Physical Presence Calculator

[robinhood_1984]

Good evening,

I'm after peoples views on a question I have.

My physical presence calculator is a bit more complicated than most people's by virtue of my job as a truck driver. To sum up, I have 17 pages in total and 273 different absences from Canada during the 5 year reference period, all but a small handful are due to my job.

Out of my days of eligibility of 1826 (the full five years as PR) I have 417 days of absences and 1409 of physical presence so I have a very healthy buffer.

My problem is this. While it has been easy, though extremely time consuming to go through my past five years of log books to document all border crossings accurately, plus finding old Air Canada emails with my flight dates for 3 visits back home in five years, I have a very small number of impossible to trace border crossings in my personal car as I live very close to the border and used to make an occasional hour or so trip across for shopping. We're talking 10 or fewer of these crossings, in five years, all of which will result in 0 days absence but by not declaring them on the physical presence calculator do you think I'm inviting trouble on myself and possible Quality Assurance etc?
I have ordered my travel history report from CBSA so that should be here within the next month but is it really worth worrying about? It will make no difference to my physical presence eligibility but I don't want them to think I'm being dishonest or trying to hide anything, especially after going to all the effort of documenting as many border crossings as I have so far.
I want my application to be complete and leave nothing for chance but its just one delay after another now, I've only just got my FBI PCC, something I never imagined I'd need but because all my days in America add up to a large cumulative I did and I'm all but ready to sign my forms and send them off but this is a niggling worry.

Anybody had a similar experience with a handful of undeclared border crossings, especially ones that result in 0 days absence?

Many thanks.

 

[Seym]

The canadian citizenship lasts a lifetime.
What's a mere month in comparison ?

"do you think I'm inviting trouble on myself and possible Quality Assurance etc?" has only 2 possible answers : maybe and yes.
Even if someone here tells you that it went smoothly in his similar case, it's by no means a guarantee that any other application with many missing entries will follow the same path.

Your call really, but there are odds you'll become a canadian citizen much sooner if your application is flawless, and you'll also be avoiding yourself the stress of the what ifs during the process.

If anything, if you decide to go ahead with your application now, send them a complete version of the calculator as soon as you get your AOR, by which you will probably have received the report. And bring it with you during the test.

 

[qorax]

...I have a very small number of impossible to trace border crossings in my personal car as I live very close to the border and used to make an occasional hour or so trip across for shopping. We're talking 10 or fewer of these crossings, in five years, all of which will result in 0 days absence... but is it really worth worrying about?

1. The calculator is for 'days' of absence, not for 'hrs'.
2. Minor variations in absence reporting is a non-issue, especially if it is not reflected in your passport.
3. If you insist ~ just write by hand a "note" under your signature about those hourly absences.
4. Imo, you could just overlook them and I'm more than sanguine it won't hamper your case.

Good luck!

 

[robinhood_1984]

These hand full of absences are certainly measured in hours, a few of them would be 30 mins or less but like I say, I don't want to invite any unwanted attention on myself. I feel, perhaps wrongly, that my application will be viewed differently to start with because I do have a huge number of job related absences, and while they're all 100% legit, I can't imagine its normal for them to see applications like that.

None of my unknown absences here are reflected in my passport. I did remember once having to renew my US I-94 in my car rather than in my truck so I went through all of my many stamps and cross referenced with my existing list of border crossings and did find that one stamp that didn't match so was able to add that to the physical calculator as an absence for personal reasons but there will be 5-10 more I'd say.

One thing I am wondering about is my returns to Canada by air from trips back home to England. One of them, I returned into Halifax and that one is stamped. The two where I returned in via Toronto are not. In those cases, as many will know, you use those self serve kiosk things and then there are people standing between the kiosks and the passport desks and most people get waved through, only having to hand in whatever that kiosk spits out and the passport never got stamped. I'm assuming that these arrivals will be documented in their system but I can't help if they chose not to stamp my passport. Could something like that be a problem?

