NOC 4011 for lecturers

[vivosvoco]

Hi,

Has anyone successfully got PR with lecturer experience? I'm currently teaching at a university as a lecturer, but I only have teaching duties. No research & administration are required. I don't know if this will make my percentage too low. Here is the list of NOC 4011 duties:

• Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
• Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
• Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
• Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
• Direct programs of graduate students and advise on research matters
• Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books
• May serve on faculty committees dealing with such matters as curriculum planning and degree requirements, and perform a variety of administrative duties
• May represent their universities as speakers and guest lecturers
• May provide professional consultative services to government, industry and private individuals.

If I exclude those "May" duties, I perform 4 out of 6 duties (67%). But if I include those "May" duties, the percentage drops to 44%.

I'd love to choose NOC 4021 as it mostly contains teaching responsibilities, but I don't think I'll be able to fulfill its lead statement, which indicates "teaching at college" rather than university.

Thank in advance for the feedback!

 

[sphng]

I remember reading somewhere that the college/university distinction is not that strict for teaching lecturers, as in you should claim the NOC that matches your duties the most closely as opposed to the NOC that matches your title or workplace, the rationale being that your duties on your job reference letters are the ones that will be reviewed for proof of work experience, not your title or employer.

Hopefully, someone who already has PR in hand can weigh in because I, while in the same boat as you, am only at the post-ITA stage.

 

[vivosvoco]

I remember reading somewhere that the college/university distinction is not that strict for teaching lecturers, as in you should claim the NOC that matches your duties the most closely as opposed to the NOC that matches your title or workplace, the rationale being that your duties on your job reference letters are the ones that will be reviewed for proof of work experience, not your title or employer.

Hopefully, someone who already has PR in hand can weigh in because I, while in the same boat as you, am only at the post-ITA stage.

I think your impression is correct in the case of US system (for example, Dartmouth College is basically a university). But according to my research, the distinction between college and university in Canada is quite clear, and the two play different roles.

By the way, my offer letter has this statement: "As a condition of the offer, you must do XXX."
The XXX actually covers the "May duties," but I don't know if job condition is the same as job duties.

 

[sphng]

I think your impression is correct in the case of US system (for example, Dartmouth College is basically a university). But according to my research, the distinction between college and university in Canada is quite clear, and the two play different roles.

Yes, the distinction is there, but I meant in terms of claiming an NOC. If you are a university lecturer working at a university, but your duties align more closely with that of a college lecturer, it's safer to claim NOC 4021 because the VO uses job duties as proof, not so much your title (university lecturer) or your employer (university). At least, that's what I've come to understand from reading similar threads on this forum.

 

[vivosvoco]

Yes, the distinction is there, but I meant in terms of claiming an NOC. If you are a university lecturer working at a university, but your duties align more closely with that of a college lecturer, it's safer to claim NOC 4021 because the VO uses job duties as proof, not so much your title (university lecturer) or your employer (university). At least, that's what I've come to understand from reading similar threads on this forum.

Yeah, but in addition to main duties, we need to perform the actions described in the lead statement, although I don't know if the location is taken into account. I mean, the lead statement of NOC 4011 says "teach undergrad/grad students and conduct research at universities", while that of NOC 4021 is "teach subjects to students at vocational/community colleges and other college level schools." I personally think it matters; for example, my duties are also covered in NOC 4031, but picking that one will probably lead straight to rejection

 

[sphng]

Yeah, but in addition to main duties, we need to perform the actions described in the lead statement, although I don't know if the location is taken into account. I mean, the lead statement of NOC 4011 says "teach undergrad/grad students and conduct research at universities", while that of NOC 4021 is "teach subjects to students at vocational/community colleges and other college level schools." I personally think it matters; for example, my duties are also covered in NOC 4031, but picking that one will probably lead straight to rejection

Good point. Fingers crossed someone who can help stops by to shed some light.

 

[Sobiamirza]

Good point. Fingers crossed someone who can help stops by to shed some light.

Well i wrked as an assistant professor at a college which was affiliated to a university,my duties wer similar to those of 4011 so i went wd 4011 rather than 4021...i even spoke to few others who received their ppr on ds forum wd similar case like mine and they suggested me to go wd dat,my aor is may n i really hope i get my pr soon!

