Mom's application returned

[Rossei]

I applied for my mother's citizenship on 23-Jul-19 and it was returned in the following month due to "an error in her physical presence calculation". This is basically the summary of the letter they provided along with the full application:

"On your application and physical presence calculation that you completed, you indicated having a total of 1221 days of physical presence. However, based on the review of the info provided by you and following an initial completeness check of your time in Canada prior to becoming a PR, it appears that you didn't accumulate 1095 days of physical presence before applying.

This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons; however, most of the time this is due to the applicant's error in the physical presence calculation. In your particular circumstance, some or all of the time reported on the physical presence calculator (prior to PR date) could not be confirmed in our records. Please, note that you can only claim time spent in Canada prior to the PR date if you were considered a Temporary Resident or Protected Person as defined by the Immigration and Refugee Act."

Now, I've gone over and over with her application and physical presence calculation; but couldn't identify the error. Let me give you a summary of her presence in Canada:

Citizenship app signed: 23-Jul-2019 (5-year window: 23-Jul-2014 to 23-Jul-2019)
[My mom lived with me on and off w/ Supervisa prior to becoming a PR on 15-Oct-2016]

As a PR: 15-Oct-2016 to 23-Jul-2019: My mom was present for 895 days
As a Visitor: 23-Jul-2014 to 14-Oct-2016: My mom was present for 652 days
(1st Visit: 1-Nov-2014 to 23-May-2016: 570 days
2nd Visit: 25-Jul-2016 to 14-Oct-2016: 82 days)

Total = 895 + 652 x 0.5 = 1221 days

All the absences are recorded in her passport(s) thru entry-exit stamps which I provided. I'm totally baffled here for not having a clue. Either her presence as a visitor is NOT counted at all or they're overlooking something.

Please, help me here. Should I wait till she makes >1095 days as a PR (and forget her days as a visitor)? Also, no idea what happens to the payment I made.

 

[dpenabill]

I applied for my mother's citizenship on 23-Jul-19 and it was returned in the following month due to "an error in her physical presence calculation". This is basically the summary of the letter they provided along with the full application:

"On your application and physical presence calculation that you completed, you indicated having a total of 1221 days of physical presence. However, based on the review of the info provided by you and following an initial completeness check of your time in Canada prior to becoming a PR, it appears that you didn't accumulate 1095 days of physical presence before applying.

This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons; however, most of the time this is due to the applicant's error in the physical presence calculation. In your particular circumstance, some or all of the time reported on the physical presence calculator (prior to PR date) could not be confirmed in our records. Please, note that you can only claim time spent in Canada prior to the PR date if you were considered a Temporary Resident or Protected Person as defined by the Immigration and Refugee Act."

Now, I've gone over and over with her application and physical presence calculation; but couldn't identify the error. Let me give you a summary of her presence in Canada:

Citizenship app signed: 23-Jul-2019 (5-year window: 23-Jul-2014 to 23-Jul-2019)
[My mom lived with me on and off w/ Supervisa prior to becoming a PR on 15-Oct-2016]

As a PR: 15-Oct-2016 to 23-Jul-2019: My mom was present for 895 days
As a Visitor: 23-Jul-2014 to 14-Oct-2016: My mom was present for 652 days
(1st Visit: 1-Nov-2014 to 23-May-2016: 570 days
2nd Visit: 25-Jul-2016 to 14-Oct-2016: 82 days)

Total = 895 + 652 x 0.5 = 1221 days

All the absences are recorded in her passport(s) thru entry-exit stamps which I provided. I'm totally baffled here for not having a clue. Either her presence as a visitor is NOT counted at all or they're overlooking something.

Please, help me here. Should I wait till she makes >1095 days as a PR (and forget her days as a visitor)? Also, no idea what happens to the payment I made.

This is not the first report here about applications returned in the completeness check phase based on IRCC records not verifying pre-PR time.

Technically days in Canada with status, including status as a visitor, count toward the grant citizenship requirement. However, the burden of proving BOTH presence AND status is on the applicant. When IRCC records do not confirm claimed presence WITH STATUS, this poses a problem for the applicant.

Usually this arises for those who are visa-exempt, and who were waived into Canada without the CBSA border officials capturing a record of the entry to be recorded with the the client's history. Why your parent, why now, I cannot guess.

Obviously, since Canada is a rule of law country, recourse is available. In a general sense, however, it is a matter of whether pursuing legal remedies is worth it. Just because someone potentially has a lawsuit does not mean it is worth pursuing a lawsuit. Especially when just waiting a little longer and submitting a new application will probably be faster, easier, and far less expensive. (I believe she will be able to still use the fees paid, but am not certain.)

