Income requirement after change in martial status

[sappi]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding income requirement for PGP sponsorship. I am planning on sponsoring my mom and dad next year. I meet income requirement for 3 people for past 4 years (tried this year too but wasn't chosen in the lottery). I am getting married beginning of 2018, which will make the size of my family from 3 to 4 people. I am wondering how does that impact my income requirement for sponsorship. I know for sure that in the year of marriage (2018), i will need to have income as per 4 people but what about previous 2 years that i was single?

 

[Rob_TO]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding income requirement for PGP sponsorship. I am planning on sponsoring my mom and dad next year. I meet income requirement for 3 people for past 4 years (tried this year too but wasn't chosen in the lottery). I am getting married beginning of 2018, which will make the size of my family from 3 to 4 people. I am wondering how does that impact my income requirement for sponsorship. I know for sure that in the year of marriage (2018), i will need to have income as per 4 people but what about previous 2 years that i was single?

You must meet family size at time of submitting the application, for all previous years. So for you that means family size of 4 going back to possibly 2014.

 

[sappi]

You must meet family size at time of submitting the application, for all previous years. So for you that means family size of 4 going back to possibly 2014.

Okay, thanks a lot

 

[sappi]

You must meet family size at time of submitting the application, for all previous years. So for you that means family size of 4 going back to possibly 2014.

Hi,

I just saw your answer to a similar post today to someone else. Then i remembered you had replied to me. I appreciate you answering. However, the information you gave is not correct. I have called IRCC twice and noted down both the agent's numbers for identification. They both had the same answer. I do have to maintain the income requirement for my spouse till the case is approved but only from the year of my wedding. If i get selected in this year's lottery, I only need income requirement for 3 people for last 3 years. But since i will be married in 2018, I will need to maintain income per 4 members starting 2018 and IRCC has the right to ensure i am doing that till the very end of the case. I know we are all trying to help each other at this forum cuz we been in the same boat but please only do so if you are certain of the information.

 

[Rob_TO]

Hi,

I just saw your answer to a similar post today to someone else. Then i remembered you had replied to me. I appreciate you answering. However, the information you gave is not correct. I have called IRCC twice and noted down both the agent's numbers for identification. They both had the same answer. I do have to maintain the income requirement for my spouse till the case is approved but only from the year of my wedding. If i get selected in this year's lottery, I only need income requirement for 3 people for last 3 years. But since i will be married in 2018, I will need to maintain income per 4 members starting 2018 and IRCC has the right to ensure i am doing that till the very end of the case. I know we are all trying to help each other at this forum cuz we been in the same boat but please only do so if you are certain of the information.

You should realize that the call centre agents give out wrong information all the time. We see it all the time here. This sounds no different. If you call them a few more times, you'll probably get a few different answers.

The rules from 2014 - 2017 have been the same - family size as of day you submit the app, is the family size you need to submit for all 3 previous years.

If those call centre agents have seen documented brand new rules never used before that family size is now only calculated to Dec 31, 2017, then you better make sure of this. Else I would simply assume they are wrong. And if you calculate family size wrong at time of your app, a visa officer won't care what any call centre agent told you otherwise.

Simply reading the intent form also shows the agents are wrong:
2. How many family members are currently in your family unit? (required)

Count the members of your family unit. If you have a co-signer, add the members of your co-signers` family unit. Include:

• yourself
• your spouse or common-law partner

They ask for "current" family size, NOT family size as of Dec 31, 2017.

And if you get married in 2018 and your spouse will be a co-signer, form even states specifically they must be included in family size despite the fact you were married in 2018!

 

[YVR123]

Hi,

I just saw your answer to a similar post today to someone else. Then i remembered you had replied to me. I appreciate you answering. However, the information you gave is not correct. I have called IRCC twice and noted down both the agent's numbers for identification. They both had the same answer. I do have to maintain the income requirement for my spouse till the case is approved but only from the year of my wedding. If i get selected in this year's lottery, I only need income requirement for 3 people for last 3 years. But since i will be married in 2018, I will need to maintain income per 4 members starting 2018 and IRCC has the right to ensure i am doing that till the very end of the case. I know we are all trying to help each other at this forum cuz we been in the same boat but please only do so if you are certain of the information.

