Question for dpenabill

[wxyz123]

Dpenabill, I am aware of your expertise on immigration matters. Can you please answer this query ? A friend of mine wants to know

How police system works in Canada. If some one is charged with criminal offence in Toronto, ON and finger printed, do police pass this information to RCMP. If yes how long it normally takes. Does this also go on police data base in Canada and USA. Further after RCMP receives this information how long they take to inform IRCC ?

Many thanks

 

[dpenabill]

Dpenabill, I am aware of your expertise on immigration matters. Can you please answer this query ? A friend of mine wants to know

How police system works in Canada. If some one is charged with criminal offence in Toronto, ON and finger printed, do police pass this information to RCMP. If yes how long it normally takes. Does this also go on police data base in Canada and USA. Further after RCMP receives this information how long they take to inform IRCC ?

Many thanks

Actually I am NOT an expert.

Moreover, it does not matter much how long it takes for IRCC to learn of an arrest or criminal charge brought against a citizenship applicant. The applicant has an affirmative duty to inform IRCC of the charge forthwith, and a failure to do so is very likely to have negative consequences, and potentially very severe consequences depending on how long and what happens in the meantime. In any event, IRCC is likely to learn of the charges at the next step in the process; last I was aware (noting that this kind of information is now confidential so we do not get updated information about how these things are done currently), IRCC policy is to do a GCMS check on the occasion of every action taken, and the GCMS check will usually (perhaps not always, but usually) uncover a hit for any new criminal arrest or charges (in the U.S. or in Canada).

I do not know much about the detailed workings of the Canadian criminal justice system, but depending on the seriousness of the offence my impression is that for indictable offences the upload of charges to the name-record databases will happen almost immediately (within hours) upon the issuance of a warrant, upon an arrest and booking, or upon the accused's appearance on formal charges before the courts, which ever occurs first.

If the individual is a PR and does not have an active action pending (such as no PR card application pending), I am not aware of any requirement the PR has to give notice to IRCC of the charges, and as long as there is no reason (such as no applications made for a new PR card, to sponsor a family member, to become a citizen) for IRCC to conduct a GCMS check, my GUESS (and it is just a GUESS) is that IRCC does not know of the charges UNLESS law enforcement involved in the case affirmatively take steps to notify IRCC.

I do not know what the odds are, or how often it happens, but any time a PR is crossing the border to return to Canada, CBSA can do a FOSS check which would reveal criminal charges (again, for the U.S. and for Canada).

If the charges are serious, and particularly if there is a chance that a jail term or prison term might be imposed, a PR should at least consult with an immigration lawyer IN ADDITION to being represented by a competent lawyer experienced in doing criminal defense work. And do so sooner rather than later.

 

[wxyz123]

Thank you Sir/Madam..Much appreciated...

 

[wxyz123]

Actually I am NOT an expert.

Moreover, it does not matter much how long it takes for IRCC to learn of an arrest or criminal charge brought against a citizenship applicant. The applicant has an affirmative duty to inform IRCC of the charge forthwith, and a failure to do so is very likely to have negative consequences, and potentially very severe consequences depending on how long and what happens in the meantime. In any event, IRCC is likely to learn of the charges at the next step in the process; last I was aware (noting that this kind of information is now confidential so we do not get updated information about how these things are done currently), IRCC policy is to do a GCMS check on the occasion of every action taken, and the GCMS check will usually (perhaps not always, but usually) uncover a hit for any new criminal arrest or charges (in the U.S. or in Canada).

I do not know much about the detailed workings of the Canadian criminal justice system, but depending on the seriousness of the offence my impression is that for indictable offences the upload of charges to the name-record databases will happen almost immediately (within hours) upon the issuance of a warrant, upon an arrest and booking, or upon the accused's appearance on formal charges before the courts, which ever occurs first.

If the individual is a PR and does not have an active action pending (such as no PR card application pending), I am not aware of any requirement the PR has to give notice to IRCC of the charges, and as long as there is no reason (such as no applications made for a new PR card, to sponsor a family member, to become a citizen) for IRCC to conduct a GCMS check, my GUESS (and it is just a GUESS) is that IRCC does not know of the charges UNLESS law enforcement involved in the case affirmatively take steps to notify IRCC.

