Having PR from both Canada and Australia

[aydogan]

Hello,

I know it has been asked several times in the past, but when I searched the entire forum, I could not find up to date info regarding comparison between CA and AU.

I am a Materials Engineer from Turkey Istanbul.
We (wife and 3 years old daughter) have granted our PR visas both from AU and CA few months ago. We have visited both countries to complete our soft landings and to explore them in order to decide where to move. I have been working as project & procurement engineer in several multinational projects, but I am about to lose my job here, and that would be perfect timing for me to look for new opportunities in a new country.

Actually, it is not an easy decision since we liked both AU and CA in different ways. As far as we understood and learned from several sources like internet forums and some friends, both countries have pros and cons as below.

AU (Brisbane, Sydney)
++We have a few good friends in AU
++The climate is moch more better
++Minimum wages and average wages are higher.
++You may have reasonable life standards by working in survival/casual jobs till finding a professional one with a better salary.
--Engineering & engineering-related job ads are relatively far less than CA.
--Economy is not good. Not much manufacturing, but mining, IT and service industry based.
--It is way too far to Istanbul, also remote from the rest of the world
--It is seem to be becoming politically harsh to the immigrants, laws and regulations are being considered to harden
--The citizenship procedure takes minimum 4 years. Government is also trying to make it harder.

CA (Toronto)
++It is much more easy (half price, half time) to travel from Istanbul. Not remote from the world.
++it is also close to USA for business opportunuties or touristic visits, etc.
++More engineering & engineering-related job ads are being published than AU
++Economy seems stronger, more diverse compared to AU.
++Politically more open & welcoming to immigrants.
++Citizenship can be obtained in 3 years. Just reduced from 4 years.
--Climate is far worse than AU. Very harsh winters for us considering ourselves as Aegean.
--We do not have any close friends there.
--Minimum wages are lower than AU.
--Casual & survival jobs may not be enough to survive for a family with kid.
--Finding a professional job may be very difficult (heard that it can take 1 to 2 years!).

As a result, we are now considering to move to AU, firstly for economical and secondly for climatic factors.
However, taking this kind of decision for the future of our family is really very tough and stressfull. Therefore we would want to crosscheck our decision in different ways as much as possible.

I am well aware that this is a Canada forum, but since we are all trying to be immigrants, you may had been through this "country choosing process", therefore your opinion would be very valuable for us.

What do you think?
Do you agree or disagree to our choice?
Do you have any advice for us?
Would you add anything or do you have any objection to the pros and cons list?

We would really apreciate if you kindly share your comments.
Thank you!

 

[canuck78]

The climate in Toronto isn't that bad. If you were considering somewhere like Winnipeg that would be different but don't be to scared off by a little bit of winter

 

[DEEPCUR]

I work in IT, had this confusion as soon as I had a need for immigration and chose Canada even before applying. I didn’t want waste money as Australian PR is very expensive. Plus I need to spend additional $200 either for skill assessment or ECA.

In my research I found there isn't anything that makes or breaks the deal for one of the country. Both are more or less similar developed countries except the drastic weather difference.

The reasons for choosing Canada were:

1) I live in US and it is easier for me to find jobs, and logistics perspective to move to Canada.

2) I did a simple test for job market for my skills to statistically check which country has better job prospects. I searched my skills in indeed.ca and au.indeed.com , and found that there were at least thrice the amount of jobs in Canada for my skillset.

3) Canada's biggest plus would be US. I'm living in US and opportunities here for any profession is just unparalleled. Wages are high (not the minimum wages, wages for any white collar job is quite high), opportunities are more and cost of living is quite low, significantly lower than Canada or Australia. Canada is too close ally to US and Canadians don't require visa to visit or study in US. If my kid wants to study or work in future in US, she stands much better chance being Canadian citizen. At a lowest level, people cross borders for doing grocery which way cheaper in US.

Australia has new Zealand, but that's another immigrant dependent expensive country and no match to US.

Few dialemma on not choosing Australia were:

1) Australia has best health care system in the world, at least from what I read. On the other hand Canada has growing concerns like high wait times, insufficient doctors etc. Australia also has two tier system where one can elect to pay for insurance which could work well for people employed with good salary in skilled jobs. Canadian system is more socialist.

2) tropical weather. I live in North Eastern US and have experienced four seasons weather similar to Canada. I don't like it honestly. It gets pitch dark and quite at 4:30 in evening from November to March once day light savings are in place, it feels so terrible and depressing. I chose Canada knowing that I have to live with for other reasons.

