Indeed that seems to be the case, forgotten applications laying around and not being touch until prompted by a reminder from the applicant. There are going to be a lot of web forms in October.
Endless wait for citizenship application update
- Thread starter nick677
- Start date
WHY applicants want faster processing times (as in why-the-rush?), why they want to take the oath sooner rather than later, is no great mystery, even if there is no compelling reason or personal reason, even if citizenship will have little impact on the individual's day-to-day life. Its why shoppers in retail stores always gravitate to the shortest fastest check out line. Its why drivers invariably prefer to be in the faster lane during a highway slowdown. Its why travelers returning by car from the U.S. invariably pick the shortest line to the PIL booth.
These days an Internet site that is slow to load by just a few seconds is doomed. Few will wait. They will promptly wander to another site where they can waste time faster.
When it comes to big bureaucracies and a process which determines someone's status for a very long time, FOR LIFE, the process tends to take some time. And few exceptions (qualifying for and being given urgent processing for example), however long it takes is how it is going to take. There is plenty an applicant can do to make the process take longer (make a number of mistakes in the application; fail to show for the test; apply with a sketchy case; among many others). There is (again with a few exceptions) very little, usually NOTHING, an applicant can do to make the application get processed faster.
The question worth asking is why so many EXPECT the process to be faster than in practice it is. Some so much so they (futilely) fire off ATIP requests long, long before there is any sign of a problem, long before there is any hint something is awry.
It is impossible to determine if the web form request referenced above actually triggered action on the application or whether it is merely a coincidence given the amount of time the application had been in process. BUT even assuming the webform query triggered action, the KEY is the query was submitted AFTER a REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME had passed.
Wishing the process was faster is worth as much any fanciful child's wish.
Badgering IRCC personnel in hopes the process will go faster is worth no more than wishful thinking, but if extensive is abusive and deserves disdain.
Complaining the process should be faster is akin to complaining about the wind or winter.
In the meantime IRCC has processed some applications remarkably quickly. Unfortunately reports of those faster timelines only seems to increase the unrealistic expectations of others.
Leading to a reminder, an oft repeated but more oft ignored reminder, that most ROUTINE applications will take TWICE as LONG as the faster ones, and MANY will take three times as long.
Know someone who got their citizenship quickly. Multiply how long it took by THREE . . . and there's a fair chance yours will be done in that amount of time, although more than a few will see theirs take longer than that.
These days an Internet site that is slow to load by just a few seconds is doomed. Few will wait. They will promptly wander to another site where they can waste time faster.
When it comes to big bureaucracies and a process which determines someone's status for a very long time, FOR LIFE, the process tends to take some time. And few exceptions (qualifying for and being given urgent processing for example), however long it takes is how it is going to take. There is plenty an applicant can do to make the process take longer (make a number of mistakes in the application; fail to show for the test; apply with a sketchy case; among many others). There is (again with a few exceptions) very little, usually NOTHING, an applicant can do to make the application get processed faster.
The question worth asking is why so many EXPECT the process to be faster than in practice it is. Some so much so they (futilely) fire off ATIP requests long, long before there is any sign of a problem, long before there is any hint something is awry.
It is impossible to determine if the web form request referenced above actually triggered action on the application or whether it is merely a coincidence given the amount of time the application had been in process. BUT even assuming the webform query triggered action, the KEY is the query was submitted AFTER a REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME had passed.
Wishing the process was faster is worth as much any fanciful child's wish.
Badgering IRCC personnel in hopes the process will go faster is worth no more than wishful thinking, but if extensive is abusive and deserves disdain.
Complaining the process should be faster is akin to complaining about the wind or winter.
In the meantime IRCC has processed some applications remarkably quickly. Unfortunately reports of those faster timelines only seems to increase the unrealistic expectations of others.
Leading to a reminder, an oft repeated but more oft ignored reminder, that most ROUTINE applications will take TWICE as LONG as the faster ones, and MANY will take three times as long.
Know someone who got their citizenship quickly. Multiply how long it took by THREE . . . and there's a fair chance yours will be done in that amount of time, although more than a few will see theirs take longer than that.
This is all well and good, but do you think this is fair? Do you really believe that a variance in the order of magnitude of many months is acceptable when the perception is that no valid reason exists for such a delay?