 

[dpenabill]

My problem is this. While it has been easy, though extremely time consuming to go through my past five years of log books to document all border crossings accurately, plus finding old Air Canada emails with my flight dates for 3 visits back home in five years, I have a very small number of impossible to trace border crossings in my personal car as I live very close to the border and used to make an occasional hour or so trip across for shopping. We're talking 10 or fewer of these crossings, in five years, all of which will result in 0 days absence but by not declaring them on the physical presence calculator do you think I'm inviting trouble . . .

Lot of fog here. Very difficult to forecast how this goes. How this goes is likely to depend on additional factors. Among those factors is how accurately the declarations are. BUT what underlies that, and what looms large overall, is how credible IRCC perceives the applicant to be.

This could go smooth, easy as pumpkin pie with not too much allspice. After all, the quantity and spacing of dates of entry should readily illuminate the pattern, presumably a pattern which well shows a life being lived in Canada, employment driving truck back and forth across the border from a base in Canada. Particularly if the number of inaccuracies is very small compared to the number of accurately declared dates of exit and entry.

On the other hand, the quantity of border crossings makes verification difficult if not problematic. IRCC does not need to specifically verify every border crossing, but it does need to verify the travel history sufficiently to establish the actual presence requirement was met. Qualification cannot be assumed. It needs to be established. To the extent there are inaccuracies and especially omissions, these complicate things, these complicate verification of the calculation.

There was a period of time during which the CIC/IRCC information instructed applicants they could submit an approximation for some travel. I cannot find any such instruction these days and I do not recall the particulars of the instruction then. The current instructions emphasize exact dates. My sense is that the instructions about approximating invited too many applicants to be way too casual in reporting travel history, and indeed at the time more than a few forum participants were advising prospective applicants to approximate travel history rather than emphasis how important it is to make a diligent, conscientious effort to more or less exactly reconstruct actual travel dates.

In any event, I disagree with the suggestion to in effect ignore or overlook ANY additional trips. At the least, better to acknowledge there were additional DAY trips, and in addition to approximating their number provide some description of them, keeping it BRIEF, brief and direct. "Made some additional, short day trips to the U.S. for shopping, approximately xx times; no record of exact dates."

I agree that a flawless application is the best approach, BUT anyone who believes they are submitting a flawless application is probably badly mistaken.

So long as the applicant makes a positive impression as a very credible Canadian, IRCC typically accommodates human-error. This is very much dependent on making a positive impression of credibility. Acknowledging some imperfection in an account, particularly one as complicated as this one appears to be, should actually bolster the impression of credibility. (Indeed, I have seen anecdotal reports about interviews in which applicants with a large number of trips and who claimed they reported every trip accurately were challenged by the interviewer, "how can you be so sure your dates are accurate?" Which, by the way, given the number of trips in your case, and a ready explanation for how you compiled the information, you probably want to be prepared to explain when you attend the interview.)


Minutes/hours/days:

The duration of a trip outside Canada is measured relative to date of exit and date of entry; date on the calendar at the time the PR exited Canada; date on the calendar at the time the PR cleared customs upon returning to Canada. Period.

As I noted, sure, reference any approximated trips as "brief day trips." No need to further qualify or clarify the duration of those trips (if true, state "shopping" as their purpose, but again no need to elaborate).


Is there cause to worry?

As noted, the conditions are foggy. Very difficult to forecast navigation in these conditions.

That said, it appears highly likely there is a clear pattern in your travel history, a readily discerned pattern. If the next week after you return by air to Toronto, or even two weeks later, you are declaring a cross-border trip to the states pursuant to your employment, at the very least that documents you were back in Canada in order to exit Canada and then return again.

Whether there is cause to worry depends on the totality of your situation. As you describe it, my guess is you have very little reason to be concerned, to worry. It should be patently clear you are living in Canada and driving truck pursuant to employment based in Canada.

BUT of course all the details in your application, your personal history, your familial situation, and the actual pattern of travel, will tell the tale. IRCC usually figures these things out a lot, lot better than many forum participants claim. Which is to say, if you have been living in Canada these past five years, driving truck as you say, and you indeed have been physically present in Canada on 1400 or so calendar days during these five years, ODDS ARE GOOD THIS IS GOING TO GO OK, SMOOTHLY AND RELATIVELY QUICK (routinely quick).

