Minor with expired PR seeking renewal advice

[Seifk]

Hello all,

I am seeking some help on an issue regarding my sister, whose PR card is expired.

Some background;

{She received her PR as part of a family-package, express-entry type of application back in 2011 when she was under nine years old. Fast forward to 2019, she is 16 years old (nearing 17), done with high school, and ready to get into university. The nearest intake we could get her was in January 2020, but we decided to have her come a few months earlier to settle and wind down before she gets into it.

Since she has an expired PR card, plus the fact that we did not apply for a TD (Due to time constraints), we decided to have her come through the Seattle-Vancouver PoE by car. The reason we made such a move was because that would have been the second time she would attempt to get into the country using that route.

She successfully entered about a year ago with my mother for a summer visit. My mother had trouble at the border as she did not meet the requirements for residency; She ended up renouncing her PR as she wished to visit us, unobstructed, in the future. My sister, on the other hand, was assured by immigration officers that she could re-enter the country without trouble should she decide to settle in Canada when the time finally comes. Their determination was based on the fact that she was, and continues to be a minor who did not have control over her fate while she accompanied my parents} - (Hope this brief intro helps others).

Last month when she arrived at the border a second time, officers were nice enough to let her know that she can enter for the same reasons outlined above, but warned that she would have to renew her PR ASAP to avoid future delays at the border. Now that the first hurdle was out of our way, a second one appeared; We were not sure whether filling a regular renewal application would be the right way to go. To elaborate further, we did not know whether she should just apply as a minor, and have a "guardian" help her fill her application and sign it for her; Or, would someone in her situation fall under the section addressing those who have spent "1095 days or more outside of Canada" during their eligible period.

I am almost sure that route #2 does not apply since none of the three scenarios offered in the application form applies to her - minor who has spent pretty much all of her eligibility period outside of Canada. On the other hand, route #1 seems a bit complicated since I think I'd need lots of other side work to get the "guardian" thing accomplished, but I might be wrong about this one. Furthermore, what should she write down in her eligibility day calculation? Is she okay putting all her time outside Canada as counted days toward her eligibility period? Or should she count all of the days as spent outside of the country, and write them a letter explaining her situation?

I hope this thread wasn't too lengthy and overly complicated. Your help will be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[vensak]

Hello all,

I am seeking some help on an issue regarding my sister, whose PR card is expired.

Some background;

{She received her PR as part of a family-package, express-entry type of application back in 2011 when she was under nine years old. Fast forward to 2019, she is 16 years old (nearing 17), done with high school, and ready to get into university. The nearest intake we could get her was in January 2020, but we decided to have her come a few months earlier to settle and wind down before she gets into it.

Since she has an expired PR card, plus the fact that we did not apply for a TD (Due to time constraints), we decided to have her come through the Seattle-Vancouver PoE by car. The reason we made such a move was because that would have been the second time she would attempt to get into the country using that route.

She successfully entered about a year ago with my mother for a summer visit. My mother had trouble at the border as she did not meet the requirements for residency; She ended up renouncing her PR as she wished to visit us, unobstructed, in the future. My sister, on the other hand, was assured by immigration officers that she could re-enter the country without trouble should she decide to settle in Canada when the time finally comes. Their determination was based on the fact that she was, and continues to be a minor who did not have control over her fate while she accompanied my parents} - (Hope this brief intro helps others).

Last month when she arrived at the border a second time, officers were nice enough to let her know that she can enter for the same reasons outlined above, but warned that she would have to renew her PR ASAP to avoid future delays at the border. Now that the first hurdle was out of our way, a second one appeared; We were not sure whether filling a regular renewal application would be the right way to go. To elaborate further, we did not know whether she should just apply as a minor, and have a "guardian" help her fill her application and sign it for her; Or, would someone in her situation fall under the section addressing those who have spent "1095 days or more outside of Canada" during their eligible period.

I am almost sure that route #2 does not apply since none of the three scenarios offered in the application form applies to her - minor who has spent pretty much all of her eligibility period outside of Canada. On the other hand, route #1 seems a bit complicated since I think I'd need lots of other side work to get the "guardian" thing accomplished, but I might be wrong about this one. Furthermore, what should she write down in her eligibility day calculation? Is she okay putting all her time outside Canada as counted days toward her eligibility period? Or should she count all of the days as spent outside of the country, and write them a letter explaining her situation?

I hope this thread wasn't too lengthy and overly complicated. Your help will be much appreciated. Thank you.

Applying for her PR card renewal is a very good way how to loose her PR. As she is still minor and the application has to be singed by her guardian, which is her parent, that will of course put any H&C reasons out of the window.
And no, it is NOT OK to count days outside Canada, unless she was accompanying Canadian parent.