I think I have said it in another post, but it may be worth repeating: part of the "Canadian dream" that immigrants and would-be citizens are pursuing is belonging to a country where hard work is rewarded, where it is possible to make an honest living for oneself, in essence where meritocracy exists.
The wild variations of this process, incomprehensible from the outside, provide a sense of deep unfairness, and this is driving the widespread irritation of the applicants.
You may say discussing of the fairness of a bureaucratic process is futile... but as you say there is nothing else we can do but kill time...
This is the best approach. My travel schedule this summer is very heavy, whatever happens happens, and I'll deal with it when it comes.
Beyond some of the more obvious but perhaps not the reasons affecting most applicants, such as variances in personnel allocation or scheduling logistics between different offices, I do not know the details in why there is such variance among "routinely" processed applications.
Given that IRCC and CIC before it have consistently managed to smoothly process upwards of a half MILLION immigration and citizenship applications YEAR IN and YEAR OUT (with an exception during the Harper crackdown years), unlike many others, my sense is that they are doing the job as reasonably well as a big bureaucracy for a big country with a relatively small population might, and thus that there are valid reasons, legitimate albeit bureaucratic process reasons, for how long it takes. Just because I do not know the details does not suggest I should judge the way things are done let alone assume the worst.
My guess is that the processing timeline is what it is largely due to limits on available human resources, related to limits on government funding, related to persistent pressure on government revenues.
That said, the grant of citizenship is FOR LIFE. For many that means it is for many decades to come. Waiting an extra six or eight months compared to being given the grant of a profound privilege for the next FORTY, FIFTY, or more YEARS, does NOT loom as particularly disproportionate. I tend, or at least try to be evidence-based in making judgments. My sense is that IRCC will easily well exceed granting citizenship to more than TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND immigrants this year. That tends to evidence a system that is working.
If the current Liberal government had not dramatically changed the rules, prospective applicants would have to wait an extra year, at the very minimum (and many much longer), just to be eligible to apply. In addition to implementing the longer residency requirement, for most of the years Harper was PM, the processing time for routine applications was often 18 months, and for a long while was TWO years. Things have improved. By a lot.
There is bound to be some backlog building this year. The surge in applications alone, not to mention the difficulties of a big bureaucracy implementing so many changes, is likely to lead to some delays. These things are not mysterious, even if the internal processing details are unknown to us.
@dpenbill, your post would make sense if there wasn't so much discrepancy in the process. It is extremely ambiguous and inconsistent. As someone mentioned in another post, tell me in two years exactly I will do the oath and I wouldn't mind instead of a one year average which means there's a 50% chance it will take more than one year by God knows how many additional months. The process is unfair and the unfairness is demoralizing, either everyone gets it in 4 months or everyone gets it in one year.
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Hi FloydCan,
I don't have leaving in my mind but what I do have is applying for jobs that require me to be a Canadian citizen in mind for sure.
Just the other day I came across an excellent opening in the federal government that I am fully eligible to apply for but need to be a Canadian citizen to be able to do that. That sucks as far as I am concerned because I have stayed in this country for close to 5 years now and applied for citizenship almost an year ago. Where is my fault in the entire process ?
Obviously the other factors like not being able to be a part of the election process, always having the application still pending being back at the mind, the fact that soooo many people I know who either applied alongside or after me are already citizens and many other factors are always at the back of the mind just like you said.
I would like to get this done and over with......every individual is different. I know lots of people who will just apply and not care anything about it but I am not that sort of a person.
At the same time I understand that these things are not under my control and I can only wait which I have been doing for the past allmost 10 months now.
The governent needs to do a much better job of handling immigration and people on this thread can defend it by talking about budget allocations, lack of staff, refugee claimants, etc but my answer to that is that I am an honest tax payer of the country, I have paid my taxes and I hav epaid my citizenship application fees 100 per cent in advance. The service is lacking from the government's end NOT my end. All these problems are government's problems / challenges not mine. You need to have a system in place and like another peson pointed out that Canada has been taking in immigrants for decades....yes they have but then tey should use their "decades" of experience to streamline the system which is quite broken already.
I am sure the people in the system know about these challenges and shortcomings.....it is time they act on it rather than playing with the lives of the people.