And it's not about THE YEAR. If you are getting married in Dec 2018, I am pretty sure you will still be single when you submit the application (if you get picked in the lottery).
So it's the family size when the application is submitted. And you need to use the size for LICO for the past 3 years (2015, 2016, 2017).
Since you mentioned that the wedding will be early 2018, most likely you need to use family size of 4.

 

[sappi]

And it's not about THE YEAR. If you are getting married in Dec 2018, I am pretty sure you will still be single when you submit the application (if you get picked in the lottery).
So it's the family size when the application is submitted. And you need to use the size for LICO for the past 3 years (2015, 2016, 2017).
Since you mentioned that the wedding will be early 2018, most likely you need to use family size of 4.

That is exactly what i talked to IRCC agents and i know not all of them are perfect so i confirmed with TWO agents. They certainly are the professionals who know better than us. I will be married by the time of application if i do get selected in lottery because my wedding is in March 2018. As per BOTH the IRCC agents, I will need income requirement of 3 people for 2015, 2016, and 2017, provided i attach my marriage certificate showing my wedding was not in 2017 or prior. However, IRCC has the right to refuse my application if i do not have income requirement per 4 people "starting" 2018 and till the end of the application because they can asses that at any time during the process.

 

[sappi]

You should realize that the call centre agents give out wrong information all the time. We see it all the time here. This sounds no different. If you call them a few more times, you'll probably get a few different answers.

The rules from 2014 - 2017 have been the same - family size as of day you submit the app, is the family size you need to submit for all 3 previous years.

If those call centre agents have seen documented brand new rules never used before that family size is now only calculated to Dec 31, 2017, then you better make sure of this. Else I would simply assume they are wrong. And if you calculate family size wrong at time of your app, a visa officer won't care what any call centre agent told you otherwise.

Simply reading the intent form also shows the agents are wrong:
2. How many family members are currently in your family unit? (required)

Count the members of your family unit. If you have a co-signer, add the members of your co-signers` family unit. Include:

• yourself
• your spouse or common-law partner

They ask for "current" family size, NOT family size as of Dec 31, 2017.

And if you get married in 2018 and your spouse will be a co-signer, form even states specifically they must be included in family size despite the fact you were married in 2018!

I understand they can be wrong and that is the reason i talked to two of them. One of the agent even gave me an example. She said lets say at the time of lottery, your spouse is pregnant. Technically, you will say you have 4 members (myself, spouse, mom, and dad). But after the submission and prior to application (if i get selected), my spouse gives birth to a child. This would mean now the family size is 5. I would still be needing same income requirement till the change in family size (starting 2018). That was what was told by the IRCC agents and i do understand they can be wrong but for now that is what i believe because it is their job after all and the second person who gave me an example had deep knowledge of various immigration issues i could tell. That being said, i can only state that professionals gave me that information and rest is up to each individuals. That is why i suggested the other person to call IRCC agents to make his decision. We can give all the suggestions we want but IRCC agents are there to provide that information. If anyone calls them and gets information opposite to what i said, i will appreciate if they can let me know and i can try calling them again several times. After all we are all trying to help each other.

 

[Rob_TO]

I understand they can be wrong and that is the reason i talked to two of them. One of the agent even gave me an example. She said lets say at the time of lottery, your spouse is pregnant. Technically, you will say you have 4 members (myself, spouse, mom, and dad). But after the submission and prior to application (if i get selected), my spouse gives birth to a child. This would mean now the family size is 5. I would still be needing same income requirement till the change in family size (starting 2018). That was what was told by the IRCC agents and i do understand they can be wrong but for now that is what i believe because it is their job after all and the second person who gave me an example had deep knowledge of various immigration issues i could tell. That being said, i can only state that professionals gave me that information and rest is up to each individuals. That is why i suggested the other person to call IRCC agents to make his decision. We can give all the suggestions we want but IRCC agents are there to provide that information. If anyone calls them and gets information opposite to what i said, i will appreciate if they can let me know and i can try calling them again several times. After all we are all trying to help each other.

