US citizen and Canadian PR holder

[zeeshan35]

Hello All-
I am a US citizen but also a Canadian PR holder. I would like to get your thoughts if CBSA will try to get me to relinquish my PR status.
I became a landed permanent resident in April 2014, got PR card in March 2015 which is valid till March 2020.
I am not sure if I will ever settle in Canada but I don't want to give up my PR. I would rather let it expire on its own. I hardly have a few weeks if any, since I "landed" in April 2014. Residency question would come up if they find out I am a PR. I plan on using my US passport to enter Canada since I am only going there for a few days vacation.

 

[Buletruck]

So your PR status never expires. It's only the PR card that expires. At some point in time you can expect CBSA to question you on RO as, despite having a US passport, they would know your status (or at the very least be able to link the 2 together without a lot of effort since the two countries share this sort of information freely). At some point in time you are going to have to decide if you plan to maintain your PR or renounce it or appeal after being reported at a POE (it will happen sooner or later).

 

[zeeshan35]

Yes, I agree with the part that I will need to decide. I would like to have that happen after I get reported by CBSA, my PR card expired and then I am trying to renew it.

 

[Buletruck]

If you get reported (anytime after you have been out of the country for 3 years, regardless of whether your PR card has expired or not), you would need to look at an appeal of the decision. Without H&C grounds, you would loose your appeal and your PR would be revoked. You would also be best to remain in Canada during the appeal (short trips allowed) in order to provide proof of actually settling in Canada. During the appeal, time spent in Canada would not count for RO until you win the appeal.
Renewing without meeting RO would also result in your PR being revoked. No easy solution to your dilemma.

 

[zeeshan35]

It looks like either my PR will be getting revoked eventually or I can easily give it up when they pressure me.

 

[rish888]

It looks like either my PR will be getting revoked eventually or I can easily give it up when they pressure me.

Your post gives the impression that you are trying to have the best of both worlds, but be aware that this can have significant consequences.

Depending on your luck you could get away a few times, but there are only so many times. While you could relinquish your PR, keep in mind that your next entry to Canada would be as a visitor, which means you would not be allowed to work, live, or study without possession of the appropriate documents.

You are already in violation of your residency obligation, which could make your next entry into Canada problematic. If you manage to get in issue free, the best course of action to keep your PR would be to stay in the country for 2 years. If you don't mind loosing your PR, then as you said you can just relinquish it when you want, though I would keep the consequences of this in mind.

 

[zeeshan35]

Yes, I am trying to get best of both worlds. I would have even moved to Canada to gain the citizenship.However, it may cause issues with my US citizenship. This was prior to Trumps election, post Trump I am not comfortable with that idea.

 

[rish888]

Yes, I am trying to get best of both worlds. I would have even moved to Canada to gain the citizenship.However, it may cause issues with my US citizenship. This was prior to Trumps election, post Trump I am not comfortable with that idea.

I can understand the concern with Trump. However, you will not loose your U.S. citizenship by moving to Canada. (Regardless of who is the President.)

It seems that you prefer Canada over the U.S., in which case why not just move? Canada offers a lot of benefits that American doesn't have. I wouldn't worry about U.S. citizenship, even Trump cannot strip Americans of their citizenship just for becoming Canadian.

The path you are going on now will most likely see you losing your Canadian PR.

 

[Alurra71]

I can understand the concern with Trump. However, you will not loose your U.S. citizenship by moving to Canada. (Regardless of who is the President.)

It seems that you prefer Canada over the U.S., in which case why not just move? Canada offers a lot of benefits that American doesn't have. I wouldn't worry about U.S. citizenship, even Trump cannot strip Americans of their citizenship just for becoming Canadian.

The path you are going on now will most likely see you losing your Canadian PR.

While Trump himself cannot strip one of their US citizenship, becoming a passport holding Canadian while a US Citizen can cause you to lose citizenship in the US, if they actually wanted to pursue it. (Look up the "intent" clause for US citizens) While not very likely they would in fact pursue it for also becoming Canadian, I would not suggest you just arbitrarily rule out the possibility.

 

[rish888]

While Trump himself cannot strip one of their US citizenship, becoming a passport holding Canadian while a US Citizen can cause you to lose citizenship in the US, if they actually wanted to pursue it. (Look up the "intent" clause for US citizens) While not very likely they would in fact pursue it for also becoming Canadian, I would not suggest you just arbitrarily rule out the possibility.

You are taking this to an extreme here. I am familiar with the "intent" clause, however possible loss of U.S. citizenship due to acquiring foreign nationality would only be possible if the person "becomes naturalized with an intent to terminate U.S. citizenship."