 

[qorax]

...I feel, perhaps wrongly, that my application will be viewed differently to start with because I do have a huge number of job related absences... One of them, I returned into Halifax and that one is stamped. The two where I returned in via Toronto are not...

A. There are many truckers who apply, you're not alone sir.
B. Those self-serve kiosks weren't there earlier. As such, exit & entry weren't recorded* in anyway.
C. I didn't have a single Canadian stamp in my passports, except for the initial PR 'landing'. And since Dubai had a NFC card for immigration ~ there weren't any stamps of their's either. Dubai was the place I most visited from here.
D. I noted -all- most of my absences based on my electronic flight tickets. The rest were based on the stamps I had for other countries.

My opinion: Don't fret too much over it. You should be fine.

*The only way to cross-check would be to pull up airline records. Which imo, would be a pain even for IRCC - and usually never resorted to.

 

[robinhood_1984]

Lot of fog here. Very difficult to forecast how this goes. How this goes is likely to depend on additional factors. Among those factors is how accurately the declarations are. BUT what underlies that, and what looms large overall, is how credible IRCC perceives the applicant to be.

This could go smooth, easy as pumpkin pie with not too much allspice. After all, the quantity and spacing of dates of entry should readily illuminate the pattern, presumably a pattern which well shows a life being lived in Canada, employment driving truck back and forth across the border from a base in Canada. Particularly if the number of inaccuracies is very small compared to the number of accurately declared dates of exit and entry.

On the other hand, the quantity of border crossings makes verification difficult if not problematic. IRCC does not need to specifically verify every border crossing, but it does need to verify the travel history sufficiently to establish the actual presence requirement was met. Qualification cannot be assumed. It needs to be established. To the extent there are inaccuracies and especially omissions, these complicate things, these complicate verification of the calculation.

There was a period of time during which the CIC/IRCC information instructed applicants they could submit an approximation for some travel. I cannot find any such instruction these days and I do not recall the particulars of the instruction then. The current instructions emphasize exact dates. My sense is that the instructions about approximating invited too many applicants to be way too casual in reporting travel history, and indeed at the time more than a few forum participants were advising prospective applicants to approximate travel history rather than emphasis how important it is to make a diligent, conscientious effort to more or less exactly reconstruct actual travel dates.

In any event, I disagree with the suggestion to in effect ignore or overlook ANY additional trips. At the least, better to acknowledge there were additional DAY trips, and in addition to approximating their number provide some description of them, keeping it BRIEF, brief and direct. "Made some additional, short day trips to the U.S. for shopping, approximately xx times; no record of exact dates."

I agree that a flawless application is the best approach, BUT anyone who believes they are submitting a flawless application is probably badly mistaken.

So long as the applicant makes a positive impression as a very credible Canadian, IRCC typically accommodates human-error. This is very much dependent on making a positive impression of credibility. Acknowledging some imperfection in an account, particularly one as complicated as this one appears to be, should actually bolster the impression of credibility. (Indeed, I have seen anecdotal reports about interviews in which applicants with a large number of trips and who claimed they reported every trip accurately were challenged by the interviewer, "how can you be so sure your dates are accurate?" Which, by the way, given the number of trips in your case, and a ready explanation for how you compiled the information, you probably want to be prepared to explain when you attend the interview.)


Minutes/hours/days:

The duration of a trip outside Canada is measured relative to date of exit and date of entry; date on the calendar at the time the PR exited Canada; date on the calendar at the time the PR cleared customs upon returning to Canada. Period.

As I noted, sure, reference any approximated trips as "brief day trips." No need to further qualify or clarify the duration of those trips (if true, state "shopping" as their purpose, but again no need to elaborate).


Is there cause to worry?

As noted, the conditions are foggy. Very difficult to forecast navigation in these conditions.

That said, it appears highly likely there is a clear pattern in your travel history, a readily discerned pattern. If the next week after you return by air to Toronto, or even two weeks later, you are declaring a cross-border trip to the states pursuant to your employment, at the very least that documents you were back in Canada in order to exit Canada and then return again.

Whether there is cause to worry depends on the totality of your situation. As you describe it, my guess is you have very little reason to be concerned, to worry. It should be patently clear you are living in Canada and driving truck pursuant to employment based in Canada.