Haha sorry had to laugh at the "professional" comment regarding IRCC call centre agents. While some are certainly nice and helpful, the sheer volume of flat out wrong info they have given to forum members on this site, is mind boggling.

So what happens in an example where someone gets married or has a new baby on Jan 15, 2018? You are saying their family size would be different for previous 3 years, depending if they submitted the expression of interest web-form before or after Jan 15? This makes zero sense.

In the past it has always gone by family size as of date of the application. If IRCC is now suddenly locking in the family size as of date of expression of interest form and allowing no changes to family size afterwards, that is an entirely brand new rule and would need to read it specifically in the 2018 application forms (which aren't released yet) to be sure of it. However what I suspect is that they will follow same rule as 2017 and previous years, which means your family size on the day you submit the app, is the family size you need to use for 3 previous years. So for now will continue to assume the call centre agents are wrong, unless the 2018 app actually shows differently.

You are certainly free to interpret the rules otherwise. Just note having a call centre agent's ID number will do nothing. I would get them to also send you what they are telling you in writing so in the likely scenario your app is later refused, perhaps an appeals judge will be more lenient if you have documented proof an IRCC agent gave you wrong info (though even this may not help).

Would also be interested to hear other forum member's views on this. Many other members I would take their opinion over any call centre agent.

 

[sappi]

Haha sorry had to laugh at the "professional" comment regarding IRCC call centre agents. While some are certainly nice and helpful, the sheer volume of flat out wrong info they have given to forum members on this site, is mind boggling.

So what happens in an example where someone gets married or has a new baby on Jan 15, 2018? You are saying their family size would be different for previous 3 years, depending if they submitted the expression of interest web-form before or after Jan 15? This makes zero sense.

In the past it has always gone by family size as of date of the application. If IRCC is now suddenly locking in the family size as of date of expression of interest form and allowing no changes to family size afterwards, that is an entirely brand new rule and would need to read it specifically in the 2018 application forms (which aren't released yet) to be sure of it. However what I suspect is that they will follow same rule as 2017 and previous years, which means your family size on the day you submit the app, is the family size you need to use for 3 previous years. So for now will continue to assume the call centre agents are wrong, unless the 2018 app actually shows differently.

You are certainly free to interpret the rules otherwise. Just note having a call centre agent's ID number will do nothing. I would get what they are telling you in writing so in the likely scenario your app is later refused, perhaps an appeals judge will be more lenient if you have documented proof an IRCC agent gave you wrong info (though even this may not help).

Thank you for your concern and your answers. Like I said, I do understand they can be wrong. And i am planning on talking to one the local immigration lawyer too IF at any point i feel both the agents were wrong (I will prolly call IRCC 2-3 times before). Until then that is my believe. And i mean it when i say that i am not saying you are wrong but you should understand that we are not hired by the government to give that information, they are. Like i said, the second agent had tremendous knowledge regarding her job. I asked her about two other situations and i could confirm both of the answers with IRCC website. Now the website can not be wrong. One of those two situation i asked was that what happens if someone leaves Canada after applying for post graduation work permit. There are three outcomes she informed me right away without taking any time to look anywhere and later i confirmed those three were the exact outcomes per IRCC website and you have valid grounds to appeal if you made your decision based on false information on the IRCC website. I asked those 2 questions because i had been though that situation before and i knew the answer, just wanted to see if the agents will have to look up or something or they have the knowledge. In general too, I did not have 4 members in 2015, 2016, or 2017. Nor AT the time of lottery. So i would be lying to IRCC if i had stated my family size is 4 at the time of lottery just cuz i anticipate my wedding just a couple of months later. I stated the fact that i have 3 members in my family. IRCC specifically asks

Finally, The best thing about that second agent was that she was specific. She gave me an example. AND she pointed out the question in the application itself that matters. Question number 8. Look it up in the application, it asks you WHAT is the date of your marriage. She said as long i have attached proof (marriage certificate) that my wedding was in 2018 and not prior, I will be asses based on facts and the family size i had in the assessment period. When i sponsor my spouse, I will be informing in the form that i have undertaking of "4" members (because i would have already applied for both my parents by then). But not the other way around.