Some specific negatives I heard about Australia were:

1) Sydney has become too crowded and infrastructure hasn't grown in parallel

2) coming across poisonous and non poisonous creatures commonly. I hate reptiles

3) looming water scarcity

4) ever growing immigrant hate and noticeable incidents against them

I'd suggest you not to bother too much things like minimum wage, living on minimum wage as we all are migrating as skilled immigrants, and at some point will move to white collar jobs. You need to exclude that from your pros and cons. One cannot have good lifestyle in survival jobs forever. And if it's needed to live in minimum wage forever, we are better off in home country in our professions.

And Australian job market is equally challenging like Canadian market, and it might take same time as Canadian job market to get skilled job. Emphasis on local experience is present in Australia too. This is mainly because of reliability and genuine factor. Out of country experiences are hard to verify for employer and there's preference for local experience.

Adapting to Canadian weather might be bit of challenge initially, and Australia wins hands down on that aspect. But if you ignore that part, you should move only to the place where your experience can be put to best use and you can land in skilled job at the earliest

 

[Bs65]

Of course one plus with Australia apart from warmer weather is that Australian citizens or PRs can go live/ work in NZ without a visa or permit if opportunities come up or they simply want to move to a cooler climate but not cold.

From a climate viewpoint both Australia and NZ are likely if press is to be believed likely to suffer from climate change ahead of some other parts of the world as far as share of wilder weather is concerned, hotter and wetter seasons .

The downside of living in the Australasia region it is a long way from anywhere so pretty isolated. Although I guess with more albeit very long direct flights to US/Canada west coast and west coast Australia to Europe direct starting next year less so.

As per previous poster depends on priorities in life where the best opportunisties are for work and more importantly family.

 

[DEEPCUR]

I dont know how important this is for you.. but Canada is best for extended family reunification. They have super visa which lets parents stay two years at a stretch with us. Plus one can sponsor parents PR after three years too.

Australia too cold against parents immigration and mention that it will take 25+ years for sponsoring parents. Also even for regular visitor visa one needs to apply for every single visit and get only some months approval. Canada gives multiple entry ten years visitor visa at least for Indian nationals.

 

[aydogan]

The climate in Toronto isn't that bad. If you were considering somewhere like Winnipeg that would be different but don't be to scared off by a little bit of winter

Thank you for the reply Actually some of our friends in Toronto tells the same.
They say that they got used to the winter conditions and they have hot summers and nice weathers in spring and autumn as well. But I am not sure how long the bad weather takes during the year.

Actually, having cold winters does not seem to be "biggest" problem for us. Eventhough it is very cold in the winter, it is nice to have all seasons.
We have 4 seasons in Istanbul. Our winters are mild though, we have maximum 10 days with snow and below 0 degrees. Summers are also mild, we have maximum 10 days over 35 degrees. Additionally, our springs and autumns are pretty nice.

But my concern is the length (amount) of the cold/dark days, or bad-weather days.
Because it directly affects the daily life routines, your activities, your psychology, your mood, and it forms the entire culture of the country. Consequently, weather is linked to culture, and culture is related to everything in our lives.
Therefore having 3 months of hard winters is something we may handle, but having bad weather for 6-7-8 months is something concerns us a lot.

Can you please clarify, how many days you guys have mild or hot days (summer + spring + autumn) in Toronto?

 

[aydogan]

I work in IT, had this confusion as soon as I had a need for immigration and chose Canada even before applying. I didn’t want waste money as Australian PR is very expensive. Plus I need to spend additional $200 either for skill assessment or ECA.

In my research I found there isn't anything that makes or breaks the deal for one of the country. Both are more or less similar developed countries except the drastic weather difference.

The reasons for choosing Canada were:

1) I live in US and it is easier for me to find jobs, and logistics perspective to move to Canada.

2) I did a simple test for job market for my skills to statistically check which country has better job prospects. I searched my skills in indeed.ca and au.indeed.com , and found that there were at least thrice the amount of jobs in Canada for my skillset.

3) Canada's biggest plus would be US. I'm living in US and opportunities here for any profession is just unparalleled. Wages are high (not the minimum wages, wages for any white collar job is quite high), opportunities are more and cost of living is quite low, significantly lower than Canada or Australia. Canada is too close ally to US and Canadians don't require visa to visit or study in US. If my kid wants to study or work in future in US, she stands much better chance being Canadian citizen. At a lowest level, people cross borders for doing grocery which way cheaper in US.

