Parents Sponsorship - Stop Immigration Lottery

[nayr69sg]

Ok great then here is my suggestion to fix the website - abandon the idea of stopping the lottery completely. The lottery is a fair system that controls the intake process and gives equal access no matter your location in Canada. The old system was broken and hopefully we never go back to it. We should be thankful there is a parents program at all, as believe me the vast majority of Canadians would not care less and many would actually applaud if the entire parents program was simply cancelled forever.

So assuming the lottery is here to stay, then instead focus on ways to make it better and fairer. So ideas like:
- reducing ineligible entries, by doing more checks at lottery stage or charging non-refundable fees to enter
- giving preference or extra chances in lottery to those that qualified and applied previously but were not selected
- giving preference to those with younger parents who may actually contribute to Canada's workforce
- etc etc

I have a suggestion to tweak the lottery system.

Have a question that asks - have you applied before in the interest to sponsor lottery? If yes, state how many times.

For each previous unsuccessful lottery that one has taken part in, you get one "EXTRA" entry for the current lottery.

So your chances of winning in the lottery is higher as the years go by. It is the same as say buying 10 Lotto MAX entries versus just one.

If someone has entered the lottery and failed for the past 10 years, on his 11th year he should have 11 entries to the lottery.

What do you guys think?

Sorry Rob I just saw your entry. Guess you have the same idea as me.

 

[nayr69sg]

I think priority should also be given to those who have been living in Canada longer.

It wont be perfect but basically to "prove" residency submit ALL your NOAs that you have. That would give a pretty good idea how long you have been in canada for. For each NOA the applicant gets an extra lottery entry.

So for someone who has been living in Canada for 20 years, they should have priority to bringing their parents over compared to the guy who has been here for 3 years.

 

[nayr69sg]

Your arguments are too personal. I know you are asking for constructive feedback and not arm chair criticism.

However I think it would be better to strategize modifying the lottery rather than asking for it to be thrown out altogether.

For example giving more chances to repeat applicants, and applicants who have been in Canada for a longer time and have thus contributed (hopefully) more to the country.

I agree with you that there should be SOME merit based consideration rather than a TOTAL random selection process.

I mean seriously guys (rest of you) if Canada is worried about parents being a burden to the system, then why shouldn't you guys support a system where the more well to do have a higher chance of bringing their parents over to Canada?

There are many things not covered (or not covered sufficiently) by the universal health care system eg physiotherapy, massage, counseling, home care, outpatient medication etc.

Those who have the funds can pay for private care and other aides to help with the care of their parents. Whereas those who have unstable financial footing would likely have to see the social worker and plead for help through their MPs and MLAs.

So why wouldn't you support a more merit based system?

To answer this question with simply " let's do away with the whole parent sponsorship system then" does not help the discussion seriously.

 

[Rob_TO]

I mean seriously guys (rest of you) if Canada is worried about parents being a burden to the system, then why shouldn't you guys support a system where the more well to do have a higher chance of bringing their parents over to Canada?

There are many things not covered (or not covered sufficiently) by the universal health care system eg physiotherapy, massage, counseling, home care, outpatient medication etc.

Those who have the funds can pay for private care and other aides to help with the care of their parents. Whereas those who have unstable financial footing would likely have to see the social worker and plead for help through their MPs and MLAs.

The only cost item worth mentioning is healthcare. Plain and simple. All those other items are supplemental ones that Canadian tax payers will not foot the bill for regardless.

So it doesn't matter if a sponsor barely qualifies for LICO, or makes millions of dollars a year, their parents once here will still cost the exact same to taxpayers for basic healthcare services, and add to the same wait times.

So really once someone meets the basic LICO amount, that is all that matters and there is zero incentive to offer richer Canadians a better shot.

 

[nayr69sg]

The only cost item worth mentioning is healthcare. Plain and simple. All those other items are supplemental ones that Canadian tax payers will not foot the bill for regardless.

So it doesn't matter if a sponsor barely qualifies for LICO, or makes millions of dollars a year, their parents once here will still cost the exact same to taxpayers for basic healthcare services, and add to the same wait times.

So really once someone meets the basic LICO amount, that is all that matters and there is zero incentive to offer richer Canadians a better shot.

I disagree. You should ask people who work in healthcare about this.

The healthcare system openly says that they will pay for this and not pay for that. But when push comes to shove and someone would benefit from having something the system shouldn't pay for but the patient cannot afford, there are other programs that can help. This varies from province to province. So tax payers are still on the hook.