 

[Rob_TO]

AND she pointed out the question in the application itself that matters. Question number 8. Look it up in the application, it asks you WHAT is the date of your marriage. She said as long i have attached proof (marriage certificate) that my wedding was in 2018 and not prior, I will be asses based on facts and the family size i had in the assessment period. When i sponsor my spouse, I will be informing in the form that i have undertaking of "4" members (because i would have already applied for both my parents by then). But not the other way around.

That question on marriage/common-law date is standard on all generic application forms. Note the question is not on the financial evaluation form specific to parents sponsorship.

Read the actual financial form (from 2017) you'll need to fill out: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/pdf/kits/forms/imm5768e.pdf

What will you write for question 5?: 5. Your spouse or common-law partner... if he or she is not co-signing the application.

From what you are saying you will need to put "0" here, even though you will actually have a spouse when filling in the form, and even though there is zero mention in this form about if the spouse/common-law partner is from current or previous tax year.

There are then additional questions about "current situation" of spouse, do you intend to leave all those blank as if you don't have a spouse? You do know that "current' in IRCC terms, means as of the date you are filling in the application. And every single mention here even on the web-form, indicates they want "current".

Also, I would repeat my scenario question above on how the IRCC agent would advise someone to proceed:
"So what happens in an example where someone gets married or has a new baby on Jan 15, 2018? You are saying their family size would be different for previous 3 years, depending if they submitted the expression of interest web-form before or after Jan 15? "

So I still say the IRCC agent is wrong, but obviously we will know more when the 2018 application package is released and you can read the actual wording of these questions. i.e. if they indicate specifically they want all data as of the web-form submission date, and not "current" data, you would then be safe. Else if forms are similar to last year, then getting married may disqualify you. If it was me, I would try to postpone my wedding until after the parents app was officially submitted (assuming you won a lottery spot).

 

[sappi]

That question on marriage/common-law date is standard on all generic application forms. Note the question is not on the financial evaluation form specific to parents sponsorship.

Read the actual financial form (from 2017) you'll need to fill out: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/pdf/kits/forms/imm5768e.pdf

What will you write for question 5?: 5. Your spouse or common-law partner... if he or she is not co-signing the application.

From what you are saying you will need to put "0" here, even though you will actually have a spouse when filling in the form, and even though there is zero mention in this form about if the spouse/common-law partner is from current or previous tax year.

There are then additional questions about "current situation" of spouse, do you intend to leave all those blank as if you don't have a spouse? You do know that "current' in IRCC terms, means as of the date you are filling in the application. And every single mention here even on the web-form, indicates they want "current".

Also, I would repeat my scenario question above on how the IRCC agent would advise someone to proceed:
"So what happens in an example where someone gets married or has a new baby on Jan 15, 2018? You are saying their family size would be different for previous 3 years, depending if they submitted the expression of interest web-form before or after Jan 15? "

So I still say the IRCC agent is wrong, but obviously we will know more when the 2018 application package is released and you can read the actual wording of these questions. i.e. if they indicate specifically they want all data as of the web-form submission date, and not "current" data, you would then be safe.

I am not at all implying that date of submitting the expression of interest is what matters. I am saying the period of assessment is 2015, 2016, and 2017 for people applying in 2018. I WILL need income requirement for 4 people going forward that i have to maintain till the end of the application. And you got the co-signing part right. My spouse will not be part of my undertaking at the time i fill application for my parents cuz of the timeline it is not possible for me to get everything ready and sponsor my spouse before i fill application for my parents. That is what the agent told me that i will be mentioning about my previous undertaking (sponsoring my parents) when i LATER sponsor my spouse.