I do not know what the odds are, or how often it happens, but any time a PR is crossing the border to return to Canada, CBSA can do a FOSS check which would reveal criminal charges (again, for the U.S. and for Canada).

If the charges are serious, and particularly if there is a chance that a jail term or prison term might be imposed, a PR should at least consult with an immigration lawyer IN ADDITION to being represented by a competent lawyer experienced in doing criminal defense work. And do so sooner rather than later.

Do you think if some one is PR and charged with crime, he better stay as PR for rest of his life to be safe and not apply for citizenship..

 

[dpenabill]

Do you think if some one is PR and charged with crime, he better stay as PR for rest of his life to be safe and not apply for citizenship..

I doubt it. But I really am NO expert. How a PR should handle the situation depends a great deal on a lot of particular circumstances in the individual's life. AND, most of all, on what the charges are and on what the PR ends up being convicted of.

Again, if there is a risk of actual jail time, let alone prison, the PR needs a lawyer's help. Probably two lawyers, one for the criminal case, and an immigration lawyer. No need to hire an immigration lawyer to represent him, not yet anyway, but to pay for a consultation to learn about how his specific charges can affect his status.

If the charges result in a sentence for six months or more, he might NOT have a choice to stay a PR. I have not kept current on precisely what degree of severity will make a PR inadmissible, and then subject to losing PR status, but the threshold is way lower than it used to be before the Harper government changed the law.

If the charges do not result in the loss of PR status, but he is convicted of an indictable offence, that just makes him prohibited from a grant of citizenship for four years. So he could not apply for citizenship for at least four years from the date of the conviction. After that he would be eligible for citizenship so long as he meets the other requirements. Those include being present in Canada at least three of the preceding five years, but NOT COUNTING any days which he spent in jail or on probation.

The actual charges involved are the biggest factor which will determine:

-- if IRCC will proceed with an inadmissibility proceeding and terminate PR status

-- if he will actually be deported if IRCC proceeds with an inadmissibility proceeding (removal orders can be stayed for long periods of time and for rehabilitated offenders with no further criminal charges, I believe it is possible to eventually get back to good status . . . lawyer will know better . . . the seriousness of the crime can have a big impact on how this goes)

If the charges are not so serious he loses PR status, then whether the charges are a summary offence or an indictable offence makes a big difference. A summary offence conviction does not result in a prohibition (but if on probation, there is a prohibition during that time, and that time will not count toward meeting presence requirement, but is counted the same as being absent). A conviction for an indictable offence results in being prohibited for four years.

Again, if the charges are serious, GET A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER and consult with an IMMIGRATION LAWYER.

 

[wxyz123]

I doubt it. But I really am NO expert. How a PR should handle the situation depends a great deal on a lot of particular circumstances in the individual's life. AND, most of all, on what the charges are and on what the PR ends up being convicted of.

Again, if there is a risk of actual jail time, let alone prison, the PR needs a lawyer's help. Probably two lawyers, one for the criminal case, and an immigration lawyer. No need to hire an immigration lawyer to represent him, not yet anyway, but to pay for a consultation to learn about how his specific charges can affect his status.

If the charges result in a sentence for six months or more, he might NOT have a choice to stay a PR. I have not kept current on precisely what degree of severity will make a PR inadmissible, and then subject to losing PR status, but the threshold is way lower than it used to be before the Harper government changed the law.

If the charges do not result in the loss of PR status, but he is convicted of an indictable offence, that just makes him prohibited from a grant of citizenship for four years. So he could not apply for citizenship for at least four years from the date of the conviction. After that he would be eligible for citizenship so long as he meets the other requirements. Those include being present in Canada at least three of the preceding five years, but NOT COUNTING any days which he spent in jail or on probation.

The actual charges involved are the biggest factor which will determine:

-- if IRCC will proceed with an inadmissibility proceeding and terminate PR status

-- if he will actually be deported if IRCC proceeds with an inadmissibility proceeding (removal orders can be stayed for long periods of time and for rehabilitated offenders with no further criminal charges, I believe it is possible to eventually get back to good status . . . lawyer will know better . . . the seriousness of the crime can have a big impact on how this goes)

If the charges are not so serious he loses PR status, then whether the charges are a summary offence or an indictable offence makes a big difference. A summary offence conviction does not result in a prohibition (but if on probation, there is a prohibition during that time, and that time will not count toward meeting presence requirement, but is counted the same as being absent). A conviction for an indictable offence results in being prohibited for four years.

