Police check for USA.

[robinhood_1984]

Good afternoon all,

I was in the final stages of preparing my Canadian citizenship application, thinking all was in line when my heart sank at reading what I believe to be the requirement for me to obtain an FBI check. I'm a cross border truck driver and each of my trips across account for between 0-10 days as per the physical presence calculator and I had read the 183 days in another country to mean single trips totaling or exceeding that amount etc.
It turns out that in the 4 years before my intended application sign date, I'd have a total of 286 full days in the USA in my truck spread out over hundreds of different trips.
Assuming that I do need to obtain this check, my question is, how do I date my application so it matches with the FBI check? Will my sign date of 26/01/2018 be accepted if the FBI check takes months to come back, and if it won't be accepted, I'll be totting up new days in the US after my original intended sign date given that I cross the border every week as part of my job and some of these trips may not then be covered by the FBI check etc.
IE, my sign date is 26/01/2018 but I don't receive the FBI check back until lets say 01/05/2018. Can I still use 26/01/2018 as my sign date, or do I have to move it along nearer or indeed to 01/05/2018? I think I read somewhere about 90 days being the limit that a sign date can be used from the date signed until the date received?

Many thanks

 

[dpenabill]

Assuming that I do need to obtain this check, my question is, how do I date my application so it matches with the FBI check?

As long as the FBI police clearance has been issued more recently than six months prior to the date you apply it should suffice. It will almost certainly suffice to get the application past the completeness check.

After that, once the application is in process, IRCC could require an updated clearance anyway, anytime, BUT is not likely to do so. (IRCC itself will periodically run a name-record criminal-history check for the U.S. anyway . . . right up to just before the oath is taken. So basically IRCC can, and does, check U.S. criminal history records for itself. But it appears you still need to submit the FBI clearance upfront, with the application.)

 

[robinhood_1984]

Would it be a ridiculous idea to submit my citizenship application this week as planned without the FBI check and apply for it ASAP and send it in once I have got the AOR from CIC? Chances are that I'd have the FBI check back before they even look at my file in Sydney.​

Terrible idea? This is almost what would of happened anyway had I not had one last look at the instructions today and noticed this time the examples of multiple trips to the US adding up to a cumulative total rather than each small trip being counted separately and not added up.

 

[ChippyBoy]

Would it be a ridiculous idea to submit my citizenship application this week as planned without the FBI check and apply for it ASAP and send it in once I have got the AOR from CIC? Chances are that I'd have the FBI check back before they even look at my file in Sydney.​

Terrible idea? This is almost what would of happened anyway had I not had one last look at the instructions today and noticed this time the examples of multiple trips to the US adding up to a cumulative total rather than each small trip being counted separately and not added up.

Getting the FBI pcc takes about thirteen (13) weeks (mine took from mid-July 2017 until mid-October 2017). You'd be wisest to send in your Canadian citizenship application complete with the original (i.e., not a photocopy) of your FBI pcc complete with the watermarked coverpage, but you could try attaching an explanatory letter with your ostensibly incomplete application clearly stating that you've applied for an FBI pcc and that you'll send it along asap. I don't recommend sending it along later based on my bad experience pre-PR in 2013 when CIC misplaced the FBI pcc which I'd sent them separately, and they then wrote giving me 30 days to provide them with a new one.

 

[robinhood_1984]

I'm assuming that I can get my finger prints done down at my local RCMP station here in Canada?
I see on the FBI form that it asks for the last four digits of your social security number. I'm assuming that that just applies to American citizens and residents?

 

[user88]

I applied without my FBI report and included a letter explaining why. I did not have any issues and I know a few other people that did the same. Luckily for me my report was issued one week after I submitted the application.

All I did was send them the update via webforms.

 

[spyfy]

Would it be a ridiculous idea to submit my citizenship application this week as planned without the FBI check and apply for it ASAP and send it in once I have got the AOR from CIC? Chances are that I'd have the FBI check back before they even look at my file in Sydney.​

Terrible idea? This is almost what would of happened anyway had I not had one last look at the instructions today and noticed this time the examples of multiple trips to the US adding up to a cumulative total rather than each small trip being counted separately and not added up.