So her only way for now is to sit silent in Canada for 2 years and fullfil RO and then apply for a PR card. As she could entered as minor (which you can do only with your parents consent), she cannot use the removed as minor loophole, even when she will be 18 years old. Yes in her case is just a clear loophole as she is one of those standard cases of spending little to no time in Canada and then returning to study in University.

All that inconvenience of not having a valid PR card (that can also mean not to be accepted by University of her choice) is less than having your PR removed.

Of course she can also check with an immigration lawyer

 

[Copingwithlife]

The Government seriously has to take steps to close that "loophole"

 

[dpenabill]

Hello all,

I am seeking some help on an issue regarding my sister, whose PR card is expired.

Some background;

{She received her PR as part of a family-package, express-entry type of application back in 2011 when she was under nine years old. Fast forward to 2019, she is 16 years old (nearing 17), done with high school, and ready to get into university. The nearest intake we could get her was in January 2020, but we decided to have her come a few months earlier to settle and wind down before she gets into it.

Since she has an expired PR card, plus the fact that we did not apply for a TD (Due to time constraints), we decided to have her come through the Seattle-Vancouver PoE by car. The reason we made such a move was because that would have been the second time she would attempt to get into the country using that route.

She successfully entered about a year ago with my mother for a summer visit. My mother had trouble at the border as she did not meet the requirements for residency; She ended up renouncing her PR as she wished to visit us, unobstructed, in the future. My sister, on the other hand, was assured by immigration officers that she could re-enter the country without trouble should she decide to settle in Canada when the time finally comes. Their determination was based on the fact that she was, and continues to be a minor who did not have control over her fate while she accompanied my parents} - (Hope this brief intro helps others).

Last month when she arrived at the border a second time, officers were nice enough to let her know that she can enter for the same reasons outlined above, but warned that she would have to renew her PR ASAP to avoid future delays at the border. Now that the first hurdle was out of our way, a second one appeared; We were not sure whether filling a regular renewal application would be the right way to go. To elaborate further, we did not know whether she should just apply as a minor, and have a "guardian" help her fill her application and sign it for her; Or, would someone in her situation fall under the section addressing those who have spent "1095 days or more outside of Canada" during their eligible period.

I am almost sure that route #2 does not apply since none of the three scenarios offered in the application form applies to her - minor who has spent pretty much all of her eligibility period outside of Canada. On the other hand, route #1 seems a bit complicated since I think I'd need lots of other side work to get the "guardian" thing accomplished, but I might be wrong about this one. Furthermore, what should she write down in her eligibility day calculation? Is she okay putting all her time outside Canada as counted days toward her eligibility period? Or should she count all of the days as spent outside of the country, and write them a letter explaining her situation?

I hope this thread wasn't too lengthy and overly complicated. Your help will be much appreciated. Thank you.

The safest way to keep PR status is to STAY in Canada long enough to be in full compliance with the PR Residency Obligation BEFORE engaging in any further transactions with IRCC or CBSA.

This means NOT leaving, and thereby avoiding PoE examinations upon returning to Canada.

This means NOT making an application for a new PR card.

That said, obviously, as she has been informed at the PoE on multiple occasions, as a PR who was removed from Canada as a minor, that constitutes a strong, positive H&C factor heavily favouring allowing her to keep PR status. So she could apply for a PR card and have a very good chance of being issued one.

THIS IS NO LOOPHOLE. This is based on well-established policy applied across the board in the interpretation and application of Canadian immigration law, which gives a high priority to protecting the rights and INTERESTS of minor children generally and especially those who are a Canadian (which PRs are). And as much as it may bother some, there is NO likelihood there will be any major change in the policy in the foreseeable future. Even a majority Conservative government is not likely to change the underlying policy, even if it more aggressively scrutinizes and considers other factors in H&C cases (such as lack of establishment and/or lack of other ties) involving PRs who attempt to return to Canada from abroad who left or did not stay in Canada while they were a minor. (Being removed as a minor is just ONE H&C factor, among the most important factors to be sure BUT nonetheless just ONE factor to be considered in conjunction with many others. Which to recognize that just the fact of being "removed" as a minor is NO guarantee there will be a favourable H&C outcome.)

In any event, yes, her age means she has a very strong H&C case, so it is true (as officials at the border suggested), there is a very good likelihood she will be issued a new PR card if she applies for one despite not being in Canada 730 days within the past five years. BUT the best H&C case is NO WHERE NEAR as good as simply being in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. Any PR who is in breach of the RO is at RISK for losing PR status anytime that PR engages in any transaction with IRCC requiring or likely to trigger a RO determination. IRCC MUST engage in a RO determination when a PR applies for a PR card.

