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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
I am seriously considering to see a lawyer to get more guidance on this issue.

I was wondering if it would be possible that you could share some cases where the applicant received a positive decision in Toronto?
As I noted in a fairly recent post above, the standard Internet search and research approach probably works as well as any to find a lawyer, other than a direct referral from a trusted source.

The cessation cases are not easy to research. Published decisions do not seem all that representative.

My sense is that the better approach is to look for lawyers specializing in refugee matters, or at least immigration, and then making sure the lawyer at least purports to be familiar with cessation issues.

As I have also noted previously, in larger urban areas like Toronto it is likely there are some aid organizations providing support for refugees, and they might be a good resource for obtaining referrals to a lawyer.
 
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Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Alternatively if you cannot find or afford a good lawyer, write down a consistent story why you travelled to Home country, dates, make sure it correlates with your passport stamps. Make sure to indicate by all means that you didnt expose yourself to danger. Explain who you were staying with. Where. How you spent your day. Key thing you weren't exposing yourself ti any danger or crowds. If country conditions changed also indicate that cause that will save you being stripped of your pr in case you lose refugee status, hence you can still apply for citizenship. Get a file, collect all evidence to ascertain all info you provide plus your itenary. Be prepared and organised. It saves a lot of time and questions. If possible carry it to your interview. Also read all about re availment law. All questions will be related to that.
 
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Sambu2019

Newbie
Feb 17, 2019
5
0
You better consider seeking legal counsel. Better safe than sorry. Talking from experience. I had the chance to do so before i applied for my citizenship. A counsel friend of mine offered to write me a cover letter explaining my home country travels. I brushed it off thinking it was not necessary because some other friends of mine had got lucky. I too had got lucky with CBSA at PoE thrice. But there i was before a citizenship officer at my citizenship test and my luck had run out. Now im seeking legal counsel. Rather you do it early than later. I'm now at their mercy literally.
Just a quick question, when you were coming back from your home country, have you ever questioned by CBSA at the PoE?

Unfortunately, I was questioned before by the CBSA at PoE regarding the reason I went back to my home country. That is why I am worried about my citizenship application might cause some trouble.
 
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Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
I was questioned twice and thats only because i had an overdue train fine which showed up in the system as warrant of arrest. Thats what drew their attention. I went through immigration fine but my declaration card required further questioning When they pulled me aside is when they had a chance to question me as to my travels. They didnt even check my passport but i told the truth because they could ask me to pull it out right there and then I explained myself and they let me go without making a report. I was lucky.
If they didnt make a report ir record in their system you are good. You would have got communication by now.
However that is irrelevant because either way if you survive it then, the citizenship application process is bound to weed you out all the same.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
I need somebody's advise. Amidst all this, I'm a cancer patient who is currently seeing doctors. Does this work in my favor at all if i mention it at a later stage in case of any further proceedings they might take. At the best case scenario i was told for the next ten yrs i need to be monitored meaning routine tests. At the worst I'm gonna need treatments(therapy) and further tests. Hiw can this fact be applied to my case
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
I need somebody's advise. Amidst all this, I'm a cancer patient who is currently seeing doctors. Does this work in my favor at all if i mention it at a later stage in case of any further proceedings they might take. At the best case scenario i was told for the next ten yrs i need to be monitored meaning routine tests. At the worst I'm gonna need treatments(therapy) and further tests. Hiw can this fact be applied to my case
With the caveat that I am NOT an expert . . .

There is, currently, NO formal H&C relief available. (That said, I do not recall if individuals whose status has been determined to have ceased are subject to Pre-Removal Risk Assessment before actual deportation. My vague recollection is NO but that is a very vague recollection. What I do know, in contrast, is that H&C relief is NOT available to avoid cessation of status.)