There have been reports of forum users where the "sending without PCC and submit later" approach worked (see above), but there have also been reports where it didn't work. Technically, an application without PCC is incomplete, but as the example of user88 shows, sometimes you are lucky and get a nice guy at the office.

Regarding the pre- and post-dating: Yes, there is a 90 day rule. When the application reaches the IRCC office, it must not be signed more than 90 days ago. I do not see any point in your "date acrobatics". Of course, by nature, a PCC that you had to apply for weeks in advance will not cover the most recent period. That is normal and won't raise any issues.

 

[dpenabill]

Would it be a ridiculous idea to submit my citizenship application this week as planned without the FBI check and apply for it ASAP and send it in once I have got the AOR from CIC? Chances are that I'd have the FBI check back before they even look at my file in Sydney.​

Terrible idea? This is almost what would of happened anyway had I not had one last look at the instructions today and noticed this time the examples of multiple trips to the US adding up to a cumulative total rather than each small trip being counted separately and not added up.

I concur in @spyfy's caution about date acrobatics.

But I am also assuming you continue to reside in Canada and are adding more days to the days-present-total. While a larger margin over the minimum is not necessary, so long as there is a good margin depending on circumstances, a larger margin never hurts and can offer more insurance. For someone who has traveled abroad (as in to the U.S.) as frequently as it appears you have, a very substantial margin over the minimum would be a good idea, one measured in months not weeks.

I also concur in the caution expressed by @ChippyBoy.

In regards to the latter and potential pitfalls, remember the citizenship application is processed by one of Canada's biggest bureaucracies. Bureaucracies are what bureaucracies do, meaning among other things they do NOT tend to be nimble. Applications involving piecemeal submissions and update submissions almost certainly have a higher risk for things-that-go-bump-in-the-dark, ranging from lost parts to getting stuck in an inordinately lengthy queue before a next-step action is taken.

I do not know how IRCC is approaching responses to 10.b other than a "yes" check (as in yes, more than 183 days total were spent in a country in the preceding four years) with a police certificate submitted. The instructions allow for the applicant to give a reason why a clearance could not be obtained. But IRCC is well aware of the process pursuant to which applicants can obtain a U.S. clearance.

But submitting an application that is almost certain to clear the completeness check is a minimum.

The objective that makes the most sense, for most applicants, is to submit an application which is one most likely to proceed through the process without any extra steps, actions, or handling. Every additional action on a file ups the chances of something going awry at that step, including getting stuck in a queue which does not move much for an extra-ordinary long time, including something getting lost, not to mention increasing the chance the additional action leads the processing agent to have an additional question or concern, potentially triggering non-routine processing beyond just that action.

How you approach this is your choice. Your judgment. But submitting a complete package that will most likely clear each necessary step in the process in due course is the applicant's best shot at a smooth and relatively quick trip to the day he or she takes the oath. That is, to submit an application which avoids any side trips, which will not involve any additional action to request a clearance (and then put a bring-forward date, which can take who knows how long to put the application actually in someone's hand to take the next step), to file or check an updated submission, or to request fingerprints even (no guarantee, but the odds are good the fingerprints used for the FBI clearance will suffice even if there was some other reason for IRCC to want fingerprints).

Rushing the application often means actually getting to an oath date later, sometimes quite a lot later.

 

[ChippyBoy]

I'm assuming that I can get my finger prints done down at my local RCMP station here in Canada?
I see on the FBI form that it asks for the last four digits of your social security number. I'm assuming that that just applies to American citizens and residents?

Better to drop by a U.S. police station to pay the approx. $10- in order to have someone take your prints who's experienced at taking them up to the high standards required by the FBI. First time I had them taken at a local U.S. police station near where I'd been living in the U.S. the FBI returned my pcc request asking for better quality prints. The local beat officer had assured me that he knew what he was doing when he'd taken my prints, so he was both humiliated and extra especially careful the second time around, and no charge. The second set of prints was good enough and my pcc came back in the mail a few months later.
And yes, that's your U.S. Social Security Number that they're asking for on the FBI form, NOT your Canadian SIN. Good luck.