Again, if the charges are serious, GET A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER and consult with an IMMIGRATION LAWYER.

Thank you again. I was googling and I learned that while sentencing judges are aware that accused is PR and their decision can affect his immigration status so they try not to press harsh sentences..is that true ?

also if PR is convicted, CBSA holds a hearing(IRB board) to decide on his immigration status ? is that right

 

[PMM]

Hi

I doubt it. But I really am NO expert. How a PR should handle the situation depends a great deal on a lot of particular circumstances in the individual's life. AND, most of all, on what the charges are and on what the PR ends up being convicted of.

Again, if there is a risk of actual jail time, let alone prison, the PR needs a lawyer's help. Probably two lawyers, one for the criminal case, and an immigration lawyer. No need to hire an immigration lawyer to represent him, not yet anyway, but to pay for a consultation to learn about how his specific charges can affect his status.

If the charges result in a sentence for six months or more, he might NOT have a choice to stay a PR. I have not kept current on precisely what degree of severity will make a PR inadmissible, and then subject to losing PR status, but the threshold is way lower than it used to be before the Harper government changed the law.

If the charges do not result in the loss of PR status, but he is convicted of an indictable offence, that just makes him prohibited from a grant of citizenship for four years. So he could not apply for citizenship for at least four years from the date of the conviction. After that he would be eligible for citizenship so long as he meets the other requirements. Those include being present in Canada at least three of the preceding five years, but NOT COUNTING any days which he spent in jail or on probation.

The actual charges involved are the biggest factor which will determine:

-- if IRCC will proceed with an inadmissibility proceeding and terminate PR status

-- if he will actually be deported if IRCC proceeds with an inadmissibility proceeding (removal orders can be stayed for long periods of time and for rehabilitated offenders with no further criminal charges, I believe it is possible to eventually get back to good status . . . lawyer will know better . . . the seriousness of the crime can have a big impact on how this goes)

If the charges are not so serious he loses PR status, then whether the charges are a summary offence or an indictable offence makes a big difference. A summary offence conviction does not result in a prohibition (but if on probation, there is a prohibition during that time, and that time will not count toward meeting presence requirement, but is counted the same as being absent). A conviction for an indictable offence results in being prohibited for four years.

Again, if the charges are serious, GET A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER and consult with an IMMIGRATION LAWYER.

1. As a note, if the person receives a sentence of 6 months or is convicted on indictment that could result in 10 years imprisonment and is reported to IRCC, and is reported under 44 there is no longer any appeal rights, so the person can no longer receive a stay of deportation.

 

[wxyz123]

Hi




1. As a note, if the person receives a sentence of 6 months or is convicted on indictment that could result in 10 years imprisonment and is reported to IRCC, and is reported under 44 there is no longer any appeal rights, so the person can no longer receive a stay of deportation.

Thank you for your comment. Is it reported to IRCC or CBSA. I saw on websites, he / she is reported to CBSA.

or

ARE CBSA and IRCC same or different departments ?

Thanks

 

[cal1]

hi depanbill i am new to forum i am following your posts i have question for you .i applied for citizenship in august 2017 and then in october i got fingerprints which i did then in first week of november i got test request which i passed in decemeber my local office is edmonton .actually i was arrested in march 2017 on charged of harassment,intimidation crown proceed summarily that time later on charged are withdrawn in lieu of peace bond which will end on march 2018.then know i got letter from cic they need court documents for those charges what happens,how crown proceed,outcome of charges .i think those charges still showing on my record which already withdrawn thats why they need documents i already apply in the court for documents which can take 6-8 weeks to get.so what you think i should do or my application will be rejected .i already sent them peace bond copy but they need court documents too please help it will be appreciated

 

[PMM]

Hi

Thank you for your comment. Is it reported to IRCC or CBSA. I saw on websites, he / she is reported to CBSA.

or

ARE CBSA and IRCC same or different departments ?