 

[vivosvoco]

Good point. Fingers crossed someone who can help stops by to shed some light.

yeah, actually as long as I can confirm it is ok for me to ignore those "may duties," I should be ok to use NOC 4011 (since this will make my percentage 67%, which should be in the safe range)

 

[sphng]

Well i wrked as an assistant professor at a college which was affiliated to a university,my duties wer similar to those of 4011 so i went wd 4011 rather than 4021...i even spoke to few others who received their ppr on ds forum wd similar case like mine and they suggested me to go wd dat,my aor is may n i really hope i get my pr soon!

Does that mean that matching up the duties is more important, or do we still need to consider the location, i.e., 4011 if our employer is a university and 4021 if a college?

 

[sphng]

yeah, actually as long as I can confirm it is ok for me to ignore those "may duties," I should be ok to use NOC 4011 (since this will make my percentage 67%, which should be in the safe range)

I agree; it makes sense. I'll keep following this thread and adding new information if I come across any.

 

[vivosvoco]

I agree; it makes sense. I'll keep following this thread and adding new information if I come across any.

Cool. Btw what is your case? You mentioned it's post-ita for you, right? Then you don't really need to worry about choosing NOC?

 

[vivosvoco]

Does that mean that matching up the duties is more important, or do we still need to consider the location, i.e., 4011 if our employer is a university and 4021 if a college?

The distinction between college and university is different in each country, and clearly NOCs are there for Canadian job market, which means you probably want to apply Canadian custom to evaluate the nature of your case.

This website shows that in Canada, colleges tend to have career-oriented courses of 1~3 years and grant diploma/certificate, while universities offer typical 4-year undergrad programs and grant degrees. This can be a rule of thumb. So, in USA, there are "colleges" that grant 4-year undergrad degrees (and even graduate degrees), such as Dartmouth College and Smith College), and thus NOC 4011 may apply in this case. Meanwhile, you have institutions like Berklee College of Music, which offers undergrad degrees; however, Berklee can be tricky because it also grants diploma. I don't know how VOs will interpret, but I would not quickly jump to the conclusion and pick NOC 4021 just because you work for a college affiliated to a university. I mean, NOC 4021 would not probably apply to faculty at Christ's College, despite it being a constituent college of the University of Cambridge

 

[Sobiamirza]

Does that mean that matching up the duties is more important, or do we still need to consider the location, i.e., 4011 if our employer is a university and 4021 if a college?

Yes exactly!ur duties should match with the noc code ur applying for...i taught undergraduate students ,helped them during their coursewrk ,also conducted laboratory sessions and a bit of research wrk too and dats why i chose 4011

 

[sphng]

Well i wrked as an assistant professor at a college which was affiliated to a university,my duties wer similar to those of 4011 so i went wd 4011 rather than 4021...i even spoke to few others who received their ppr on ds forum wd similar case like mine and they suggested me to go wd dat,my aor is may n i really hope i get my pr soon!

Congratulations on the AOR! Keep us updated on your status, and all the best!

 

[sphng]

Cool. Btw what is your case? You mentioned it's post-ita for you, right? Then you don't really need to worry about choosing NOC?

Yes, I'm on Post-ITA, but the NOC is still important because the documents I submit need to proof my claimed NOC, and at the Post-ITA stage, it's still possible to change NOCs. That's why I started a thread asking if I should switch NOCs.

Basically, if I claim NOC 4011, I have to scrape together some part-time hours (20 hours per week from August 2015 to May 2017) and full-time hours (30 hours per week from June 2017 to May 2018) to barely just get one continuous year of full-time work, and that's still hoping that my previous employer would write a reference letter that considers me employed for an uninterrupted amount of time between part- and full-time. There's also the added worry that IRCC won't consider my part-time hours because I got them during a period of full-time study, even though the job is literally the same as the one for my full-time hours.

However, if I claim NOC 4031 (Secondary School Teachers), I have 35 hours per week from August 2014 to July 2015, in addition to my 45 hours per week now at my current job that I started in September 2018. If I decline my current ITA and wait for the next one, I would have at least two years of experience, including one continuous year, to claim for NOC 4031.

The question I asked in my thread is whether I'll need to submit additional documents in order to claim NOC 4031, such as provincial licenses (or proof of eligibility) or TESL Canada certification. Do y'all happen to know or know people who know?