BUT of course all the details in your application, your personal history, your familial situation, and the actual pattern of travel, will tell the tale. IRCC usually figures these things out a lot, lot better than many forum participants claim. Which is to say, if you have been living in Canada these past five years, driving truck as you say, and you indeed have been physically present in Canada on 1400 or so calendar days during these five years, ODDS ARE GOOD THIS IS GOING TO GO OK, SMOOTHLY AND RELATIVELY QUICK (routinely quick).

But how does IRCC satisfy themselves if they don't bother to or want to verify all of my border crossings to prove my physical presence? Surely that's the only way that they or me can do it? If they share information with the US, which they seem to, my entry into the US should prove my exit from Canada and my entry records into Canada should prove my arrival and all days in between and including the day of departure and arrival are thus then my physical presence. All I can do is go through all my drivers log books and document it as it happened and tell them about all 270+ crossings. If that's not enough for them, what would be? My T4's would suggest that I'm in full time employment for the company that I say I am, I'm married to a local Canadian woman and have had two Canadian children with her, so how much more than that can I demonstrate a life in Canada?
My children bring me on to another question. I'm currently on parental leave (EI) in connection with the birth of our second baby in December 2017 and I'm unsure as to how to document that on my forms in as much as does my employment with regular job actually end when EI begins or should my regular job run concurrent to my EI status and show something along the lines of....

ABC Transportation 07/2013 - Present
EI-Parental Leave 12/2017 - Present

Or, should it be....

ABC Transportation 07/2013 - 11/2017 (I finished two weeks before birth)
EI Parental Leave 12/2017 - Present

 

[dpenabill]

Again, probably little or no reason to be much worried. IRCC figures things out a lot better than most suspect.

In particular, the extent to which your information completes a full picture of a life lived in Canada will help a processing agent put all the travel history information into perspective. If the pieces fit, IRCC is a lot better filling in the missing parts than many believe. (And the contrary as well, if there is something askew in the picture, IRCC tends to be a lot better identifying parts that do not fit than many appreciate.)

Take the applicant who reports just one or two trips abroad during a period of five years. IRCC sees the applicant report entering Canada on June 11, 2015, say, and report next exit as September 26, 2016. What is there is to prove that applicant was actually physically present June 12, 2015? Or any other day between then and September 26, 2016? IRCC will, generally, INFER presence in between the date of last entry and next exit. But that inference is dependent on all the other information being consistent with the applicant actually living a life in Canada during that period of time.

You have more than two hundred firm dates when the CBSA records should corroborate your entry into Canada. With a pattern that corroborates your account of a life in Canada. As long as your information is consistent, credible, and adds up, you probably have a stronger case than most applicants.

More than a few have mistakenly believed that NO travel abroad tends to be the stronger case. But the absence of any record of cross-border travel is an absence of evidence documenting a pattern of travel consistent with living in Canada. What is there to say that individual did not go to the Haskell Opera House in Stanstead, Quebec, change clothes in the bathroom, and walk to a waiting car in Derby Line, Vermont and three years later make that trip in the opposite direction? No record of leaving Canada. No record of return to Canada. (One among innumerable ways to skirt a border crossing record.)


Regarding period of leave:

How to specifically answer or complete the work history part of the application is a personal decision. Use your best judgment of what is the accurate way to fill in the form.

If you are still an employee of the ABC Transport, "to present" seems like an accurate answer to me. In the interest of full disclosure, adding a line referencing period of leave from work, that too seems accurate. It is OK to have overlapping entries in the work history.

Yes, details matter. Details are important. BUT it is how the details fit into the overall picture that really tells the tale. The way an applicant answers particular items can vary greatly. It is not necessary for every applicant to give precisely the same answer for the same situation. What matters is that you give what you consider to be an honest and accurate and complete answer.

IRCC is NOT looking for excuses to reject applicants. If IRCC perceives the applicant to be honest and reasonably accurate and complete, and that adds up to a picture of qualification for citizenship, IRCC is not going to quibble over details or immaterial technicalities.

