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Permanent Residency Status

doneen

Member
Apr 7, 2015
10
0
I am currently living and working in Ireland with my Canadian wife and our two kids.
I worked/lived in Canada from 2008 and to 2012 and obtained permanent residency while I was in Canada. I got my PR in June 2010. My now wife and I moved to Ireland at the end of 2012. She has now become a resident of Ireland. My Canadian residency card has expired. As a result of this I do not have a valid card to travel back to Canada.I cannot travel as a visitor as I cannot get an ETA as I am still considered a Canadian resident.
Can someone please advise if my days abroad with a Canadian citizen counts as time towards my residency? Will I be able to renew my residency? This is not something I want to give up as my wife and I are currently looking into moving back to Canada.
From my research I feel one of my options is to apply for a PRTD to travel to Canada and then apply to renew my PR..But I could be wrong maybe I’m not entitle to renew my residency?
Thanks,
Shane.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,168
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
I am currently living and working in Ireland with my Canadian wife and our two kids.
I worked/lived in Canada from 2008 and to 2012 and obtained permanent residency while I was in Canada. I got my PR in June 2010. My now wife and I moved to Ireland at the end of 2012. She has now become a resident of Ireland. My Canadian residency card has expired. As a result of this I do not have a valid card to travel back to Canada.I cannot travel as a visitor as I cannot get an ETA as I am still considered a Canadian resident.
Can someone please advise if my days abroad with a Canadian citizen counts as time towards my residency? Will I be able to renew my residency? This is not something I want to give up as my wife and I are currently looking into moving back to Canada.
From my research I feel one of my options is to apply for a PRTD to travel to Canada and then apply to renew my PR..But I could be wrong maybe I’m not entitle to renew my residency?
Thanks,
Shane.
Strictly speaking, it all depends on why you went to Ireland. Did your wife accompany you because you were relocating or, did you accompany her because she was offered a job there. This may sound irrelevant but recent cases have indicated that it can make all the difference.
 

PMM

VIP Member
Jun 30, 2005
25,494
1,950
HI

I am currently living and working in Ireland with my Canadian wife and our two kids.
I worked/lived in Canada from 2008 and to 2012 and obtained permanent residency while I was in Canada. I got my PR in June 2010. My now wife and I moved to Ireland at the end of 2012. She has now become a resident of Ireland. My Canadian residency card has expired. As a result of this I do not have a valid card to travel back to Canada.I cannot travel as a visitor as I cannot get an ETA as I am still considered a Canadian resident.
Can someone please advise if my days abroad with a Canadian citizen counts as time towards my residency? Will I be able to renew my residency? This is not something I want to give up as my wife and I are currently looking into moving back to Canada.
From my research I feel one of my options is to apply for a PRTD to travel to Canada and then apply to renew my PR..But I could be wrong maybe I’m not entitle to renew my residency?
Thanks,
Shane.

1. As you have been residing with Citizen spouse abroad, your RO has been preserved.
2. Apply for a PRTD from London, before you return to Canada, and then re-apply for your PR card.
 

doneen

Member
Apr 7, 2015
10
0
Hi,
Thanks for responses. I left Canada in October 2012 as I got offered a good job with very good career potential.

Thanks,
Shane.

Strictly speaking, it all depends on why you went to Ireland. Did your wife accompany you because you were relocating or, did you accompany her because she was offered a job there. This may sound irrelevant but recent cases have indicated that it can make all the difference.
 

doneen

Member
Apr 7, 2015
10
0
HI

Hi,
This is what I was hoping to be hear to be honest. You don’t see any issues with being out of Canada since 2012.
One o


1. As you have been residing with Citizen spouse abroad, your RO has been preserved.
2. Apply for a PRTD from London, before you return to Canada, and then re-apply for your PR card.
HI




1. As you have been residing with Citizen spouse abroad, your RO has been preserved.
2. Apply for a PRTD from London, before you return to Canada, and then re-apply for your PR card.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,168
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Many thanks interesting reading. In my case I did spend over 720 days in Canada are landing as a resident. Very interesting,as you said in your first post, how the reason for leaving can make a difference..
Based on your experience what would you recommend I do..?
Thanks again,
Shane.
As I'm sure you know, any days before the five year period that a PRTD or PR card application would examine are irrelevant. So, as of today, any days before Feb 1st 2013 are of no value. Do you have any residency days since then?
 

doneen

Member
Apr 7, 2015
10
0
As I'm sure you know, any days before the five year period that a PRTD or PR card application would examine are irrelevant. So, as of today, any days before Feb 1st 2013 are of no value. Do you have any residency days since then?
Hi,
No residency since then only visit over and back to Canada.
Was assuming days abroad with my wife were counted up until now.. but as case study highlights and reason for leaving can have an affect on this..
Should I apply for a PRTD?

Thanks for all the info so far..