She could, for example, make a demand that IRCC process the application. This can be more complicated than it seems. This would not alleviate the burden of proof being on her. It would necessarily be a non-routine application, hence have a significantly slower processing period of time.

But yeah, the Pre-PR time should count. As I and a few others periodically caution, however, some time spent visiting Canada may be questioned and, depending on the applicant's PROOF, not readily counted.

 

[k300k3]

I applied for my mother's citizenship on 23-Jul-19 and it was returned in the following month due to "an error in her physical presence calculation". This is basically the summary of the letter they provided along with the full application:

"On your application and physical presence calculation that you completed, you indicated having a total of 1221 days of physical presence. However, based on the review of the info provided by you and following an initial completeness check of your time in Canada prior to becoming a PR, it appears that you didn't accumulate 1095 days of physical presence before applying.

This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons; however, most of the time this is due to the applicant's error in the physical presence calculation. In your particular circumstance, some or all of the time reported on the physical presence calculator (prior to PR date) could not be confirmed in our records. Please, note that you can only claim time spent in Canada prior to the PR date if you were considered a Temporary Resident or Protected Person as defined by the Immigration and Refugee Act."

Now, I've gone over and over with her application and physical presence calculation; but couldn't identify the error. Let me give you a summary of her presence in Canada:

Citizenship app signed: 23-Jul-2019 (5-year window: 23-Jul-2014 to 23-Jul-2019)
[My mom lived with me on and off w/ Supervisa prior to becoming a PR on 15-Oct-2016]

As a PR: 15-Oct-2016 to 23-Jul-2019: My mom was present for 895 days
As a Visitor: 23-Jul-2014 to 14-Oct-2016: My mom was present for 652 days
(1st Visit: 1-Nov-2014 to 23-May-2016: 570 days
2nd Visit: 25-Jul-2016 to 14-Oct-2016: 82 days)

Total = 895 + 652 x 0.5 = 1221 days

All the absences are recorded in her passport(s) thru entry-exit stamps which I provided. I'm totally baffled here for not having a clue. Either her presence as a visitor is NOT counted at all or they're overlooking something.

Please, help me here. Should I wait till she makes >1095 days as a PR (and forget her days as a visitor)? Also, no idea what happens to the payment I made.

IRCC must’ve calculated it up to just 365 days as a non PR.

In that case,
Physical presence as:
PR = 895 days
Pre PR = 365 x 0.5 = 182.5
Total physical presence = 1077.5 only

But according to the law, the credit may be up to 365 days (which means physical presence as pre PR of up to 730 days) .

You should contact the call Center and ask . The call Center agents have supervisors and they can verify with them . Also, you should send a web form regarding the situation.

 

[Masih_001]

I applied for my mother's citizenship on 23-Jul-19 and it was returned in the following month due to "an error in her physical presence calculation". This is basically the summary of the letter they provided along with the full application:

"On your application and physical presence calculation that you completed, you indicated having a total of 1221 days of physical presence. However, based on the review of the info provided by you and following an initial completeness check of your time in Canada prior to becoming a PR, it appears that you didn't accumulate 1095 days of physical presence before applying.

This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons; however, most of the time this is due to the applicant's error in the physical presence calculation. In your particular circumstance, some or all of the time reported on the physical presence calculator (prior to PR date) could not be confirmed in our records. Please, note that you can only claim time spent in Canada prior to the PR date if you were considered a Temporary Resident or Protected Person as defined by the Immigration and Refugee Act."

Now, I've gone over and over with her application and physical presence calculation; but couldn't identify the error. Let me give you a summary of her presence in Canada:

Citizenship app signed: 23-Jul-2019 (5-year window: 23-Jul-2014 to 23-Jul-2019)
[My mom lived with me on and off w/ Supervisa prior to becoming a PR on 15-Oct-2016]

As a PR: 15-Oct-2016 to 23-Jul-2019: My mom was present for 895 days
As a Visitor: 23-Jul-2014 to 14-Oct-2016: My mom was present for 652 days
(1st Visit: 1-Nov-2014 to 23-May-2016: 570 days
2nd Visit: 25-Jul-2016 to 14-Oct-2016: 82 days)

Total = 895 + 652 x 0.5 = 1221 days

All the absences are recorded in her passport(s) thru entry-exit stamps which I provided. I'm totally baffled here for not having a clue. Either her presence as a visitor is NOT counted at all or they're overlooking something.

Please, help me here. Should I wait till she makes >1095 days as a PR (and forget her days as a visitor)? Also, no idea what happens to the payment I made.

From the reply of IRCC, your mom is not considered to be on a temporary visa as you are from non visa exempt country and neighed is your mom considered as protected person you should wait for another couple of months to meet the time frame and then apply.

 

[Rossei]

Thanks for the answers guys.