There have been cases in which it appears the CBSA decision-maker took H&C related factors into consideration in deciding NOT to proceed with cessation proceedings . . . but we know about these cases because the Minister appealed and WON the appeal. As I recall, that was when the Minister was a Conservative. What the current government's policies or practices are, so far as I am aware (again recognizing I am NO expert and I am not familiar with how these cases actually go except to the extent revealed in officially published decisions, which may or may not be representative), is largely unknown . . . allowing the possibility that lawyers who are actually engaged in such cases may know a lot more about actual policies and practices in the initial stages of these matters (relative to what triggers investigations or commencement of cessation proceedings).

The absence of H&C relief is one of the main reasons so many have expressed strong opposition to the current law and its application to settled-PRs.

Hopefully a lawyer can offer more and better information and insight into such situations.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Thanks for the response. After days of worry i have decided to sit back and wait for official communication from IRCC whenver it comes. I wonder what kind if investigation they are doing. I keep worrying i will see them at my door one of these days. Its daunting.
I made an appointment to see a lawyer. Consultation is $250 ‍♂ on promise to be deducted from any legal costs you incur later if they take up your case. I dont know if its worth consulting at this stage or I should wait to see if I'm up for cessation. What would CBSA or IRCC be looking for in my case.? Like what information would give them a solid ground for cessation that they do not already know?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
Thanks for the response. After days of worry i have decided to sit back and wait for official communication from IRCC whenver it comes. I wonder what kind if investigation they are doing. I keep worrying i will see them at my door one of these days. Its daunting.
I made an appointment to see a lawyer. Consultation is $250 ‍♂ on promise to be deducted from any legal costs you incur later if they take up your case. I dont know if its worth consulting at this stage or I should wait to see if I'm up for cessation. What would CBSA or IRCC be looking for in my case.? Like what information would give them a solid ground for cessation that they do not already know?
Some further observations:

So far as what we have seen, these cases appear to take a very long time (except the more egregious, obvious cases, and to some extent even these). As I recall, for example, some of the cases involved citizenship applicants who had their applications on hold for YEARS before there was a formal decision to initiate the cessation proceedings . . . and then those proceedings appear to sit in a long queue before there is a hearing.

Even in a worst case scenario, you are not likely to see notice of anything going ahead for a long while yet.

A $250 consultation fee seems very reasonable. So long as the lawyer is actually experienced in these matters. To get as much worth as possible, make a concerted effort to specifically outline just the most relevant facts and try to stay focused on particular facts and issues.