(IRCC must quibble over material technicalities; for example, IRCC cannot grant citizenship if it concludes the applicant has failed to show actual presence for the minimum required time, and indeed must reject the application if the applicant falls just one day short. But this should have little or nothing to do with your case . . . when someone reports 1400 days presence, that case is going to stand or fall depending on the bigger picture.)

Relax. You did the heavy lifting, getting nearly all the dates of travel accurate. That was key. That is key.

But how does IRCC satisfy themselves if they don't bother to or want to verify all of my border crossings to prove my physical presence? Surely that's the only way that they or me can do it? If they share information with the US, which they seem to, my entry into the US should prove my exit from Canada and my entry records into Canada should prove my arrival and all days in between and including the day of departure and arrival are thus then my physical presence. All I can do is go through all my drivers log books and document it as it happened and tell them about all 270+ crossings. If that's not enough for them, what would be? My T4's would suggest that I'm in full time employment for the company that I say I am, I'm married to a local Canadian woman and have had two Canadian children with her, so how much more than that can I demonstrate a life in Canada?
My children bring me on to another question. I'm currently on parental leave (EI) in connection with the birth of our second baby in December 2017 and I'm unsure as to how to document that on my forms in as much as does my employment with regular job actually end when EI begins or should my regular job run concurrent to my EI status and show something along the lines of....

ABC Transportation 07/2013 - Present
EI-Parental Leave 12/2017 - Present

Or, should it be....

ABC Transportation 07/2013 - 11/2017 (I finished two weeks before birth)
EI Parental Leave 12/2017 - Present

 

[robinhood_1984]

Again, probably little or no reason to be much worried. IRCC figures things out a lot better than most suspect.

In particular, the extent to which your information completes a full picture of a life lived in Canada will help a processing agent put all the travel history information into perspective. If the pieces fit, IRCC is a lot better filling in the missing parts than many believe. (And the contrary as well, if there is something askew in the picture, IRCC tends to be a lot better identifying parts that do not fit than many appreciate.)

Take the applicant who reports just one or two trips abroad during a period of five years. IRCC sees the applicant report entering Canada on June 11, 2015, say, and report next exit as September 26, 2016. What is there is to prove that applicant was actually physically present June 12, 2015? Or any other day between then and September 26, 2016? IRCC will, generally, INFER presence in between the date of last entry and next exit. But that inference is dependent on all the other information being consistent with the applicant actually living a life in Canada during that period of time.

You have more than two hundred firm dates when the CBSA records should corroborate your entry into Canada. With a pattern that corroborates your account of a life in Canada. As long as your information is consistent, credible, and adds up, you probably have a stronger case than most applicants.

More than a few have mistakenly believed that NO travel abroad tends to be the stronger case. But the absence of any record of cross-border travel is an absence of evidence documenting a pattern of travel consistent with living in Canada. What is there to say that individual did not go to the Haskell Opera House in Stanstead, Quebec, change clothes in the bathroom, and walk to a waiting car in Derby Line, Vermont and three years later make that trip in the opposite direction? No record of leaving Canada. No record of return to Canada. (One among innumerable ways to skirt a border crossing record.)


Regarding period of leave:

How to specifically answer or complete the work history part of the application is a personal decision. Use your best judgment of what is the accurate way to fill in the form.

If you are still an employee of the ABC Transport, "to present" seems like an accurate answer to me. In the interest of full disclosure, adding a line referencing period of leave from work, that too seems accurate. It is OK to have overlapping entries in the work history.

Yes, details matter. Details are important. BUT it is how the details fit into the overall picture that really tells the tale. The way an applicant answers particular items can vary greatly. It is not necessary for every applicant to give precisely the same answer for the same situation. What matters is that you give what you consider to be an honest and accurate and complete answer.

IRCC is NOT looking for excuses to reject applicants. If IRCC perceives the applicant to be honest and reasonably accurate and complete, and that adds up to a picture of qualification for citizenship, IRCC is not going to quibble over details or immaterial technicalities.

(IRCC must quibble over material technicalities; for example, IRCC cannot grant citizenship if it concludes the applicant has failed to show actual presence for the minimum required time, and indeed must reject the application if the applicant falls just one day short. But this should have little or nothing to do with your case . . . when someone reports 1400 days presence, that case is going to stand or fall depending on the bigger picture.)

