeed informative. Off-topic for sure. But revealing.

Could you please make your responses more detailed, and more off track, I thoroughly enjoy them

 

[sharmausct]

Hello All,

I want to travel to India due to some urgent work ( Mid Jan 2020 and return in the first week on Feb 2020). The expiry on my PR card is 25 Feb 2020.

My timeline:

PR Card Expiry Date 25 Feb 2020.
I and my family landed on 15th Jan 2015 and became PR.
I will complete 747 days living in Canada on Jan 15, 2020.
My wife and two Kids will complete 733 days living in Canada 0n April 30, 2020.


I have a few options in mind and need your suggestions.

1. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 2020 and wait for my PR card to arrive and then travel to India

Pros:
1. No questions will be asked while returning to Canada as I will have a new PR card in hand
Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

2. I am not sure when I will get the PR card in hand. I may need to wait for a longer period and I can't wait for more than mid-Feb 2020


2. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15, 2020, and travel immediately without waiting for PR card

Pros:
1. No waiting for the PR card and can travel as planned.
2. If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then I can say that I have already applied for PR renewal

Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

3. Do not apply for PR renewal and travel after 15 Jan and return before my PR card expires.

Pros: No chances of my family PR obligation discovered by CIC

Cons: If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then it may create a problem for me although I will be meeting RO obligations

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Hello All,

I want to travel to India due to some urgent work ( Mid Jan 2020 and return in the first week on Feb 2020). The expiry on my PR card is 25 Feb 2020.

My timeline:

PR Card Expiry Date 25 Feb 2020.
I and my family landed on 15th Jan 2015 and became PR.
I will complete 747 days living in Canada on Jan 15, 2020.
My wife and two Kids will complete 733 days living in Canada 0n April 30, 2020.


I have a few options in mind and need your suggestions.

1. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 2020 and wait for my PR card to arrive and then travel to India

Pros:
1. No questions will be asked while returning to Canada as I will have a new PR card in hand
Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

2. I am not sure when I will get the PR card in hand. I may need to wait for a longer period and I can't wait for more than mid-Feb 2020


2. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15, 2020, and travel immediately without waiting for PR card

Pros:
1. No waiting for the PR card and can travel as planned.
2. If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then I can say that I have already applied for PR renewal

Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

3. Do not apply for PR renewal and travel after 15 Jan and return before my PR card expires.

Pros: No chances of my family PR obligation discovered by CIC

Cons: If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then it may create a problem for me although I will be meeting RO obligations

If you apply so close to the cut-off, expect your app to go to secondary and take many months.

Your app has nothing to do with the statuses of your family members. IRCC will not look into them because of your app.

 

[dpenabill]

Hello All,

I want to travel to India due to some urgent work ( Mid Jan 2020 and return in the first week on Feb 2020). The expiry on my PR card is 25 Feb 2020.

My timeline:

PR Card Expiry Date 25 Feb 2020.
I and my family landed on 15th Jan 2015 and became PR.
I will complete 747 days living in Canada on Jan 15, 2020.
My wife and two Kids will complete 733 days living in Canada 0n April 30, 2020.


I have a few options in mind and need your suggestions.

1. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 2020 and wait for my PR card to arrive and then travel to India

Pros:
1. No questions will be asked while returning to Canada as I will have a new PR card in hand
Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

2. I am not sure when I will get the PR card in hand. I may need to wait for a longer period and I can't wait for more than mid-Feb 2020


2. Apply for PR renewal on Jan 15, 2020, and travel immediately without waiting for PR card

Pros:
1. No waiting for the PR card and can travel as planned.
2. If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then I can say that I have already applied for PR renewal

Cons:
1. If I apply before April 30, 2020, then my family will not be meeting RO of 730 days and that may attract CIC to look into my family case and can cause a problem for their PR renewal

3. Do not apply for PR renewal and travel after 15 Jan and return before my PR card expires.

Pros: No chances of my family PR obligation discovered by CIC

Cons: If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then it may create a problem for me although I will be meeting RO obligations

In addition to observations by @canuck_in_uk . . . .

Foremost: if you are definitely IN COMPLIANCE with the PR Residency Obligation, AND you will still be in compliance when you return to Canada, there is NO serious RO issue. Even if questioned about the RO, as long as you present reasonably sufficient information to show you are in compliance, there should be no serious problem, at worst a bit of a delay getting through the PoE due to some additional questioning in Secondary.