Thank you for your detailed reply. It really helps us.
I am not very well aware about the real advantage of having CA passport when it comes to work or study in USA. As far as I know, TN visa is temprorary and have some limitating conditions such as you need to have a spesific profession, you need to submit some documents, your wife cannot have work permit, etc. Am I wrong? Having a Canadian passport, can you just get a TN visa easily and then look for job in USA?

I dont know how important this is for you.. but Canada is best for extended family reunification. They have super visa which lets parents stay two years at a stretch with us. Plus one can sponsor parents PR after three years too.

Australia too cold against parents immigration and mention that it will take 25+ years for sponsoring parents. Also even for regular visitor visa one needs to apply for every single visit and get only some months approval. Canada gives multiple entry ten years visitor visa at least for Indian nationals.

Thank you for pointing out this fact. That is quite important for us. Do you know is there a minimum stay reuirement in CA before sending invitation or sponsoring our parents?

I'd suggest you not to bother too much things like minimum wage, living on minimum wage as we all are migrating as skilled immigrants, and at some point will move to white collar jobs. You need to exclude that from your pros and cons. One cannot have good lifestyle in survival jobs forever. And if it's needed to live in minimum wage forever, we are better off in home country in our professions.

Yes you are right, I am hoping not to work in survival jobs forever
But isn't that possible to make inference that; If survival or low-level jobs are paying good, then you are not extremely dependant on your current job or your career in order to maintain a good life. And that might change the entire logic of the individual in terms of work-life balance. It sounds somehow liberating to me.
In other words, it sounds to me, in CA your job/title is very crucial and determinant to have a reasonable life standard with your family, but in AU your job is not as crucial as in CA.
I am not sure if this logic is right, and I would really like to hear other opinions.
What do you think?

 

[DEEPCUR]

You of course need a job offer for TN visa, and it is limited to specific professions as you mentioned. But nothing document heavy. You just need an offer letter from the employer. You need to show that in Port of entry and border personal would grant visa on the spot. No other paperwork required.

I know IT is part of it in some way. For studying, nothing is required. H1b is another way to work.. although there is no quota for Canadians, if you are a real talent, working it out is lot easier if you happen to be in Canada. Being closer to US will also have other advantages.. US is most medically advanced in the world. Good forbid if there's need for some unique treatment in future, US would be the place to go.

For parents.. one year of income required for super visa.. three years of income required for filling PR to them. Your income doesn't matter for visitor visa.. if your country has reciprocity agreement, visitor visa can be ten years multiple entry whereas one needs to apply visitor visa for every visit separately for Australia.

I don't have first-hand experience with this minimum wage thing, but I really don't believe that it would be possible to maintain good lifestyle with minimum wages in any country. Also it is not true that you cannot live on minimum wages in Canada. There are tons of threads in this forum where people have shown the math for smooth living in minimum wage. Also I generally found Sydney to be lot more expensive compared to Toronto.

 

[DEEPCUR]

Thank you for the reply Actually some of our friends in Toronto tells the same.
They say that they got used to the winter conditions and they have hot summers and nice weathers in spring and autumn as well. But I am not sure how long the bad weather takes during the year.

Actually, having cold winters does not seem to be "biggest" problem for us. Eventhough it is very cold in the winter, it is nice to have all seasons.
We have 4 seasons in Istanbul. Our winters are mild though, we have maximum 10 days with snow and below 0 degrees. Summers are also mild, we have maximum 10 days over 35 degrees. Additionally, our springs and autumns are pretty nice.

But my concern is the length (amount) of the cold/dark days, or bad-weather days.
Because it directly affects the daily life routines, your activities, your psychology, your mood, and it forms the entire culture of the country. Consequently, weather is linked to culture, and culture is related to everything in our lives.
Therefore having 3 months of hard winters is something we may handle, but having bad weather for 6-7-8 months is something concerns us a lot.

Can you please clarify, how many days you guys have mild or hot days (summer + spring + autumn) in Toronto?

November to April is more or less like what you said. Dark and gloomy. this year it was getting cold on and off up to June third week too.

 

[DEEPCUR]

If you have made up your mind for Australia, just go for it. You cannot go right or wrong with either. Both have their own set of benefits and challenges, and I'd say it's pretty much a tie. I have come across a phrase that was saying Canada is pretty much another Australia with winters. The only place Australia would score clear win is weather and it is something that's definitely worth weighing in because cold and dark weather affects moods big time, no matter what people say

 

[aydogan]

If you have made up your mind for Australia, just go for it. You cannot go right or wrong with either. Both have their own set of benefits and challenges, and I'd say it's pretty much a tie. I have come across a phrase that was saying Canada is pretty much another Australia with winters. The only place Australia would score clear win is weather and it is something that's definitely worth weighing in because cold and dark weather affects moods big time, no matter what people say

Actually we are really in a difficult position, the more we search for it, the more we become in two minds about the country choice.
One day I wake up with the decision of AU, but the next day I decide CA is better option for us. Having a 3 years old kid is making this much more complicated as well.
I do not know how to proceed, how and what to search more...