The general standard of the State Department (as per their website) is that as long as the person does not join a hostile military of accept a high level political position in a foreign government, there is no intent to abandon present.

If an American decided to go to immigrate to North Korea and enlisted in their Armed Forces, they may quite possibly loose their citizenship. (For serving in a hostile military etc.) But an no one is going to give two hoots about an American who becomes a Canadian citizen.

There are plenty of U.S.-Canadian dual nationals in the world.

 

[Alurra71]

You are taking this to an extreme here. I am familiar with the "intent" clause, however possible loss of U.S. citizenship due to acquiring foreign nationality would only be possible if the person "becomes naturalized with an intent to terminate U.S. citizenship."

The general standard of the State Department (as per their website) is that as long as the person does not join a hostile military of accept a high level political position in a foreign government, there is no intent to abandon present.

If an American decided to go to immigrate to North Korea and enlisted in their Armed Forces, they may quite possibly loose their citizenship. (For serving in a hostile military etc.) But an no one is going to give two hoots about an American who becomes a Canadian citizen.

There are plenty of U.S.-Canadian dual nationals in the world.

The statement of "intent to terminate US citizenship" can and has been interpreted in different ways. By taking the oath of citizenship in another country that COULD be construed as intent to terminate citizenship. Because america is relatively lenient about dual citizenship (they don't want to lose a tax payer) then worrying about loss is kind of a moot point. I do, however still stand by my original statement, that while highly unlikely, not impossible.

 

[rish888]

The statement of "intent to terminate US citizenship" can and has been interpreted in different ways. By taking the oath of citizenship in another country that COULD be construed as intent to terminate citizenship. Because america is relatively lenient about dual citizenship (they don't want to lose a tax payer) then worrying about loss is kind of a moot point. I do, however still stand by my original statement, that while highly unlikely, not impossible.

The current position of the state department is that an oath by itself is not intent to terminate.

While this could theoretically change, it is highly, highly unlikely. Furthermore, even if there is any change in rules, it is highly unlikely it would affect dual citizens of friendly countries such as Canada.

Your point on tax is bang on. America continues to be one of the few countries that tax on worldwide income. Its just takes a little bit of common sense to realize that someone living in Canada-- utilizing Canadian, not American benefits-- but continuing to pay tax in America is a pretty sweet deal.

My 2 cents is that one's decision to move to Canada should not be based on a fear of loss of American citizenship. Out of all the possible things the could go wrong that would definitely be at the bottom of the list.

 

[rish888]

@zeeshan35

I was going through another post of a PR asking about train travel, and one of the replies noted that CBSA officers on the train don't have access to online systems that give out information on PR status.

if you're trying to get in undetected, maybe you could consider train travel, your PR status in unlikely to be noticed unless they take you off the train and into the office . (Or at least that's what I interpreted from the other post.)

 

[zeeshan35]

Alurra71 has nailed the thought behind my decision. The "intent" clause caused a US citizen an issue. There were couple of supreme court cases regarding stripping US citizenship from someone who had it.
Not only that, one of the US passport renewal asked whether you have been naturalized elsewhere for US naturalization. This was a red flag for me. The latest passport renewal form doesn't have that question. Laws are only as good as interpreted by the harshest prosecutor. The two landmark supreme court cases Afroyim v Rusk(1967) and Vance v Terrazas (1980) which made clear that persons intent had to be present along with the action before stripping citizenship.
State department currently has guidance regarding this i.e. persons intent had to be clear and they would ask the person if he/she intended to give it up. However, if the guidance changes, which could, under current administration, then you would be left to fight the case in courts which could take years. For example, guidance changed for green card holders when Trump signed his travel ban, many green card holders were turned away or were asked to sign 407 form giving up their green card status. It wasn't until Washington court stopped the ban but by then over 700 people were turned away from the border. Nobody in this country ever thought a green card holder rights would be diminished so much so, that they would be getting turned away from the border. There are other examples of guidance changes that I can cite.
Even though myself, Alurra are on the side of extreme, extreme caution and its most likely not to happen, I am still choosing to stay away from Canadian naturalization for now.

 

[mpsqra]

Hello All-
I am a US citizen but also a Canadian PR holder. I would like to get your thoughts if CBSA will try to get me to relinquish my PR status.
I became a landed permanent resident in April 2014, got PR card in March 2015 which is valid till March 2020.
I am not sure if I will ever settle in Canada but I don't want to give up my PR. I would rather let it expire on its own. I hardly have a few weeks if any, since I "landed" in April 2014. Residency question would come up if they find out I am a PR. I plan on using my US passport to enter Canada since I am only going there for a few days vacation.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=727&top=4
To maintain your status as a permanent resident, you must live in Canada for at least two years within a five-year period. During this time you must be here physically.