Relax. You did the heavy lifting, getting nearly all the dates of travel accurate. That was key. That is key.

Many thanks for your very comprehensive responses. Its greatly appreciated.

Do you think I should bother waiting for the travel history report so I can fill in those last few blanks? I'm still waiting on my FBI PCC to arrive in the mail, that should be here in the next week or two so I might either have the info from CBSA by then or be close to receiving it, depending on how long they take.
My passport is full of stamps, all are either US or Canadian so they should be easy for them to check out. I have to get a US I-94 every 3 months so there's a ton of them in my passport, every one of which matches a departure date in my physical presence calculator. As said above in another post, two out of three of my arrivals back in to Canada from the UK were not stamped in Toronto, but I did scan my PR card into the kiosk so I would imagine my arrival is atleast in their records.

 

[Rigly68]

Many thanks for your very comprehensive responses. Its greatly appreciated.

Do you think I should bother waiting for the travel history report so I can fill in those last few blanks? I'm still waiting on my FBI PCC to arrive in the mail, that should be here in the next week or two so I might either have the info from CBSA by then or be close to receiving it, depending on how long they take.
My passport is full of stamps, all are either US or Canadian so they should be easy for them to check out. I have to get a US I-94 every 3 months so there's a ton of them in my passport, every one of which matches a departure date in my physical presence calculator. As said above in another post, two out of three of my arrivals back in to Canada from the UK were not stamped in Toronto, but I did scan my PR card into the kiosk so I would imagine my arrival is atleast in their records.

I think for your peace of mind wait for the report to fill in the blanks. As you already said you are waiting for PCP anyway so I think it would benefit you if you wait for the report as you wont be worrying about those blank dates after submitting you application.

 

[robinhood_1984]

I think for your peace of mind wait for the report to fill in the blanks. As you already said you are waiting for PCP anyway so I think it would benefit you if you wait for the report as you wont be worrying about those blank dates after submitting you application.

Thanks, I'm pretty sure that that's what I'll do.

 

[muhammad092]

A. There are many truckers who apply, you're not alone sir.
B. Those self-serve kiosks weren't there earlier. As such, exit & entry weren't recorded* in anyway.
C. I didn't have a single Canadian stamp in my passports, except for the initial PR 'landing'. And since Dubai had a NFC card for immigration ~ there weren't any stamps of their's either. Dubai was the place I most visited from here.
D. I noted -all- most of my absences based on my electronic flight tickets. The rest were based on the stamps I had for other countries.

My opinion: Don't fret too much over it. You should be fine.

*The only way to cross-check would be to pull up airline records. Which imo, would be a pain even for IRCC - and usually never resorted to.

hi i have a question. do i have to list all the absences or travels before becoming pr? i came to canada only as a pr

 

[Seym]

hi i have a question. do i have to list all the absences or travels before becoming pr? i came to canada only as a pr

You need to cover the whole 5 years.
List one absence, your previous coutry of residence.
If you visited other countries when you were based there, list them in the explanation box not as specific entries.

Similar logic to a travel, while you already live in Canada, where you visited more than one country at once.
Your destination should be the first country you went to, and others will be listed as explanation.

 

[muhammad092]

You need to cover the whole 5 years.
List one absence, your previous coutry of residence.
If you visited other countries when you were based there, list them in the explanation box not as specific entries.

Similar logic to a travel, while you already live in Canada, where you visited more than one country at once.
Your destination should be the first country you went to, and others will be listed as explanation.

I didnt get it because the physical presence calculators says ' list all absences from canada. And then it ask specifically the date you left canada and the date you return canada. i become pr in mid april 2014. i didnt include any trips before that because that was the first time i came to canada. now i am getting confused.

 

[Seym]

I didnt get it because the physical presence calculators says ' list all absences from canada. And then it ask specifically the date you left canada and the date you return canada. i become pr in mid april 2014. i didnt include any trips before that because that was the first time i came to canada. now i am getting confused.

The calculator counts the days you were in Canada and then tells you if you're eligible to apply.
If you don't list the absence from Canada before your PR landing, since those days count as half days up to one year, you may end up with hundreds of days over your actual physical presence.

Not ideal...