 

[tmahajan]

Hi All ,

I applied for my FBI PCC in Aug 2017 and received the same dated 5th Dec 2017. In the meantime I had to leave for my Home Country(India) on 24th Nov 2017 and came back to US on 16th Dec 2017 . Is my FBI PCC invalid now ?

 

[ChippyBoy]

Hi All ,

I applied for my FBI PCC in Aug 2017 and received the same dated 5th Dec 2017. In the meantime I had to leave for my Home Country(India) on 24th Nov 2017 and came back to US on 16th Dec 2017 . Is my FBI PCC invalid now ?

No, you're still fine. As far as IRCC's concerned, your pcc should be dated no farther back than six months before you submit it to them, I believe.

 

[robinhood_1984]

Better to drop by a U.S. police station to pay the approx. $10- in order to have someone take your prints who's experienced at taking them up to the high standards required by the FBI. First time I had them taken at a local U.S. police station near where I'd been living in the U.S. the FBI returned my pcc request asking for better quality prints. The local beat officer had assured me that he knew what he was doing when he'd taken my prints, so he was both humiliated and extra especially careful the second time around, and no charge. The second set of prints was good enough and my pcc came back in the mail a few months later.
And yes, that's your U.S. Social Security Number that they're asking for on the FBI form, NOT your Canadian SIN. Good luck.

Going to the US isn't an issue as I live only about 10km from the border but the town on the other side is only a little place and I'm not convinced that the police station there will be any more up to the job than yours was the first time around.

I see there is a Commissionaires office about an hour down the road from me who specialise in this sort of thing, perhaps that would be a better option to reduce the chances of the FBI sending it back?
Having to wait 3 months or more now to send in my application is a real soul destroyer when you're all revved up getting things done and about to send off but I don't want to bodge things up either. I can live with delaying 3 months if I get the FBI check but to wait 3 months, only for them to send it back due to bad prints would be a bitter pill to swallow. Especially as the whole thing seems entirely pointless from my point of view as I'm in and out of the US 1 to 3 times a week, doing little short trips and if I had even the slightest sniff of a criminal record, they'd never let me over the border to start with. My hundreds and hundreds of crossings, and I94 visa waivers I get in my British passport every 3 months are proof on their own that I have no record.
I know other truck drivers similar to myself who say that CIC know and understand all this and turn a blind eye to truck drivers in my position and they themselves have received citizenship without submitting an FBI check but I'm not a gambler and I of course worry that my file will land on the desk of someone a bit more keen to follow the bureaucratic process.
Anyway, enough whining, if I have to do it, then I have to do it. Thanks for your input here, I really appreciate it.

 

[robinhood_1984]

I concur in @spyfy's caution about date acrobatics.

But I am also assuming you continue to reside in Canada and are adding more days to the days-present-total. While a larger margin over the minimum is not necessary, so long as there is a good margin depending on circumstances, a larger margin never hurts and can offer more insurance. For someone who has traveled abroad (as in to the U.S.) as frequently as it appears you have, a very substantial margin over the minimum would be a good idea, one measured in months not weeks.

Thanks for your very detailed response. As much as I hate to delay applying, you are absolutely right that its better to delay now and do things right, rather than rush it now and risk adding a huge amount of time and problems to the process later.

As for days present. The only reason I've left it so long to apply for citizenship was the 'physical presence' requirement which catches out most long haul truck drivers. Most Canadian truck drivers are engaged in cross border transportation, its just where the majority of the work is and how the economy is set up and I'd always assumed I'd never meet the requirements. I know of at least one other driver who applied anyway, without the correct number of days and successfully argued his case that he was driving a Canadian truck for a Canadian employer, delivering Canadian goods, earning money in to his Canadian bank account to pay for his Canadian home and life and it was accepted without any issue.
My wife and I have just had our second baby and I've taken parental leave, which I'm currently still on and its given me time to sort out of paperwork and I was shocked but delighted to realise that I do indeed qualify for citizenship based on physical presence, by quite a margin. On my current application I have 1400 days and this will only grow if I delay my application to wait for the FBI stuff as days are falling off the back of the 5 years and currently no new days away are being added.