Regards,
Shane.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
57,626
14,165
I would get the PRTD and apply for PR renewal when in Canada. Your wife can sponsor you again if it becomes an issue. The spirit of the law is being applied unevenly. Was your wife working in Ireland as well? If both spouses are working the optics are better and they may not investigate so much.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,486
3,253

I am posting the following to counter unnecessary concern about qualifying for credit toward the PR Residency Obligation based on accompanying a citizen spouse abroad. This credit is routine. It is common. Basically, if a PR and the PR's Canadian citizen spouse have been living in Canada and they move abroad, to live together abroad (are "ordinarily residing" together), THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM.

Overall: A PR living abroad with the PR's Canadian citizen spouse is allowed credit toward the PR Residency Obligation for those days. That's the rule. That is how it is applied in all but unusual (probably rare) exceptions.

There is NO reason to be nervous about qualifying for the credit so long as the couple is actually cohabiting.

The exceptions to this are not random. They are predictable. They are very few in number. They all involve egregious, blatant reasons for making an exception.


Below I reference situations in which who-accompanied-whom is questioned; but again, it is very unusual for this question to even arise. The IRPA regulation itself (Regulation 61(4) IRPA Regulations) states:
". . . a permanent resident is accompanying outside Canada a Canadian citizen or another permanent resident — who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent — on each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen or the other permanent resident."

That is, each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen counts as a day accompanying the citizen spouse.

That is the rule, the law. No need to question who accompanied whom. No need to ask why the couple is abroad.

See http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-12.html#h-31 for the Regulation

Note that the applicable Operation Manual, ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status," Section 7.5, similarly states:
"In the case of a permanent resident outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen, it is not necessary to determine who is accompanying whom, nor is it necessary to determine for what purpose. In other words, under A28(2)(a)(ii) and R61(4), as long as a permanent resident is accompanying a Canadian citizen, the intent and purpose of their absences are not relevant as the residency obligation is met."


But yes, as the already cited Kreidy v Canada case (see http://canlii.ca/t/hphj6 2017 CanLII 87454) illustrates, it is POSSIBLE (but very unusual) that in some situations this regulation can be ignored (Kreidy's lawyer might be blamed for failing to cite the Regulation, but this case otherwise evidences the full gamut of reasons for making an exception, from overt misrepresentations to blatantly scheming to circumvent the purpose for granting PR status, including never actually settling in Canada at all) and the decision turn on the who-accompanied-whom question.

This Regulation is also ignored or overlooked in the Khaira v Canada case (http://canlii.ca/t/gksqq 2014 CanLII 95529) but in this case even if the PR was given credit for the time he was accompanied by his Canadian citizen spouse abroad, he was still way, way short of meeting the PR RO. This individual also never actually settled in Canada for an appreciable period of time (less than four months following landing).

In contrast, the Regulation is addressed in the Parikh v Canada case (http://canlii.ca/t/gn6sx 2015 CanLII 108889), but here too there are blatant, egregious reasons for making an exception, and this IAD explicitly cites and in a round-about way applies a so-called "mischief rule." Moreover, the PR in this case, and her spouse, were asking for credit for time they allegedly lived together illegally (without legal status to reside) in the U.S. This IAD focused on concluding it could not be said the couple were "ordinarily residing" together.

There are others among the exceptions. NOT many, not at all. All involving rather blatant reasons for making an exception. Credibility looms large in most. Otherwise, the lack of virtually any significant ties to Canada tends to loom large. In the Khaira case, for example, it appears the couple had been living together abroad for a decade and a half before he even became a PR, and after becoming a PR he spent very little time in Canada, and basically their lives were long settled and centralized in Lebanon.

But this leads to recognizing the significance of the PR's overall history, including history prior to the five years that count in the PR RO calculation.

I DISAGREE with the view that history of time in Canada prior to the five years that count in the PR RO calculation is irrelevant, of no value. (Something can be and often is relevant for reasons apart from what counts in a calculation of days for a residency requirement.) On the contrary, the fact you were settled in Canada for years, even if many years ago, is an important factor. That demonstrates a real tie to Canada. And another key factor which totally separates your situation from the EXCEPTIONS is that you were living together in Canada before moving abroad to live together abroad. The fact that you are the one who got the job that motivated the move is NOT a problem, not at all.

So your life in Canada from 2008 to 2012 matters. It is relevant. It has weight. That time does NOT count toward the PR RO compliance calculation itself, BUT the PR's entire immigration history is almost always taken into consideration if there is any question at all about qualifying for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse. It is a big deal if the PR never really settled in Canada (the majority of the exception-cases involve a PR who has never actually settled in Canada . . . not all cases are like this, but most).

It is important to keep good records. It is important to document cohabiting. These days IRCC has been issuing multiple-entry PR Travel Documents to PRs in this situation. Not always. Hard to say why some are and some are not. It is usually not a good idea to push obtaining a new PR card unless and until actually returning to live in Canada.

Your situation is very common. IRCC generally has NO PROBLEM with PRs in this situation. As long as the PR is not scamming the Canadian immigration system.

There should be NO reason to worry about those exceptions, the odd cases in which IRCC does have a problem, always for good and obvious reasons.
 