Dear Nick,
I really enjoyed reading the facts you have mentioned. I am confident, that you will get the job you have just missed applying for. Stay strong; your honesty and determination will pay off. There are much bigger problems in life we have no control on, and it passes. This phase shall pass soon for you. I am hoping, that next week will bring comfort for you.
Look after yourself!
There is mostly traffic when we head to a beautiful journey; you will arrive at your destination soon.
Hi Kuddusali,
Thank you for your note.
To answer your question.....if someone has spent 8 - 10 years in Canada and has not applied for their citizenship then how can I be held responsible for it Sir. If someone applies at the same time as me inspite of having lived in Canada for 8 - 10 years then that is their personal call right ?
Nothing about fair or unfair.
You need to apply for citisenship....it isn't automatic so I am not too sure what your point is.
I applied under the 4 out of 6 year rule inspite of the fact that when I had come to Canada the 3 year residency rule was applicable. Yet thanks to Mr.Harper all of us also got stuck with the new rule and then the rules were chaged again thankully to the 3 year residency rule. It delayed my eligibility by another year and by the time I applied I had already stayed in the country for more than 4 years so it didn't matter.
Anyways I am pretty sure the citizenship will come through pretty soon what I am disappointed with is the timelines and no matter what people think I think the government is doing a disappointing job in handling the present situation and people like us are bearing the brunt.
Dont say stupid stuff .. some people coming here to study so they are not eligible for PR immediately. Its not like they dont want to apply.
To be clear, my observations are not intended to defend IRCC or the Canadian government. They do not need defending. That's not my purpose.
Rather, my observations are aimed at helping others better understand some issues by clarifying how the system works, which in the face of so many misconceptions oft repeated in a forum like this, sometimes requires some contextual analysis including the why underlying how something works this or that way.
MAKE NO MISTAKE, client error in conjunction with a situational surge in the number of applications made, is almost certainly the main cause of the process going slow this year, perhaps lingering into next year.
In contrast, observations like the following illustrate a kind of narcissistic myopia, almost as if the government should gear its services to accommodate one individual:
But you have to wait your turn in line. So your getting in line with a perfect application is something like going into a store checkout line with three items, which will scan properly, having the exact change in hand, but the line is long and some in line in front of you have many more items and some are demanding multiple price checks, some have coupons which are not scanning properly, some have problems with their plastic working, among other issues, and more than a few are a bit like me, old and slow.
That is, the problem is applicants have to wait their turn in line behind others who like you made a PERFECT application. BUT also in line behind the many, many thousands who made mistakes, have complicated circumstances, who applied with a margin so small an extra effort to verify presence is required, among scores and scores of wrinkles and warts among those NOT-so-PERFECT as thee.
Or are you special? and deserve to have your application moved ahead of others, thousands and thousands of others, because they did not submit a PERFECT application?
To be clear, in some important respects applying for citizenship is not like going through the checkout in the grocery store . . . it is about an application to the government to give you a GRANT of STATUS FOR LIFE, an IRREVOCABLE GRANT FOR LIFE (unless there was fraud, which obviously there was not since your application is PERFECT). It is not a process for which the government can simply open a few more check out lines at will. (Notwithstanding the bureaucratic realities, however, the system is OBVIOUSLY working, as IRCC will most likely successfully process and grant over TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND citizenship applications this year.)
There are, it is fair to estimate, nearly a quarter MILLION applicants in line now. Probably near double the number in line a year ago. This much larger number is because the current government dramatically relaxed the requirements and as of last October in effect opened the gates for at least a few hundred thousand immigrants to become qualified a year or even more sooner than they would have under the prior law. Which is what the overwhelming majority of immigrants asked for and supported. By the summer of 2020 the surge should be well past and processing times will likely return to long-term norms . . . but even long-term historical norms have tended to range from approximately six months (or a bit less) for those going through the fastest, and nonetheless tending to be 8 to 12 months for MOST of those ROUTINELY processed (not counting the huge slowdown during Harper's government, when routine timelines were 18 to 24 months for a long while).
In the meantime, to be clear, among that quarter MILLION in queue now, the thousands and thousands in front of your PERFECT APPLICATION, there are many thousands whose applications fell rather short of being perfect. In another thread (this should link) I detailed just a FEW of the MANY, MANY mistakes applicants make, little and not-so-little, but each one making it more difficult and TIME-CONSUMING for a processing agent to review and verify the applicant's information. Even just an extra 15 to 30 minutes per applicant adds up when there are thousands and thousands of applicants in line.