Thanks

1. Two different departments, but with overlapping responsibilities. Both can submit reports under 44.

 

[Ghost13]

hi depanbill i am new to forum i am following your posts i have question for you .i applied for citizenship in august 2017 and then in october i got fingerprints which i did then in first week of november i got test request which i passed in decemeber my local office is edmonton .actually i was arrested in march 2017 on charged of harassment,intimidation crown proceed summarily that time later on charged are withdrawn in lieu of peace bond which will end on march 2018.then know i got letter from cic they need court documents for those charges what happens,how crown proceed,outcome of charges .i think those charges still showing on my record which already withdrawn thats why they need documents i already apply in the court for documents which can take 6-8 weeks to get.so what you think i should do or my application will be rejected .i already sent them peace bond copy but they need court documents too please help it will be appreciated

You should be fine as long as all of the charges has been withdrawn. Even if the peace bond is still in effect, you still can submit the court documents and your application shall be processed normally without any issues. Just make sure to provide them with the court documents, and a brief explanation that you've been charged before, and these charges has been withdrawn by the crown, and no conviction has occurred.

 

[dpenabill]

hi depanbill i am new to forum i am following your posts i have question for you .i applied for citizenship in august 2017 and then in october i got fingerprints which i did then in first week of november i got test request which i passed in decemeber my local office is edmonton .actually i was arrested in march 2017 on charged of harassment,intimidation crown proceed summarily that time later on charged are withdrawn in lieu of peace bond which will end on march 2018.then know i got letter from cic they need court documents for those charges what happens,how crown proceed,outcome of charges .i think those charges still showing on my record which already withdrawn thats why they need documents i already apply in the court for documents which can take 6-8 weeks to get.so what you think i should do or my application will be rejected .i already sent them peace bond copy but they need court documents too please help it will be appreciated

I have responded to this in another thread. Here is what I posted:

These kinds of questions cannot be reliably answered in a forum like this. There are many, many details which can have an impact.

The terms of a peace bond, for example, can vary widely. And they can make a big difference.

If, for example (just one example among various possibilities), the terms of the disposition are conditional on completing the period covered by the peace bond, there is a chance you technically still have the charges pending, and that would be a prohibition which could mean the application is denied . . . meaning you would have to wait until after March to re-apply. BUT I CANNOT SAY that is the situation. It would be better to go to a lawyer. No need to hire a lawyer. You can go for a consultation. Probably cost around $300 to $500. Or just submit the paperwork and see how it goes. If you cannot submit the paperwork within the time the request specified, send a response to IRCC stating you have made a request for the paperwork and you will submit it as soon as you get it. (Note: while I do NOT know, it seems odd to me that it would take so long to get these records . . . I would think a person could go to the court and get them that day or within a few days.)

Obviously, this is something which should have been discussed with a lawyer before applying. And, hopefully you appropriately and truthfully disclosed the charges in the application form. (If not, that could be a bigger problem than the charges themselves, and is a situation in which you should LAWYER-UP sooner rather than later.)

You should be fine as long as all of the charges has been withdrawn. Even if the peace bond is still in effect, you still can submit the court documents and your application shall be processed normally without any issues. Just make sure to provide them with the court documents, and a brief explanation that you've been charged before, and these charges has been withdrawn by the crown, and no conviction has occurred.

That "as long as" part can be very complicated and tricky.

IF there is a FINAL disposition discharging (dismissing) the charges in the court record, it should be OK . . .

. . . but even in this regard, it is OK ONLY if the applicant appropriately and truthfully disclosed the charges in the application.

BUT whether there is a FINAL disposition disposing of all the charges is a huge IF. And, frankly, probably not likely. A conditional discharge is more likely. Which makes things a lot more complicated.

These situations simply cannot be reliably assessed in a venue like this forum. The specific details loom huge. The applicant needs someone experienced in examining court records like this and discerning precisely what they mean.

 

[wxyz123]

I have responded to this in another thread. Here is what I posted:

These kinds of questions cannot be reliably answered in a forum like this. There are many, many details which can have an impact.

The terms of a peace bond, for example, can vary widely. And they can make a big difference.