I mean seriously do you think health care workers and the healthcare system is so cruel that if you should have something they would tell you sorry you cannot have this although it would help you A GREAT DEAL because you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT period?

No. Usually we get some social worker involved. They can link up with some other programs. Doctors can also apply for special funding for certain treatments etc.

Seriously, go ask some people who do work in healthcare about this.

 

[Rob_TO]

I disagree. You should ask people who work in healthcare about this.

The healthcare system openly says that they will pay for this and not pay for that. But when push comes to shove and someone would benefit from having something the system shouldn't pay for but the patient cannot afford, there are other programs that can help. This varies from province to province. So tax payers are still on the hook.

I mean seriously do you think health care workers and the healthcare system is so cruel that if you should have something they would tell you sorry you cannot have this although it would help you A GREAT DEAL because you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT period?

No. Usually we get some social worker involved. They can link up with some other programs. Doctors can also apply for special funding for certain treatments etc.

Seriously, go ask some people who do work in healthcare about this.

Even so, the bulk of the costs we are talking about are still the fundamental costs healthcare will pay 100% for everything. So things like routine doctor visits, check ups, all diagnostic tests (blood work, ultrasounds, xrays, etc), emergency room visits, hospital stays, surgical procedures, etc etc.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned is not really a concern compared to the basic healthcare costs funded by tax payers in all cases.

Plus even if sponsors are rich, there is no guarantee they will fund these extra costs if as you say the option exists that the parents can still get it covered by some other social service program.

 

[nayr69sg]

Plus even if sponsors are rich, there is no guarantee they will fund these extra costs if as you say the option exists that the parents can still get it covered by some other social service program.

You only qualify for the programs if you have financial difficulties.

I guess those people out there who have elderly parents who require various home aids and programs will know what I am talking about. Not everything is covered by the healthcare system (openly). They will tell you this and that isn't covered. And you pay for it yourself. Which is also a burden to the family (which LICO does not take into account). So what of those people who cannot afford the stuff that the system doesn't cover?

We let them rot in one corner? No. We help them. Using tax payer dollars. Above what the average Canadian is entitled to.

So it is naive to think that it is so simple that the cost to the country to sponsor a elderly couple from a barely struggling to make ends meet family is the same as the one that is well to do.

 

[Rob_TO]

You only qualify for the programs if you have financial difficulties.

I guess those people out there who have elderly parents who require various home aids and programs will know what I am talking about. Not everything is covered by the healthcare system (openly). They will tell you this and that isn't covered. And you pay for it yourself. Which is also a burden to the family (which LICO does not take into account). So what of those people who cannot afford the stuff that the system doesn't cover?

We let them rot in one corner? No. We help them. Using tax payer dollars. Above what the average Canadian is entitled to.

So it is naive to think that it is so simple that the cost to the country to sponsor a elderly couple from a barely struggling to make ends meet family is the same as the one that is well to do.

Again, the costs for all that is a drop in the bucket compared to the basic average healthcare costs that is always paid 100%.

 

[nayr69sg]

Again, the costs for all that is a drop in the bucket compared to the basic average healthcare costs that is always paid 100%.

It is STILL an additional cost. And $100 per parent per year X 10k is still $1 million a year. And its probably much more than that.

Anyway my point is that if you are going to argue on the costs being a factor, then financial well being should be the way to go.

There is the super visa as you said. No healthcare. The rich have no qualms about that. But we are talking the top 0.01%. The fees charged for foreigners is MUCH MUCH higher than what the same doctor charges to the Provincial healthcare system for the same work done. (That's another unfair bit if you ask me which no one talks about).

 

[Rob_TO]

It is STILL an additional cost. And $100 per parent per year X 10k is still $1 million a year. And its probably much more than that.

Anyway my point is that if you are going to argue on the costs being a factor, then financial well being should be the way to go.

There is the super visa as you said. No healthcare. The rich have no qualms about that. But we are talking the top 0.01%. The fees charged for foreigners is MUCH MUCH higher than what the same doctor charges to the Provincial healthcare system for the same work done. (That's another unfair bit if you ask me which no one talks about).

Again it's a drop in the bucket compared to general healthcare costs. Yes it's some cost, but IMO not worth it to consider prioritizing apps by sponsor income.