Otherwise, the individual's actual intent (which is mostly inferred from the facts, but including what the individual states about his or her intent as one fact among many others) is a significant issue. Obtaining a passport raises a presumption of reavailment (intent to obtain protection of the country the passport is obtained from), but this too is just one factor among others relevant to what the individual's actual intent was.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
I see. Thaf is of course assuming it was refered for cessation. If i give it say another week and call CIC can they tell me what course of action is being taken? Im sure CO would have indicated her next move.
Can one still apply for pr card renewal or can that effect other cessation proceedings? I don't mind the wait time at this point. It gives me time to get good lawyers and allows me to put my mind off it. I'm still hoping for an oath letter at the back of my mind. Miracles do happen.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,587
13,519
I need somebody's advise. Amidst all this, I'm a cancer patient who is currently seeing doctors. Does this work in my favor at all if i mention it at a later stage in case of any further proceedings they might take. At the best case scenario i was told for the next ten yrs i need to be monitored meaning routine tests. At the worst I'm gonna need treatments(therapy) and further tests. Hiw can this fact be applied to my case
If you were able to travel your home country for a few months it is hard to argue that you need to be in Canada for healthcare. It also sounds like you may have traveled elsewhere on your home country passport. In general what Canada expects from people who have received protected status is for them to learn the language, establish roots especially employment and contribute to the Canada. I'm curious to see what happens in your case. When you initially said you returned due to a death I assumed you had returned for a few days to a week and only once. After saying you fear for your life it is pretty brazen to return for 2 months twice and 5 weeks another time. Most Canadian citizens can not even leave Canada for 2 month due to employment and financial commitments. If you were receiving any government support and were out of the country for these extended periods of time you could also run into problems. There are many refugees who are desperate to come to Canada so I think you may find that even the Liberals have become less tolerant when it comes to people who do not follow the rules. Find it pretty insulting that you arrived in Canada and received cancer care but couldn't follow the rules. Unfortunately seems you want the best of both worlds.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Best of both worlds? To you someone returning home a total of 3 months in 8 years when you lose closest relatives is fun? Or having cancer is fun? Wow.
I also dont think you know how much i have contributed to Canada, my English language skills and how much i have intergrated in the society. You wish me the worst. Lets hope my case turns out well in the end. Im sure the person who handles it will be a lot more humane.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,587
13,519
Best of both worlds? To you someone returning home a total of 3 months in 8 years when you lose closest relatives is fun? Or having cancer is fun? Wow.
I also dont think you know how much i have contributed to Canada, my English language skills and how much i have intergrated in the society. You wish me the worst. Lets hope my case turns out well in the end. Im sure the person who handles it will be a lot more humane.
Based on your posts you returned for 4.5 months which is incredibly long for someone to travel to a country they are not supposed to enter. Your English language skills benefit you not Canada. The issue is you broke the rules but now are worried bout your access to healthcare. You needed to think of these things before returning to your home country.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Technically i broke the laws but this is not a black and white issue. I will have a chance to explain myself if it goes that far. There are many things ti consider including ones intent. I was asked what i was doing and what measures i took not to expose myself to any danger and i answered appropriately. Why are we tested on English and knowledge of Canada if it is not important that a citizen is able to communicate effectively? I do not understand About the health issue. I only raised that questioning if it will be taken into consideration when deciding my case. In other words for them to have compassion. I was in no way implying that I'm trying to take advantage. I pray and im confident that they will hear me through.
My purpose of posting here was to get knowledge and advise from those well vast with reavailment, to share experiences and potential consequences. Im not hear to be reprimanded by you. I will have my time for that if at all
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
Technically i broke the laws but . . .
Ignore troll bait. We live in an age of clever monkey mischief with a proclivity to throw feces for amusement. Ignorance tends to be as common a trait among them as malice. Ignore.

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REAVAILMENT of home country protection is NOT a crime. It does NOT constitute breaking any Canadian laws.

Conduct which might be construed or interpreted to constitute reavailment of home country protection is NOT a crime, NOT a breach of any Canadian laws, NOT a breach of any conditions. Moreover, if the PR-refugee engaged in the conduct NOT INTENDING to reavail himself or herself of home country protection, that is NOT REAVAILMENT, and is NOT grounds for cessation of protected person status.

To be clear, PRs returning to their home country is very common. It is NOT breaking the law, NOT any Canadian law anyway.

And, to be further clear, it is NOT against any Canadian law for a PR who has protected person status (a refugee) to visit the PR's home country. Or to obtain a home country passport.

And, for that matter, it is NOT against any Canadian law for a PR-refugee to actually reavail himself or herself of home country protection, even IF (a big IF) that is what the PR-refugee intended in obtaining a home country passport or traveling to the home country.

BUT the reality, in contrast, is that scores of PR-refugees have had little understanding of what the UNHCR guidelines (these come from the UN not Canadian law) prescribe about PRESUMING intent to reavail oneself of home country protection . . . and even CIC/IRCC help line agents have erroneously advised PR-refugees it is OK to obtain or renew a home country passport (in the last few years it appears the agents have been better trained and instructed about this, and are better about informing PR-refugees about the availability of an alternative special Travel Document for Canadian refugees).

Dozens of cessation cases have been WITHDRAWN or DISMISSED notwithstanding the fact that the PR-refugee obtained or renewed a home country passport AND also traveled to the home country. This appears to usually be based on a finding the PR-refugee DID NOT INTEND TO REAVAIL himself or herself of home country protection notwithstanding obtaining the passport and traveling to the home country.