 

[dpenabill]

I know of at least one other driver who applied anyway, without the correct number of days and successfully argued his case that he was driving a Canadian truck for a Canadian employer, delivering Canadian goods, earning money in to his Canadian bank account to pay for his Canadian home and life and it was accepted without any issue.

This individual must have applied prior to Harper's Bill C-24 taking effect, which implemented the strict physical presence requirement. Prior to that it was a RESIDENCY requirement, and thus truck drivers, international airline personnel, and other frequent travelers, whose lives were centralized in Canada could qualify for and be granted citizenship despite not being physically present for 1095 days. (Back then the physical presence threshold was 1095 days within 4 years, which was particularly tough to meet for some long-haul truckers, cross-border bus drivers, international airline personnel, and so on . . . current rule, three years in five allows individuals a lot more flexibility, as they only need to be in Canada three-fifths of the time whereas under the old-old rules four-fifths of the time needed to be in Canada to meet the requirement based on a physical presence standard; and under Harper's Bill C-24 the PR needed to be in Canada two-thirds of the time, but that was also a strict physical presence requirement.)

For any application made after June 11, 2015, falling one day short of the actual presence requirement (again, currently a 3/5 years rule) means the application MUST fail. There is no leeway allowed by the statute.

One of the problems with relying too much on anecdotal reports, in addition to the fact that there are always different circumstances for different individuals, is that the law and rules and policies have changed a lot over the course of just the last few years.


Edit to correct and clarify: I reference the physical presence rule before June 2015 as requiring four-fifths of the time in Canada; that was incorrect. It was three-quarters (obviously, it was a 3/4 rule). Nonetheless that did not allow much leeway for cross-border employment. Current three-fifths is far more flexible AND prior to June 2015, only day of exit or day or entry counted as in Canada, but since both the day of exit and the date of entry count as days in Canada . . . for frequent border crossing, that adds an additional day in Canada each trip.

 

[robinhood_1984]

This individual must have applied prior to Harper's Bill C-24 taking effect, which implemented the strict physical presence requirement. Prior to that it was a RESIDENCY requirement, and thus truck drivers, international airline personnel, and other frequent travelers, whose lives were centralized in Canada could qualify for and be granted citizenship despite not being physically present for 1095 days. (Back then the physical presence threshold was 1095 days within 4 years, which was particularly tough to meet for some long-haul truckers, cross-border bus drivers, international airline personnel, and so on . . . current rule, three years in five allows individuals a lot more flexibility, as they only need to be in Canada three-fifths of the time whereas under the old-old rules four-fifths of the time needed to be in Canada to meet the requirement based on a physical presence standard; and under Harper's Bill C-24 the PR needed to be in Canada two-thirds of the time, but that was also a strict physical presence requirement.)

For any application made after June 11, 2015, falling one day short of the actual presence requirement (again, currently a 3/5 years rule) means the application MUST fail. There is no leeway allowed by the statute.

One of the problems with relying too much on anecdotal reports, in addition to the fact that there are always different circumstances for different individuals, is that the law and rules and policies have changed a lot over the course of just the last few years.

Yes, I'm sure he applied and got citizenship well before June 2015, more like late 2011 or early 2012.

Thankfully my current job I've been doing for the past 4.5 years involves lots of shorter runs with a lot of coming and going over the border, giving me loads of additional days of physical presence because of that. Doing the job I did prior to this one, I would still fall short of even the current requirements as the trips were much longer and I was racking days away up at twice my current rate, but as I say, those last 6 months of that job are falling off of the 5 year cliff and currently being replaced by Canada days as I'm at home doing nothing right now so my current 1400 days in 5 years is increasing by the day.

I'll be getting on with sorting out finger prints and the FBI check in the next few days. A friend of mine says he and his friend (also truck drivers) have used a company in Toronto to do the FBI check and they had it back in about a week, but everything I've read says that only US citizens and permanent residents are eligible for that fast track service but he and his friend have never had that status in the US. Do you know anything about this and if its even possible? The company I've found and he's suggested is www.fingerscan.ca and it states that you should get in touch with them if you need your FBI report back in 5-10 days.