This is really a BS that your non-PR days don't count even when it says it will as a visitor. We're from Bangladesh which is not a visa-exempt country and each time my mom entered-exited Canada, there was a stamp on her passport. And I know that doesn't mean the POE officer made an entry to the record which is another BS.

Anyway, I will perhaps apply next year when she gains >1095 days as a PR. Not sure how my payment will work. Tried calling call centre, didn't help first time as there was no file created.

 

[k300k3]

Thanks for the answers guys.

This is really a BS that your non-PR days don't count even when it says it will as a visitor. We're from Bangladesh which is not a visa-exempt country and each time my mom entered-exited Canada, there was a stamp on her passport. And I know that doesn't mean the POE officer made an entry to the record which is another BS.

Anyway, I will perhaps apply next year when she gains >1095 days as a PR. Not sure how my payment will work. Tried calling call centre, didn't help first time as there was no file created.

Was the payment returned to you ?

 

[bellaluna]

Thanks for the answers guys.

This is really a BS that your non-PR days don't count even when it says it will as a visitor. We're from Bangladesh which is not a visa-exempt country and each time my mom entered-exited Canada, there was a stamp on her passport. And I know that doesn't mean the POE officer made an entry to the record which is another BS.

Anyway, I will perhaps apply next year when she gains >1095 days as a PR. Not sure how my payment will work. Tried calling call centre, didn't help first time as there was no file created.

AFAIK, since no file was created, it means you should be able to reuse that same receipt.

Let’s hope someone else can confirm.

 

[Rossei]

I called again on Friday and surprisingly an agent picked up the phone just after 2 rings. After getting my info, she went back to talk to her supervisor and told me that the non-PR days should have been counted. And if I choose to re-apply, I should include her boarding passes and an explanation. Also, any payment made post 2014 is valid for "indefinite" period; so I can re-use it.

I will perhaps apply next year when my mom accumulates >1095 days as a PR. In that case, do I have to show that she lived in Canada as a visitor prior to her PR date? I don't want to as it seems that they don't have any record. However, will it not portray false info? (seems like it's my fault somehow)

 

[dpenabill]

This is really a BS that your non-PR days don't count even when it says it will as a visitor. We're from Bangladesh which is not a visa-exempt country and each time my mom entered-exited Canada, there was a stamp on her passport. And I know that doesn't mean the POE officer made an entry to the record which is another BS.

Not sure what technically qualifies for the "BS" label but as I noted before: The burden of proof is on the applicant. And there is recourse available when mistakes are made.

And, as you have learned, it may be relatively easy to obtain recourse by re-submitting the application.

I called again on Friday and surprisingly an agent picked up the phone just after 2 rings. After getting my info, she went back to talk to her supervisor and told me that the non-PR days should have been counted. And if I choose to re-apply, I should include her boarding passes and an explanation. Also, any payment made post 2014 is valid for "indefinite" period; so I can re-use it.

I will perhaps apply next year when my mom accumulates >1095 days as a PR. In that case, do I have to show that she lived in Canada as a visitor prior to her PR date? I don't want to as it seems that they don't have any record. However, will it not portray false info? (seems like it's my fault somehow)

Or, as you prudently discern, perhaps it is a good idea to wait and apply when it is NOT necessary to have credit for pre-PR days.

If you do this, there should be NO issue, NO problem, truthfully detailing all the times she has been physically IN Canada during the previous five years, including any pre-PR time.

What tripped up the returned application, most likely, is that during the completeness check, IRCC internal records did not verify presence with status for some (or all) of that pre-PR time, leaving her SHORT in what IRCC could verify. If she re-applies and her physical presence calculation exceeds 1095 days based on time in Canada AFTER becoming a PR, that will be enough to pass the completeness check without having to verify presence with status for any pre-PR time. Then, even during the later more thorough verification of qualifications processing, likewise IRCC will not need to verify the pre-PR time in order to conclude she meets the requirements. No problem. And, in the meantime, those pre-PR days in Canada should nonetheless make a positive overall impression. Not likely to make a big difference but it is reassuring to have a cushion over the minimum. And that goes for the Citizenship Officer as well, meaning the Citizenship Officer can be more confident about making the right decision granting citizenship when there is a comfortable margin over the minimum presence requirement.

So, yes, have her report the pre-PR time even if she waits to after meeting the minimum requirement based on time in Canada as a PR.

 

[Rossei]

Not sure what technically qualifies for the "BS" label but as I noted before: The burden of proof is on the applicant. And there is recourse available when mistakes are made.

And, as you have learned, it may be relatively easy to obtain recourse by re-submitting the application.

Or, as you prudently discern, perhaps it is a good idea to wait and apply when it is NOT necessary to have credit for pre-PR days.