There are many reports from persons with protected person status, and from family or friends of persons with protected person status, who have NOT been referred for a cessation investigation, let alone actual cessation proceedings, NOTWITHSTANDING fully disclosing to CIC/IRCC they had a home country passport and traveled to the home country. Here too it appears to be readily discerned that the PR-refugee did NOT intend to reavail himself or herself of home country protection. Thus, NO grounds for cessation of protected person status.

THE PROBLEM FOR PR-refugees WHO TRAVEL HOME, with NO INTENT to REAVAIL themselves of home country protection, is the RISK an IRCC or CBSA official will perceive otherwise, and trigger a cessation action. Best case scenario if this happens is LIFE on HOLD for a long time. And the RISK of the worst case scenario is substantial, the loss of any status to live in Canada looming ominously over the PR's head.

BECAUSE the potential consequences are so severe, and there is NO clear demarcation between who (among those who have, like most PRs, traveled to the home country, even briefly) is likely to be referred for cessation investigation or a cessation proceeding, and those who will not be, any PR-refugee who has obtained a home country passport, or traveled home, or especially who has done both (recognizing that the vast majority of those who traveled home did so using their home country passport), HAS THIS DARK AND UGLY CLOUD HANGING OVERHEAD UNTIL THEY TAKE THE OATH and actually BECOME A CITIZEN.

It is impossible to fully articulate how unjust and unfair this is.

For scores and scores of PR-refugees, just the fact that they have Canadian PR status can dramatically diminish the physical risks they face during temporary visits to the home country, even if they take no special precautions. Similarly, just the fact of NOT having to live in the home country, but being able to travel to another country and live and work elsewhere, often dramatically diminishes the risks they face during temporary stays in the home country. And for those who nonetheless still face elevated risks, for short visits they can often take special precautions, and it is worthwhile when there are compelling reasons for the visit, like visiting a severely ill family member.

For such PR-refugees, unlike any other Canadian PR, to go home to visit a dying parent RISKS losing all status to live in Canada. No matter how long and well-settled they are in Canada. No matter if they have family and children in Canada. And even if they are likely to NOT be subject to a final decision of cessation of status to live in Canada, they are at a dramatically elevated RISK of their life being put on hold, and on hold for long periods of time (years), pending the government's review of their case.

The current law is the malign policy of the Harper/Conservative government to discourage and decrease refugee settlement in Canada. Ostensibly it was adopted (in 2012) to address fraudulent refugee claims. But similar to other anti-immigrant laws and policies adopted while Harper was the PM for a Conservative majority government, ostensibly implemented to address fraud, like the conditional PR status implemented for spouse-sponsored PRs, the actual reach of these policies and laws far exceeds the scope of fraud and has a draconian impact on scores and scores of innocent immigrants. UNLIKE many of those laws and policies adopted by the Harper government, such as the conditional PR status implemented for spouse-sponsored PRs, the application of cessation with automatic termination of PR status to PR-refugees has NOT been repealed by the current Liberal government (which in contrast has repealed numerous Harper-era over-reaching and draconian laws such as the spouse-sponsored conditional PR, grounds for revoking Canadian citizenship based on the commission of certain crimes (even for citizens born in Canada), imposing a required intent to continue residing in Canada upon becoming a citizen, elimination of sponsored PR for parents or grand-parents, no credit toward citizenship requirements for time living and working in Canada before formally becoming a PR, among many others).

Leading back to this: "Technically i broke the laws but . . ." BUT YOU DIDN'T.

IN ANY EVENT YOU DID NOTHING "WRONG" GOING HOME. And, you did nothing which should cause you to lose your status in Canada if you did NOT intend to reavail yourself of home country protection. Unfortunately the current law puts you at RISK for losing status, and even if that does not happen, at an even bigger risk for having your life hanging in limbo for a long while. On behalf of my country (I am all-in on being a Canadian now), I apologize.

Moreover, the current law has such potentially catastrophic consequences it inflicts a massively unfair amount of anxiety on scores and scores of PR-refugees even though their risk is fairly low.
 
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