Thus, for example, if (1) you are now settled in Canada and have been here for most of the last two years, and (2) you are definitely in compliance with the RO, and (3) will continue to be in compliance when you return to Canada, and (4) you will be flying back to Canada with a still valid PR card in possession (so you can board the flight to Canada), THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM.

It should NOT matter whether you apply for a new PR card before traveling (note that the odds of being delivered a new PR card before January 15 or even the end of January are probably quite LOW, even if cutting-it-so-close does not trigger non-routine processing).

Indeed, if you are definitely in compliance, if you can travel via the U.S. you do not even need a valid PR card (all you need a valid PR card for is to get abroad a flight to Canada) or worry about obtaining a PR TD. You could return to Canada by traveling to the U.S. and then using land transportation to get to the Canadian border. At a Canadian PoE your expired PR card will be plenty good enough for getting into Canada . . . AS LONG AS you are in compliance with the PR RO.


Beyond that, some of the premises underlying your questions warrant clarification:

"No questions will be asked while returning to Canada as I will have a new PR card in hand"​

To be clear, the PR card has almost NOTHING to do with complying with the PR Residency Obligation.

Having a new PR card does NOT guarantee there will be no questions about RO compliance in a PoE examination when returning to Canada. What matters when a PR arrives at a PoE is whether, as of that day, the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the five years preceding that day. Whether the PR has no PR card or a new PR card, no matter what the expiration date of the PR card date is, what matters is how many days the PR has been IN Canada during the five years immediately preceding THAT DAY.

(There is a different calculation for a PR during the first five years after landing, but it is clear this no longer or at least very soon will have no relevance in your situation; for sure NO relevance after January 15, 2020.)

"If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then I can say that I have already applied for PR renewal"​

Again, the expiration date on your PR card is mostly NOT relevant. Yes, when a PR card is close to the date of expiration, DEPENDING on other factors that can influence whether a returning PR is referred to Secondary and subject to a more focused examination about RO compliance. But the OTHER FACTORS loom large in this.

More significantly it does NOT matter if you have already applied "for PR renewal."

For clarity: Most references to applying for "PR renewal" are just a way to say applying for a new PR card or PR card renewal. There is NO "PR renewal" as such.

Similarly regarding this:

"Cons: If I am stopped due to short expiry of my PR card then it may create a problem for me although I will be meeting RO obligations"​

Again, what matters most when you return is whether or not you are in compliance with the RO, and to some extent whether or not you are cutting-it-so-close PoE officials apprehend a breach of the RO and put the burden on you to show you are in compliance. Factors influencing the latter is a big subject. Again, the fact the PR card itself is soon to expire is something of a factor in terms of what might trigger border officers to make a more focused inquiry BUT beyond that the validity date of the PR card is NOT relevant and not a factor in calculating whether or not the returning PR is or is not in compliance with the RO.

IF YOU ARE DEFINITELY IN COMPLIANCE . . . the key really is whether or not you will still be in compliance with the RO when you return to Canada. At least one or ten days in the 747 days you are counting were back in January 2015, depending on how long you stayed in Canada when you came and landed January 15, 2015. REMEMBER those days here in 2015 will NO LONGER COUNT toward RO compliance when they are five years past. Thus, in particular, if you stayed for three or more weeks in early 2015, and you go abroad for three or more weeks, by the time you are returning to Canada you might be falling short of compliance.

The scenario you describe is common among many who landed, soon left Canada, and then it took nearly three years, or even a bit more, for them to come to Canada and settle permanently. For the vast majority in this situation, they stay here at least two straight years before engaging in any further transactions with IRCC or CBSA (no applications for PR cards, no travel outside Canada, for two full years), thereby avoiding any RO examination until they are fully in compliance with the RO.

This is common. There is no wrong done (even if the PR technically breached the RO but was allowed into Canada without being reported, there is NOTHING wrong about that, so long as, of course, the PR was truthful in responding to questions by Canadian officials).

However, some PRs in similar circumstances may have spent more time in Canada soon after landing. They too should be careful to STAY a full two years BEFORE engaging in any transactions with IRCC or CBSA (no applications for PR cards, no travel outside Canada, for two full years), because those days in Canada soon after landing will NO LONGER COUNT after five years.