If you do this, there should be NO issue, NO problem, truthfully detailing all the times she has been physically IN Canada during the previous five years, including any pre-PR time.

What tripped up the returned application, most likely, is that during the completeness check, IRCC internal records did not verify presence with status for some (or all) of that pre-PR time, leaving her SHORT in what IRCC could verify. If she re-applies and her physical presence calculation exceeds 1095 days based on time in Canada AFTER becoming a PR, that will be enough to pass the completeness check without having to verify presence with status for any pre-PR time. Then, even during the later more thorough verification of qualifications processing, likewise IRCC will not need to verify the pre-PR time in order to conclude she meets the requirements. No problem. And, in the meantime, those pre-PR days in Canada should nonetheless make a positive overall impression. Not likely to make a big difference but it is reassuring to have a cushion over the minimum. And that goes for the Citizenship Officer as well, meaning the Citizenship Officer can be more confident about making the right decision granting citizenship when there is a comfortable margin over the minimum presence requirement.

So, yes, have her report the pre-PR time even if she waits to after meeting the minimum requirement based on time in Canada as a PR.

When an application is returned, by default, it can be assumed that mistakes have been made from the applicant. And so did I although this is my first returned application. I sat back, went thru the whole application package, residence calculation and all her records and I've come to realize that I did not make any mistake.

This frustrates me as I waited few months more to be "on the safe side" and made plans for my mom accordingly (she is leaving Canada next month for 3 months). I did not find any wording anywhere to provide proof of residence for her non-PR days. However, I provided the passport pages where all her entry-exit stamps were made. To my knowledge, a boarding pass cannot overrule an entry/exit stamp. She lived here as a visitor, so there is neither health nor SIN/work records that I can avail. I call it a BS (which I seldom do) since IRCC FAILED to verify CBSA stamps with their internal records and also FAILED to tell us what specifically was short/ non-verifiable so that we could try to rectify it. As you mentioned, it could be her whole non-PR period that is questionable. In other words, IRCC is forcing me now to apply with 1095 PR days, shouldn't be this way.

 

[alienzz-00]

I called again on Friday and surprisingly an agent picked up the phone just after 2 rings. After getting my info, she went back to talk to her supervisor and told me that the non-PR days should have been counted. And if I choose to re-apply, I should include her boarding passes and an explanation. Also, any payment made post 2014 is valid for "indefinite" period; so I can re-use it.

I will perhaps apply next year when my mom accumulates >1095 days as a PR. In that case, do I have to show that she lived in Canada as a visitor prior to her PR date? I don't want to as it seems that they don't have any record. However, will it not portray false info? (seems like it's my fault somehow)

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/fees/refund.asp

 

[Aby444]

I applied for my mother's citizenship on 23-Jul-19 and it was returned in the following month due to "an error in her physical presence calculation". This is basically the summary of the letter they provided along with the full application:

"On your application and physical presence calculation that you completed, you indicated having a total of 1221 days of physical presence. However, based on the review of the info provided by you and following an initial completeness check of your time in Canada prior to becoming a PR, it appears that you didn't accumulate 1095 days of physical presence before applying.

This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons; however, most of the time this is due to the applicant's error in the physical presence calculation. In your particular circumstance, some or all of the time reported on the physical presence calculator (prior to PR date) could not be confirmed in our records. Please, note that you can only claim time spent in Canada prior to the PR date if you were considered a Temporary Resident or Protected Person as defined by the Immigration and Refugee Act."

Now, I've gone over and over with her application and physical presence calculation; but couldn't identify the error. Let me give you a summary of her presence in Canada:

Citizenship app signed: 23-Jul-2019 (5-year window: 23-Jul-2014 to 23-Jul-2019)
[My mom lived with me on and off w/ Supervisa prior to becoming a PR on 15-Oct-2016]

As a PR: 15-Oct-2016 to 23-Jul-2019: My mom was present for 895 days
As a Visitor: 23-Jul-2014 to 14-Oct-2016: My mom was present for 652 days
(1st Visit: 1-Nov-2014 to 23-May-2016: 570 days
2nd Visit: 25-Jul-2016 to 14-Oct-2016: 82 days)

Total = 895 + 652 x 0.5 = 1221 days

All the absences are recorded in her passport(s) thru entry-exit stamps which I provided. I'm totally baffled here for not having a clue. Either her presence as a visitor is NOT counted at all or they're overlooking something.

Please, help me here. Should I wait till she makes >1095 days as a PR (and forget her days as a visitor)? Also, no idea what happens to the payment I made.

I think you should check out this thread https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/citizenship-app-returned-as-incomplete.644311/ and re-apply again following the steps this person took. e.g showing examples of entry/exit stamps, and having a solid explanation letter. No need to wait until next year