For a more extensive list of errors made, instructions not followed, complicated circumstances, just peruse the topic titles in this forum, page after page of applicants rushing to apply and then posting "OH-NO-I-made-a-mistake" queries.
Most of us who have gone through the process, and most going through the process now, appreciate the amount of effort IRCC applies to work through client errors, to the extent possible and reasonable, even though doing so demands all of us wait a little longer. Most of us prefer IRCC to exercise discretion and tolerance, to facilitate the path to citizenship even if we do not make a PERFECT application. I certainly did not make a perfect application, though I made a concerted effort to get as close to perfect as I could; but I also had some complicating circumstances, as many, many immigrants do, and that is simply the nature of the beast, many of us simply cannot be in a position to make a PERFECT application. Sorry we slow some of you down. But recognize we are more to blame for how slow the process is than IRCC.
Then there are those who insist their opinion rules no matter how contrary to the facts it is. (to be continued . . . )
Rather, my observations are aimed at helping others better understand some issues by clarifying how the system works, which in the face of so many misconceptions oft repeated in a forum like this, sometimes requires some contextual analysis including the why underlying how something works this or that way.
MAKE NO MISTAKE, client error in conjunction with a situational surge in the number of applications made, is almost certainly the main cause of the process going slow this year, perhaps lingering into next year.
In contrast, observations like the following illustrate a kind of narcissistic myopia, almost as if the government should gear its services to accommodate one individual:
Sure, so you filed a PERFECT application and all the facts and circumstances in your life are obviously consistent with the information you provided, so a processing agent should quickly sail through assessing your case.
But you have to wait your turn in line. So your getting in line with a perfect application is something like going into a store checkout line with three items, which will scan properly, having the exact change in hand, but the line is long and some in line in front of you have many more items and some are demanding multiple price checks, some have coupons which are not scanning properly, some have problems with their plastic working, among other issues, and more than a few are a bit like me, old and slow.
That is, the problem is applicants have to wait their turn in line behind others who like you made a PERFECT application. BUT also in line behind the many, many thousands who made mistakes, have complicated circumstances, who applied with a margin so small an extra effort to verify presence is required, among scores and scores of wrinkles and warts among those NOT-so-PERFECT as thee.
Or are you special? and deserve to have your application moved ahead of others, thousands and thousands of others, because they did not submit a PERFECT application?
To be clear, in some important respects applying for citizenship is not like going through the checkout in the grocery store . . . it is about an application to the government to give you a GRANT of STATUS FOR LIFE, an IRREVOCABLE GRANT FOR LIFE (unless there was fraud, which obviously there was not since your application is PERFECT). It is not a process for which the government can simply open a few more check out lines at will. (Notwithstanding the bureaucratic realities, however, the system is OBVIOUSLY working, as IRCC will most likely successfully process and grant over TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND citizenship applications this year.)
There are, it is fair to estimate, nearly a quarter MILLION applicants in line now. Probably near double the number in line a year ago. This much larger number is because the current government dramatically relaxed the requirements and as of last October in effect opened the gates for at least a few hundred thousand immigrants to become qualified a year or even more sooner than they would have under the prior law. Which is what the overwhelming majority of immigrants asked for and supported. By the summer of 2020 the surge should be well past and processing times will likely return to long-term norms . . . but even long-term historical norms have tended to range from approximately six months (or a bit less) for those going through the fastest, and nonetheless tending to be 8 to 12 months for MOST of those ROUTINELY processed (not counting the huge slowdown during Harper's government, when routine timelines were 18 to 24 months for a long while).
In the meantime, to be clear, among that quarter MILLION in queue now, the thousands and thousands in front of your PERFECT APPLICATION, there are many thousands whose applications fell rather short of being perfect. In another thread (this should link) I detailed just a FEW of the MANY, MANY mistakes applicants make, little and not-so-little, but each one making it more difficult and TIME-CONSUMING for a processing agent to review and verify the applicant's information. Even just an extra 15 to 30 minutes per applicant adds up when there are thousands and thousands of applicants in line.