 

[sharmausct]

Having a new PR card does NOT guarantee there will be no questions about RO compliance in a PoE examination when returning to Canada. What matters when a PR arrives at a PoE is whether, as of that day, the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the five years preceding that day. Whether the PR has no PR card or a new PR card, no matter what the expiration date of the PR card date is, what matters is how many days the PR has been IN Canada during the five years immediately preceding THAT DAY.

That means that suppose I apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 and PR is renewed than again I will not get a new 5 years period in which I need to spend 2 years out of 5 years. So this 5 year clock will not reset on the day when PR is renewed??


So for example I apply for PR renew on 15 jan and Receive PR on 15 feb, I travel to India and stay there for 6 months and I return on 15 aug, then they still count back 5 years from aug 15 and calculate 730 days in past 5 years.

Or it will be like they will start the clock from aug 15 and 5 years in future starting from aug 15 I need to stay 730 days in Canada, just like the way it is calculated when u get pr for first time

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Having a new PR card does NOT guarantee there will be no questions about RO compliance in a PoE examination when returning to Canada. What matters when a PR arrives at a PoE is whether, as of that day, the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the five years preceding that day. Whether the PR has no PR card or a new PR card, no matter what the expiration date of the PR card date is, what matters is how many days the PR has been IN Canada during the five years immediately preceding THAT DAY.

That means that suppose I apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 and PR is renewed than again I will not get a new 5 years period in which I need to spend 2 years out of 5 years. So this 5 year clock will not reset on the day when PR is renewed??


So for example I apply for PR renew on 15 jan and Receive PR on 15 feb, I travel to India and stay there for 6 months and I return on 15 aug, then they still count back 5 years from aug 15 and calculate 730 days in past 5 years.

Or it will be like they will start the clock from aug 15 and 5 years in future starting from aug 15 I need to stay 730 days in Canada, just like the way it is calculated when u get pr for first time

The 5 years doesn't re-start. At any point in time, if you look back, you need 730 days in Canada in the previous 5 years.

 

[dpenabill]

Having a new PR card does NOT guarantee there will be no questions about RO compliance in a PoE examination when returning to Canada. What matters when a PR arrives at a PoE is whether, as of that day, the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the five years preceding that day. Whether the PR has no PR card or a new PR card, no matter what the expiration date of the PR card date is, what matters is how many days the PR has been IN Canada during the five years immediately preceding THAT DAY.

That means that suppose I apply for PR renewal on Jan 15 and PR is renewed than again I will not get a new 5 years period in which I need to spend 2 years out of 5 years. So this 5 year clock will not reset on the day when PR is renewed??

So for example I apply for PR renew on 15 jan and Receive PR on 15 feb, I travel to India and stay there for 6 months and I return on 15 aug, then they still count back 5 years from aug 15 and calculate 730 days in past 5 years.

Or it will be like they will start the clock from aug 15 and 5 years in future starting from aug 15 I need to stay 730 days in Canada, just like the way it is calculated when u get pr for first time

There is NO restarting the clock.

Even if you have a brand new PR card, if you go abroad and return, say, August 15, 2020, what will matter is whether or not you have been IN Canada for at least 730 days between August 15, 2015 and August 14, 2020.

If you go abroad in 2021 and return, say, June 23, 2021, your compliance with the RO will depend on you having been IN Canada for at least 730 days between June 23, 2016 and June 22, 2021.

Likewise ANY day a PR arrives at a PoE and applies for entry into Canada. RO compliance is calculated based on the five years immediately preceding THAT DAY.

If you are attempting to assess the RISKS of being referred to Secondary at the PoE, that is a slightly different assessment. A relatively new PR card can reduce the risk of being referred to Secondary at the PoE. More than a few PRs are waived through without being questioned as to RO compliance even though they are to some extent in breach of the RO.

And trying to assess the RISK of being actually reported is also a somewhat different assessment. It appears that PRs who are settled in Canada tend to be given a chance or three at a PoE even if it appears they fall somewhat short.

But any PR who is short of being in compliance has some RISK of being reported for a breach of the RO, and calculating compliance depends on presence in Canada for at least 730 days within the five years prior to the day the PR is examined, which is typically within five years of the day the PR arrives at a PoE seeking entry into Canada.