In general too, answer me this. I answered truthfully that i have family size of 3 people "currently" during submission of the expression of interest. Now IRCC requires the information has to be same in the application. For example, if i have put my name as "xyz" with a particular date of birth then the application has to reflect the same information for the reference number to be accepted. Now do you think i will not be able to apply just cuz i told the truth to IRCC and the condition changed after that and then i again told them the truth? Going by your "at the time of application" comment, i would be punished severely (not being able to apply cuz major information regarding number of people changed) for telling IRCC the truth that my "current" family size is 3 and not 4 just based on anticipation.

 

[sappi]

That question on marriage/common-law date is standard on all generic application forms. Note the question is not on the financial evaluation form specific to parents sponsorship.

Read the actual financial form (from 2017) you'll need to fill out: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/pdf/kits/forms/imm5768e.pdf

What will you write for question 5?: 5. Your spouse or common-law partner... if he or she is not co-signing the application.

From what you are saying you will need to put "0" here, even though you will actually have a spouse when filling in the form, and even though there is zero mention in this form about if the spouse/common-law partner is from current or previous tax year.

There are then additional questions about "current situation" of spouse, do you intend to leave all those blank as if you don't have a spouse? You do know that "current' in IRCC terms, means as of the date you are filling in the application. And every single mention here even on the web-form, indicates they want "current".

Also, I would repeat my scenario question above on how the IRCC agent would advise someone to proceed:
"So what happens in an example where someone gets married or has a new baby on Jan 15, 2018? You are saying their family size would be different for previous 3 years, depending if they submitted the expression of interest web-form before or after Jan 15? "

So I still say the IRCC agent is wrong, but obviously we will know more when the 2018 application package is released and you can read the actual wording of these questions. i.e. if they indicate specifically they want all data as of the web-form submission date, and not "current" data, you would then be safe. Else if forms are similar to last year, then getting married may disqualify you. If it was me, I would try to postpone my wedding until after the parents app was officially submitted (assuming you won a lottery spot).

When you submit the interest form, you tell IRCC exaclty how many members you have and how and who you want to sponsor. Those are the people i can sponsor. I can not just say i am submitting interest form now and once i get selected, i nominate someone else to sponsor on my behalf or that i wanna sponsor more or less people than what i indicated in the interest form. So i would tell them the truth at the point of submission of the interest form just to ensure i will not be able to apply cuz now my family size is not 3 anymore.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

I agree with Rob. A sponsor must meet LICO for the family size at the time of submitting the actual PR application. This has always been the rule and until IRCC specifically publishes something different on the website, it should be assumed that it will continue to be the rule.

I also had a good laugh at the "professionals" comment. The vast majority of the Call Centre staff are poorly trained and can't answer more than the most basic questions.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

I am not at all implying that date of submitting the expression of interest is what matters. I am saying the period of assessment is 2015, 2016, and 2017 for people applying in 2018. I WILL need income requirement for 4 people going forward that i have to maintain till the end of the application. And you got the co-signing part right. My spouse will not be part of my undertaking at the time i fill application for my parents cuz of the timeline it is not possible for me to get everything ready and sponsor my spouse before i fill application for my parents. That is what the agent told me that i will be mentioning about my previous undertaking (sponsoring my parents) when i LATER sponsor my spouse.

In general too, answer me this. I answered truthfully that i have family size of 3 people "currently" during submission of the expression of interest. Now IRCC requires the information has to be same in the application. For example, if i have put my name as "xyz" with a particular date of birth then the application has to reflect the same information for the reference number to be accepted. Now do you think i will not be able to apply just cuz i told the truth to IRCC and the condition changed after that and then i again told them the truth? Going by your "at the time of application" comment, i would be punished severely (not being able to apply cuz major information regarding number of people changed) for telling IRCC the truth that my "current" family size is 3 and not 4 just based on anticipation.

IRCC requires the sponsor/applicant info to be the same, i.e. you can't change the sponsor or add an applicant that you didn't declare in the interest form. However, family size can always fluctuate, so that can be different and you will certainly not be "severely punished". It is the same if an applicant/dependent were to die between submission of the interest form and the PR app; the family size would be different but it wouldn't matter.