For a more extensive list of errors made, instructions not followed, complicated circumstances, just peruse the topic titles in this forum, page after page of applicants rushing to apply and then posting "OH-NO-I-made-a-mistake" queries.
Most of us who have gone through the process, and most going through the process now, appreciate the amount of effort IRCC applies to work through client errors, to the extent possible and reasonable, even though doing so demands all of us wait a little longer. Most of us prefer IRCC to exercise discretion and tolerance, to facilitate the path to citizenship even if we do not make a PERFECT application. I certainly did not make a perfect application, though I made a concerted effort to get as close to perfect as I could; but I also had some complicating circumstances, as many, many immigrants do, and that is simply the nature of the beast, many of us simply cannot be in a position to make a PERFECT application. Sorry we slow some of you down. But recognize we are more to blame for how slow the process is than IRCC.
Then there are those who insist their opinion rules no matter how contrary to the facts it is. (to be continued . . . )
. . . continued from previous post . . .
Make no mistake, however, scores of official judicial decisions clearly, unequivocally, state the law is otherwise.
And some have even ruled that the citizenship of those born in Canada is a privilege, derived from a statutory grant (which makes it a privilege, which is something Parliament can change or even take away), NOT a Charter right, not a fundamental right. Those decisions have not been exhaustively tested by higher courts, but they have not been overruled either.
As for the grant of citizenship to immigrants, however, the courts have universally, resoundingly, without any doubt or even hint of doubt, ruled the grant of citizenship is a privilege.
My impression is that many, many have more than a few misconceptions about Canadian law, the Canadian Charter of Rights, as well as immigration and citizenship law in particular. It appears many cherry pick the parts that favour what they like or prefer, and ignore a lot of important aspects of the law otherwise. Others interpose their own personal opinions with little or no regard for what the laws or rules actually are. Like insisting the grant of citizenship is a right despite the FACT, simple JUDICIAL, LEGAL FACT, that in Canadian law the grant of citizenship is a privilege.
Unfortunately such misguided approaches to the citizenship application process have encroached into many discussions affecting applicant decision-making, encroaching into discussions about how the process works, how to navigate the system, and how to navigate bumps in the road along the way. Many are led astray. So scores wallow in unnecessary non-routine processing (often blaming IRCC incompetency when it is their own error to blame). More than a few run into a negative outcome. And many more are unnecessarily driven to excessive worry along the way.
The flood of misleading information in open discussions seems to never abate. Fortunately there are many who tirelessly do the homework, engage in the critical thinking, and try to provide genuine information. The latter often stand out well enough for most to discern what is credible and reliable, compared to naked and all too often unfounded opinion spun from little more than thin air, wisps of smoke which will dissipate all too quickly if and when an applicant has a hearing with a Citizenship Officer or Judge.
All that said, not all privileges are created equal. The privilege to fish or hunt, say, or to drive a car, carries rather little weight compared to the privilege of citizenship. And while citizenship itself is a privilege, it carries with it some profound rights.
And the duration of a privilege matters. The privilege to stage an event in a public park may be granted for a few hours. Fishing licenses can be for as little as a week, and at the most are usually no more than three or four years. Drivers licenses, good for four or five years. And at the end of the term for a drivers license the individual can be required to show he or she is still qualified to have this privilege renewed. A permit to build typically allows the building to be permanent, but it is the thing built which is permanent not the entitlement to engage in building; that privilege has a limited shelf life.
But citizenship is GRANTED FOR LIFE. The Canadian government tends to approach the decision to grant this privilege, to grant a status which brings with it many profound rights, to grant it for so long as the individual's life, rather judiciously. It is not a casual process. It is possible some significant wait-time is deliberately built into the process, some time in which some contrary information might emerge. But in any event, YES, IRCC takes some time to process the decision to make this GRANT for LIFE.
So, again, citizenship is GRANTED FOR LIFE. Under current law it is NON-revocable (unless the grant itself was not really valid due to fraud). It is a very big deal. That is to say, to recognize that the grant of citizenship is a privilege is NOT to diminish its stature or value. It is simply to recognize its legal status and contextual place in the scheme of things. Including how and why the BURDEN of PRESENTING and PROVING QUALIFICATION is so squarely on the applicant.