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doneen

Member
Apr 7, 2015
10
0
I am posting the following to counter unnecessary concern about qualifying for credit toward the PR Residency Obligation based on accompanying a citizen spouse abroad. This credit is routine. It is common. Basically, if a PR and the PR's Canadian citizen spouse have been living in Canada and they move abroad, to live together abroad (are "ordinarily residing" together), THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM.

Overall: A PR living abroad with the PR's Canadian citizen spouse is allowed credit toward the PR Residency Obligation for those days. That's the rule. That is how it is applied in all but unusual (probably rare) exceptions.

There is NO reason to be nervous about qualifying for the credit so long as the couple is actually cohabiting.

The exceptions to this are not random. They are predictable. They are very few in number. They all involve egregious, blatant reasons for making an exception.


Below I reference situations in which who-accompanied-whom is questioned; but again, it is very unusual for this question to even arise. The IRPA regulation itself (Regulation 61(4) IRPA Regulations) states:
". . . a permanent resident is accompanying outside Canada a Canadian citizen or another permanent resident — who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent — on each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen or the other permanent resident."

That is, each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen counts as a day accompanying the citizen spouse.

That is the rule, the law. No need to question who accompanied whom. No need to ask why the couple is abroad.

See http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-12.html#h-31 for the Regulation

Note that the applicable Operation Manual, ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status," Section 7.5, similarly states:
"In the case of a permanent resident outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen, it is not necessary to determine who is accompanying whom, nor is it necessary to determine for what purpose. In other words, under A28(2)(a)(ii) and R61(4), as long as a permanent resident is accompanying a Canadian citizen, the intent and purpose of their absences are not relevant as the residency obligation is met."


But yes, as the already cited Kreidy v Canada case (see http://canlii.ca/t/hphj6 2017 CanLII 87454) illustrates, it is POSSIBLE (but very unusual) that in some situations this regulation can be ignored (Kreidy's lawyer might be blamed for failing to cite the Regulation, but this case otherwise evidences the full gamut of reasons for making an exception, from overt misrepresentations to blatantly scheming to circumvent the purpose for granting PR status, including never actually settling in Canada at all) and the decision turn on the who-accompanied-whom question.

This Regulation is also ignored or overlooked in the Khaira v Canada case (http://canlii.ca/t/gksqq 2014 CanLII 95529) but in this case even if the PR was given credit for the time he was accompanied by his Canadian citizen spouse abroad, he was still way, way short of meeting the PR RO. This individual also never actually settled in Canada for an appreciable period of time (less than four months following landing).

In contrast, the Regulation is addressed in the Parikh v Canada case (http://canlii.ca/t/gn6sx 2015 CanLII 108889), but here too there are blatant, egregious reasons for making an exception, and this IAD explicitly cites and in a round-about way applies a so-called "mischief rule." Moreover, the PR in this case, and her spouse, were asking for credit for time they allegedly lived together illegally (without legal status to reside) in the U.S. This IAD focused on concluding it could not be said the couple were "ordinarily residing" together.

There are others among the exceptions. NOT many, not at all. All involving rather blatant reasons for making an exception. Credibility looms large in most. Otherwise, the lack of virtually any significant ties to Canada tends to loom large. In the Khaira case, for example, it appears the couple had been living together abroad for a decade and a half before he even became a PR, and after becoming a PR he spent very little time in Canada, and basically their lives were long settled and centralized in Lebanon.

But this leads to recognizing the significance of the PR's overall history, including history prior to the five years that count in the PR RO calculation.

I DISAGREE with the view that history of time in Canada prior to the five years that count in the PR RO calculation is irrelevant, of no value. (Something can be and often is relevant for reasons apart from what counts in a calculation of days for a residency requirement.) On the contrary, the fact you were settled in Canada for years, even if many years ago, is an important factor. That demonstrates a real tie to Canada. And another key factor which totally separates your situation from the EXCEPTIONS is that you were living together in Canada before moving abroad to live together abroad. The fact that you are the one who got the job that motivated the move is NOT a problem, not at all.

So your life in Canada from 2008 to 2012 matters. It is relevant. It has weight. That time does NOT count toward the PR RO compliance calculation itself, BUT the PR's entire immigration history is almost always taken into consideration if there is any question at all about qualifying for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse. It is a big deal if the PR never really settled in Canada (the majority of the exception-cases involve a PR who has never actually settled in Canada . . . not all cases are like this, but most).

It is important to keep good records. It is important to document cohabiting. These days IRCC has been issuing multiple-entry PR Travel Documents to PRs in this situation. Not always. Hard to say why some are and some are not. It is usually not a good idea to push obtaining a new PR card unless and until actually returning to live in Canada.

Your situation is very common. IRCC generally has NO PROBLEM with PRs in this situation. As long as the PR is not scamming the Canadian immigration system.

There should be NO reason to worry about those exceptions, the odd cases in which IRCC does have a problem, always for good and obvious reasons.
Hi
Many thanks for such a detailed and excellent response. Greatly appreciated. I’ll apply for a multiple entry PRTD in London.
Regards,
Shane.