Cost being charged is not just to foreigners, it would also be the same to Canadian citizens/PRs that happen to be in the waiting period for healthcare. Doctors will always gouge you if they know a private insurer is footing the bill. And actually if you tell them you're paying out of pocket they will sometimes bill you less than what healthcare would pay them.

 

[OP_POP]

Guys, richer people can get Super Visa to bring their parents and pay for the insurance & medical coverage. Plain and simple!

Also, if this program gives more priority to richer people, we will have the same immigrants suing the government for discrimination.

We just had one of them today, refugees suing to get child support, Canada was nice enough to bring them to a safe place and now being sued. People get entitled after getting what they want. I think the system is overly generous already. The lottery can be modified to give more priority to people who have applied before, and i feel it will be a great change.

 

[nayr69sg]

Guys, richer people can get Super Visa to bring their parents and pay for the insurance & medical coverage. Plain and simple!

Also, if this program gives more priority to richer people, we will have the same immigrants suing the government for discrimination.

We just had one of them today, refugees suing to get child support, Canada was nice enough to bring them to a safe place and now being sued. People get entitled after getting what they want. I think the system is overly generous already. The lottery can be modified to give more priority to people who have applied before, and i feel it will be a great change.

This is where you guys have to be clear what your line of argument is.

If the question is about cost to the system etc then clearly those who can afford to pay some of the cost should have priority in sponsoring.

The trouble is every time we talk about riches people being able to pay then you start talking as if richer people should NOT be allowed to sponsor. Whereas the poorer people should.

Then when the poorer people ask to have priority you start talking about cost again.

Make up your mind.

Anyway there is no perfect system. We can agree to disagree.

Stop using cost as an issue because that's clearly not the only issue.

Canadians want to look like they are nice generous people who take in refugees and sponsor needy but don't want to pay for it.

Get real guys.

 

[nayr69sg]

Further to the discussion on how some feel that Parents do not contribute to the economy, I rather disagree.

If you have wealthy parents coming they spend money in Canada. They buy houses. They buy cars. Furniture. Appliances. And on going services. Remember that these are funds they bring into the country from foreign soil. So pure influx to Canada.

Also there is estate duty in Canada. Upon the passing of rich parents their estate is taxed. Again money for Canada.

The trouble is you guys keep picturing poor penniless dependant old folks who come in and consume resources. This is of course the case if the parents are poor.

Now I know some of yok will start going on about how unfair that is favoring the rich and what not. Which I totally agree.

But let's stop using the whole cost thing as a convenient rebuttal to a truly socialist humanitarian drive called patent sponsorship which Canadians will have to fund in order to look good and feel good about themselves.

 

[OP_POP]

This is where you guys have to be clear what your line of argument is.

If the question is about cost to the system etc then clearly those who can afford to pay some of the cost should have priority in sponsoring.

The trouble is every time we talk about riches people being able to pay then you start talking as if richer people should NOT be allowed to sponsor. Whereas the poorer people should.

Then when the poorer people ask to have priority you start talking about cost again.

Make up your mind.

Anyway there is no perfect system. We can agree to disagree.

Stop using cost as an issue because that's clearly not the only issue.

Canadians want to look like they are nice generous people who take in refugees and sponsor needy but don't want to pay for it.

Get real guys.

If rich parents want to come and stay with their children in Canada, and want to pay for everything themselves, they are more than welcome to get supervisa! Why do they need PR? What advantage do they get over the 10 year visa?

And hell no, Canada is a country, it needs to run the country and needs the right people here. It can help as much as it can (with getting refugees, PGP program, etc.) but at the end of the day, it needs to get the people here that benefit the economy.

For giving PR to PGP, that is the capacity that Canada has, based on the cost to social welfare / benefit / healthcare etc. Sure they can come up with better system to pick the 10K winners, but it is not fair to ask Canada to do more.

 

[nayr69sg]

If rich parents want to come and stay with their children in Canada, and want to pay for everything themselves, they are more than welcome to get supervisa! Why do they need PR? What advantage do they get over the 10 year visa?

So you are saying that only poor parents should be given PR because they cannot afford healthcare?

Then you are discriminating against rich people?

As I have elaborated stop using the cost as an argument. Because if it was it is clear that Canada would be better off giving PR to parents who have high net worth.

And conversely Canada is worse off giving PR to parents who have low net worth.

But the whole issue isn't about cost. It is for humanitarian reasons.

That is what I am asking for. Stop talking about cost as the issue. It isn't.