There is NOTHING wrong with staying in Canada without a currently valid PR card. The PR is still a Canadian. The PR is still entitled to all the rights and privileges of a Canadian PR. There can be some logistical problems, such as verifying Canadian status for various purposes, such as obtaining health care coverage, domestic tuition, or such. And of course a PR card would facilitate returning to Canada if the individual has a need for traveling abroad.

But, again, there is always some RISK even for the best H&C case, and thus the best H&C case is NO WHERE NEAR as good as simply staying until the PR is in compliance with the RO.

Otherwise there are mixed reports about how things go for those who are still a minor. There appears to be a significantly higher risk a PR TD application will be denied, for example. There is minimal reporting about PR card applications. In any event, it appears she is close enough to 18 years of age that WAITING at least that long is probably an easy call, virtually a no-brainer. Apart from that, otherwise the longer she stays in Canada before applying for a PR card the better, even if (for whatever reason) she elects to make the PR card application before staying long enough to be in full compliance with the PR RO.



A CLARIFICATION:

it is NOT OK to count days outside Canada, unless she was accompanying Canadian parent.

I am guessing you are referring to accompanying a Canadian citizen. There are different rules applicable for spouses and minor dependent PRs accompanying a Canadian depending on whether the Canadian is a Canadian citizen or Canadian PR.

A minor or spouse accompanying a Canadian who is a Canadian citizen is entitled to credit for time abroad accompanying the parent or spouse, respectively.

A minor or spouse accompanying a Canadian who is a Canadian PR may also be entitled to similar credit in particular circumstances where, essentially, the parent or spouse is entitled to credit based on the employed abroad by Canadian government or business credit (remembering that the credit for employed by a Canadian business is TRICKY and narrowly interpreted and strictly applied).

(A just-in-case sort of reminder: Yes, Canadian PRs are "Canadian" in Canadian law.)

 

[canuck78]

You refer to your grandmother visiting your family in the future. Who is actually living in Canada. Are they all compliant with their RO?

 

[Seifk]

Applying for her PR card renewal is a very good way how to loose her PR. As she is still minor and the application has to be singed by her guardian, which is her parent, that will of course put any H&C reasons out of the window.
And no, it is NOT OK to count days outside Canada, unless she was accompanying Canadian parent.

So her only way for now is to sit silent in Canada for 2 years and fullfil RO and then apply for a PR card. As she could entered as minor (which you can do only with your parents consent), she cannot use the removed as minor loophole, even when she will be 18 years old. Yes in her case is just a clear loophole as she is one of those standard cases of spending little to no time in Canada and then returning to study in University.

All that inconvenience of not having a valid PR card (that can also mean not to be accepted by University of her choice) is less than having your PR removed.

Of course she can also check with an immigration lawyer

Thank you for your input! That makes sense. However, I do think that while the "removed as a minor" process can be used as a potential 'loophole' in some cases to circumvent, my sister's case is adequately not considered as such. That was outlined to her at the border on both entry occasions; She is allowed to enter the country because she was removed as a minor, and could even do that a few times if she has substantial grounds and under particular circumstances for departure and re-entry (Say, an emergency or death of a family member). But, they did recommend against that to avoid long wait and interrogation times at the border.

 

[Seifk]

The safest way to keep PR status is to STAY in Canada long enough to be in full compliance with the PR Residency Obligation BEFORE engaging in any further transactions with IRCC or CBSA.

This means NOT leaving, and thereby avoiding PoE examinations upon returning to Canada.

This means NOT making an application for a new PR card.

That said, obviously, as she has been informed at the PoE on multiple occasions, as a PR who was removed from Canada as a minor, that constitutes a strong, positive H&C factor heavily favouring allowing her to keep PR status. So she could apply for a PR card and have a very good chance of being issued one.

THIS IS NO LOOPHOLE. This is based on well-established policy applied across the board in the interpretation and application of Canadian immigration law, which gives a high priority to protecting the rights and INTERESTS of minor children generally and especially those who are a Canadian (which PRs are). And as much as it may bother some, there is NO likelihood there will be any major change in the policy in the foreseeable future. Even a majority Conservative government is not likely to change the underlying policy, even if it more aggressively scrutinizes and considers other factors in H&C cases (such as lack of establishment and/or lack of other ties) involving PRs who attempt to return to Canada from abroad who left or did not stay in Canada while they were a minor. (Being removed as a minor is just ONE H&C factor, among the most important factors to be sure BUT nonetheless just ONE factor to be considered in conjunction with many others. Which to recognize that just the fact of being "removed" as a minor is NO guarantee there will be a favourable H&C outcome.)