 

[DEEPCUR]

Actually we are really in a difficult position, the more we search for it, the more we become in two minds about the country choice.
One day I wake up with the decision of AU, but the next day I decide CA is better option for us. Having a 3 years old kid is making this much more complicated as well.
I do not know how to proceed, how and what to search more...

Actually I don't have any answer to put you at ease!

I actually got two televisions last month and going through similar dialemma right now. In US, we can return items to store within certain time frame.. so I'm breaking my head on which to keep and which to return. I am undergoing similar feelings.. waking up one day with one choice. .. I can relate how difficult it must be to make bigger choice like this.

I still sometimes feel iffy about not choosing Australia.. The only way I convince myself those times for Canada is US, parents visa and better scene for tech jobs. Australia has no scope for 1 and 2. Canada factually better in 3 (more jobs in indeed). Find some silver lining for yourself like I did!

 

[meyakanor]

Something to keep in mind is the fact that the residency requirement for Canadian PR is probably a little more strict than Australian PR for the first five years.

While Canadian PRs are expected to be physically present in Canada for 2 years out of a rolling 5 year period, with Australian PR, you are free to come in and go out of the country for the first five years.

There is a similar two out of five years requirement, but that would only be relevant during renewal.

So for example, even if you don't stay a single day within the first five years, and come back to Australia a week from the expiration time of your PR Visa, they would let you in and you would not get into trouble. It's just that you would then have to stay in the country without leaving until you get 2 years before you can renew the visa.

Australian and Canadian permanent resident status are not like green card in that, once you are PR, you don't need to carry valid visa or PR card, again, unlike green card.

 

[aydogan]

Something to keep in mind is the fact that the residency requirement for Canadian PR is probably a little more strict than Australian PR for the first five years.

While Canadian PRs are expected to be physically present in Canada for 2 years out of a rolling 5 year period, with Australian PR, you are free to come in and go out of the country for the first five years.

There is a similar two out of five years requirement, but that would only be relevant during renewal.

So for example, even if you don't stay a single day within the first five years, and come back to Australia a week from the expiration time of your PR Visa, they would let you in and you would not get into trouble. It's just that you would then have to stay in the country without leaving until you get 2 years before you can renew the visa.

Australian and Canadian permanent resident status are not like green card in that, once you are PR, you don't need to carry valid visa or PR card, again, unlike green card.

Thank you for pointing out that. It should be considered in case of trying to maintaining the PRs, even getting citizenships of both country.
In case of aiming that, first we can live in CA for full 3 years, apply for the citizenship, gain it -let's say the citizenship procedure will take 1 year more, then move to AUS in the 4th year of the visa. Then we can gain AUS citizenship in 4 years as well.
I have no idea what would I do with both CA & AU passports though

 

[meyakanor]

Thank you for pointing out that. It should be considered in case of trying to maintaining the PRs, even getting citizenships of both country.
In case of aiming that, first we can live in CA for full 3 years, apply for the citizenship, gain it -let's say the citizenship procedure will take 1 year more, then move to AUS in the 4th year of the visa. Then we can gain AUS citizenship in 4 years as well.
I have no idea what would I do with both CA & AU passports though

That would be a strategy worth considering if citizenships in both countries really are your goal, but such a plan would carry a risk if somehow, your Canadian citizenship application takes much longer than expected.

In the event that everything goes smoothly, you should budget a one year of citizenship processing times after submitting your application, so that would be 4 years roughly after you reside in Canada.

Also, for Australian citizenship application, you need to reside in Australia for 4 years as well, and the processing times also take about a year.

So after moving back to Australia (presumably as a Canadian citizen), then you would have to stay in the country without leaving for two years to renew your visa, then reside two extra years before you can apply for AUS citizenship.

Needless to say, this would be about 9 to 10 years in the future if you are really serious about pursuing this (including two years in Australia where you cannot leave the country)

The reason why I brought this up is because I personally know somebody who is in such situation. He became a Canadian citizen, then move to Australia as a PR (after securing an Australian job)