In any event, sure, in the moment waiting six or eight months longer than someone else can seem like an enormous imposition. However, governments do not operate from the perspective of individual preference. Especially not big bureaucracies in government. Especially big bureaucracies managing a half MILLION immigration and citizenship applications YEAR IN and YEAR OUT. But eight months compared to FIFTY years or more, which is how long the grant of this particular privilege can be for many, many of those applying, even from the individual perspective, is NOT so oppressive an imposition as so many feel in the moment.
Claim citizenship is a right at will. Or whistle at the wind. To relatively similar effect.
Make no mistake, however, scores of official judicial decisions clearly, unequivocally, state the law is otherwise.
And some have even ruled that the citizenship of those born in Canada is a privilege, derived from a statutory grant (which makes it a privilege, which is something Parliament can change or even take away), NOT a Charter right, not a fundamental right. Those decisions have not been exhaustively tested by higher courts, but they have not been overruled either.
As for the grant of citizenship to immigrants, however, the courts have universally, resoundingly, without any doubt or even hint of doubt, ruled the grant of citizenship is a privilege.
My impression is that many, many have more than a few misconceptions about Canadian law, the Canadian Charter of Rights, as well as immigration and citizenship law in particular. It appears many cherry pick the parts that favour what they like or prefer, and ignore a lot of important aspects of the law otherwise. Others interpose their own personal opinions with little or no regard for what the laws or rules actually are. Like insisting the grant of citizenship is a right despite the FACT, simple JUDICIAL, LEGAL FACT, that in Canadian law the grant of citizenship is a privilege.
Unfortunately such misguided approaches to the citizenship application process have encroached into many discussions affecting applicant decision-making, encroaching into discussions about how the process works, how to navigate the system, and how to navigate bumps in the road along the way. Many are led astray. So scores wallow in unnecessary non-routine processing (often blaming IRCC incompetency when it is their own error to blame). More than a few run into a negative outcome. And many more are unnecessarily driven to excessive worry along the way.
The flood of misleading information in open discussions seems to never abate. Fortunately there are many who tirelessly do the homework, engage in the critical thinking, and try to provide genuine information. The latter often stand out well enough for most to discern what is credible and reliable, compared to naked and all too often unfounded opinion spun from little more than thin air, wisps of smoke which will dissipate all too quickly if and when an applicant has a hearing with a Citizenship Officer or Judge.
All that said, not all privileges are created equal. The privilege to fish or hunt, say, or to drive a car, carries rather little weight compared to the privilege of citizenship. And while citizenship itself is a privilege, it carries with it some profound rights.
And the duration of a privilege matters. The privilege to stage an event in a public park may be granted for a few hours. Fishing licenses can be for as little as a week, and at the most are usually no more than three or four years. Drivers licenses, good for four or five years. And at the end of the term for a drivers license the individual can be required to show he or she is still qualified to have this privilege renewed. A permit to build typically allows the building to be permanent, but it is the thing built which is permanent not the entitlement to engage in building; that privilege has a limited shelf life.
But citizenship is GRANTED FOR LIFE. The Canadian government tends to approach the decision to grant this privilege, to grant a status which brings with it many profound rights, to grant it for so long as the individual's life, rather judiciously. It is not a casual process. It is possible some significant wait-time is deliberately built into the process, some time in which some contrary information might emerge. But in any event, YES, IRCC takes some time to process the decision to make this GRANT for LIFE.
So, again, citizenship is GRANTED FOR LIFE. Under current law it is NON-revocable (unless the grant itself was not really valid due to fraud). It is a very big deal. That is to say, to recognize that the grant of citizenship is a privilege is NOT to diminish its stature or value. It is simply to recognize its legal status and contextual place in the scheme of things. Including how and why the BURDEN of PRESENTING and PROVING QUALIFICATION is so squarely on the applicant.
In any event, sure, in the moment waiting six or eight months longer than someone else can seem like an enormous imposition. However, governments do not operate from the perspective of individual preference. Especially not big bureaucracies in government. Especially big bureaucracies managing a half MILLION immigration and citizenship applications YEAR IN and YEAR OUT. But eight months compared to FIFTY years or more, which is how long the grant of this particular privilege can be for many, many of those applying, even from the individual perspective, is NOT so oppressive an imposition as so many feel in the moment.