In any event, yes, her age means she has a very strong H&C case, so it is true (as officials at the border suggested), there is a very good likelihood she will be issued a new PR card if she applies for one despite not being in Canada 730 days within the past five years. BUT the best H&C case is NO WHERE NEAR as good as simply being in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. Any PR who is in breach of the RO is at RISK for losing PR status anytime that PR engages in any transaction with IRCC requiring or likely to trigger a RO determination. IRCC MUST engage in a RO determination when a PR applies for a PR card.

There is NOTHING wrong with staying in Canada without a currently valid PR card. The PR is still a Canadian. The PR is still entitled to all the rights and privileges of a Canadian PR. There can be some logistical problems, such as verifying Canadian status for various purposes, such as obtaining health care coverage, domestic tuition, or such. And of course a PR card would facilitate returning to Canada if the individual has a need for traveling abroad.

But, again, there is always some RISK even for the best H&C case, and thus the best H&C case is NO WHERE NEAR as good as simply staying until the PR is in compliance with the RO.

Otherwise there are mixed reports about how things go for those who are still a minor. There appears to be a significantly higher risk a PR TD application will be denied, for example. There is minimal reporting about PR card applications. In any event, it appears she is close enough to 18 years of age that WAITING at least that long is probably an easy call, virtually a no-brainer. Apart from that, otherwise the longer she stays in Canada before applying for a PR card the better, even if (for whatever reason) she elects to make the PR card application before staying long enough to be in full compliance with the PR RO.



A CLARIFICATION:



I am guessing you are referring to accompanying a Canadian citizen. There are different rules applicable for spouses and minor dependent PRs accompanying a Canadian depending on whether the Canadian is a Canadian citizen or Canadian PR.

A minor or spouse accompanying a Canadian who is a Canadian citizen is entitled to credit for time abroad accompanying the parent or spouse, respectively.

A minor or spouse accompanying a Canadian who is a Canadian PR may also be entitled to similar credit in particular circumstances where, essentially, the parent or spouse is entitled to credit based on the employed abroad by Canadian government or business credit (remembering that the credit for employed by a Canadian business is TRICKY and narrowly interpreted and strictly applied).

(A just-in-case sort of reminder: Yes, Canadian PRs are "Canadian" in Canadian law.)

Very informative reply! Thank you for taking the time to explain in detail. Much appreciated.

 

[Seifk]

You refer to your grandmother visiting your family in the future. Who is actually living in Canada. Are they all compliant with their RO?

It is rather my mother that plans on visiting us in the future. She chose to renounce her PR at the border last time she was here on a 30-day visit because keeping it would have meant a court case and an appeal process. She was never really interested in meeting the RO but wishes to be still able to visit my sisters and I freely from time to time, and attempting to keep the PR wasn't going to help at all. She prefers acquiring a family or a super visa so that she is not chained by the RO rules when it comes to future entries.

That being said, both my mother and sister were not compliant with their RO (By a long shot), and that's why she resided to the dynamic detailed above so she is not bound by the RO. My sister, on the other hand, as you can see in my replies to others in this thread, was granted easy entry because she was designated under the "removed as a minor" category, and was dealt with much differently than what an adult in the same position would be.

 

[canuck78]

As we have seen more often, minors who removed from Canada are no longer guaranteed PRTDs especially if their families have not spent any time in Canada. This is an immigration technique being used to secure PR and domestic tuition for children. Assume at some point this may trickle down to the borders as well. Did your family spend any time living in Canada?

 

[vensak]

It is rather my mother that plans on visiting us in the future. She chose to renounce her PR at the border last time she was here on a 30-day visit because keeping it would have meant a court case and an appeal process. She was never really interested in meeting the RO but wishes to be still able to visit my sisters and I freely from time to time, and attempting to keep the PR wasn't going to help at all. She prefers acquiring a family or a super visa so that she is not chained by the RO rules when it comes to future entries.

That being said, both my mother and sister were not compliant with their RO (By a long shot), and that's why she resided to the dynamic detailed above so she is not bound by the RO. My sister, on the other hand, as you can see in my replies to others in this thread, was granted easy entry because she was designated under the "removed as a minor" category, and was dealt with much differently than what an adult in the same position would be.

Your sister was lucky to meet somebody kind.
As she was returning as minor both officer had full authority to report her. Removing as minor did not apply in that case yet ash she was returning as minor. In that case your parents were to be questioned why that child did not meet the residency obligation.
Mind you that loophole and again I will call it a loophole in case of your sister, can only be used by the child that was removed when that child is legally adult and not by parents, as they were the one freely deciding upon child's physical presence.
Would she have ever asked for PRTD, then she would have been rejected, you can be certain about that.

Think of it as if your sister was over-speeding when driving. but the officer was kind enough to overlook it because whatever. I guess that is the easier way to understand what happened.

PR is a privilege she should be still happy to have and not an entitlement just because of her age.