If, for example (just one example among various possibilities), the terms of the disposition are conditional on completing the period covered by the peace bond, there is a chance you technically still have the charges pending, and that would be a prohibition which could mean the application is denied . . . meaning you would have to wait until after March to re-apply. BUT I CANNOT SAY that is the situation. It would be better to go to a lawyer. No need to hire a lawyer. You can go for a consultation. Probably cost around $300 to $500. Or just submit the paperwork and see how it goes. If you cannot submit the paperwork within the time the request specified, send a response to IRCC stating you have made a request for the paperwork and you will submit it as soon as you get it. (Note: while I do NOT know, it seems odd to me that it would take so long to get these records . . . I would think a person could go to the court and get them that day or within a few days.)

Obviously, this is something which should have been discussed with a lawyer before applying. And, hopefully you appropriately and truthfully disclosed the charges in the application form. (If not, that could be a bigger problem than the charges themselves, and is a situation in which you should LAWYER-UP sooner rather than later.)



That "as long as" part can be very complicated and tricky.

IF there is a FINAL disposition discharging (dismissing) the charges in the court record, it should be OK . . .

. . . but even in this regard, it is OK ONLY if the applicant appropriately and truthfully disclosed the charges in the application.

BUT whether there is a FINAL disposition disposing of all the charges is a huge IF. And, frankly, probably not likely. A conditional discharge is more likely. Which makes things a lot more complicated.

These situations simply cannot be reliably assessed in a venue like this forum. The specific details loom huge. The applicant needs someone experienced in examining court records like this and discerning precisely what they mean.

I have a question for you and PMM. Do you know if there is an audit on citizenship applications ever, I mean if visa officer has made a mistake granting citizenship to some one who is not eligible or by mistake denying citizenship to some one who qualifies for it..?

 

[wxyz123]

Hi




1. Two different departments, but with overlapping responsibilities. Both can submit reports under 44.

I have a question for you and PMM. Do you know if there is an audit on citizenship applications ever, I mean if visa officer has made a mistake granting citizenship to some one who is not eligible or by mistake denying citizenship to some one who qualifies for it..?

 

[dpenabill]

I have a question for you and PMM. Do you know if there is an audit on citizenship applications ever, I mean if visa officer has made a mistake granting citizenship to some one who is not eligible or by mistake denying citizenship to some one who qualifies for it..?

As far as I am aware, the most recent Auditor General Report following an audit of the grant citizenship program is found here:

http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201602_02_e_41246.html#hd2a

This report was more or less focused on detecting and preventing fraud in the citizenship program, and indeed is titled:
"Report 2—Detecting and Preventing Fraud in the Citizenship Program"

It dates from the spring of 2016, so is nearly two years old now. It appears, however, that the recent dramatic surge in issuing CIT 0205 PPQ-QAE and related requests to citizenship applicants is probably at least related to recommendations made in that report if not a direct response.
Otherwise, over the years one sees various references and reports to auditing procedures and Quality Control or Quality Assurance measures aimed at reviewing the grant citizenship application procedures and process.

In terms of reviewing individual cases, specific grants of citizenship, on the verification of qualifications side of the equation, the routine processing of a grant citizenship application goes through multiple specific steps which are prescribed in the File Requirements Checklist (or a comparable replacement if the FRC has been replaced recently) involving multiple individual processing agents along the path, culminating (in most cases) in a decision by a Citizenship Officer approving and granting citizenship. To what extent, if any, there is any cross-checking done by additional or reviewing processing agents to verify grants of citizenship have not been erroneously approved, I am not sure. My impression is that the current system, which among other things requires a GCMS clearance check for every action on the application, probably gets it right a very high percentage of the time . . . except, perhaps, fraud related error, which was the primary subject of the 2016 audit and probably the primary focus of the current PPQ-QAE so many are now getting.

On the potential error of denying citizenship side of the equation, while denied applicants do not have a right to appeal, the wrongfully rejected applicant can request a hearing with a Citizenship Officer, all presence cases are also reviewed and decided by a Citizenship Judge, and in either case the rejected applicant can seek leave for judicial review from the Federal Court.

And of course there is the current surge in issuing PPQ-QAE CIT 0205 which is purportedly an effort to conduct a Quality Assurance Exercise to determine if the current citizenship application process is adequate, to identify qualified applicants and grant them citizenship, and to identify ineligible applicants, and to otherwise enforce immigration and citizenship laws.