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Entering Canada with an expired PR card - urgent please help.

Rob_TO

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Thank you Rob

Really appreciate the quick response. With regards to applying for the PR card renewal when physically in Canada. We are visiting Aug 3rd - 15th so could apply for the renewal whilst in Canada and provide our families address in Canada where the PR card could be sent to. My concern with that is the IMM 5444 notes your current residential address in Canada. I don't want to put our old address as our travel records have us leaving last year. Should we put our US address? Should we accompany the application with details of our situation?
I'm really not sure if you can put a non-Canadian address for this, or if you need to put in the address you're currently residing in while in Canada even for a short time. If you put a US address, I can see that causing problems but hopefully others can confirm.

I haven't heard of the multiple entry PR TDs, how do you signify that you want to apply for that? Is there a limit to the amount of PR TDs I could apply for? On average how lengthy can the processing time be? I ask as if there is a family emergency in Canada and we need to visit (family is getting older) it would be good to know the level of flexibility I have to accompany my wife.
Again I don't know all the details. Processing times are all over the map, from less than a week to several months. PR TD for people in the US are processed in either New York, LA or I think Washington visa offices. You may want to contact the one you would be using, to ask these kinds of details. I've only read here that people have gotten multi-entry PRTDs, I'm not sure if they were specifically requested or if they were just given like that.
 

pakopite

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Dear forum members,

I would really appreciate you valuable advise on a particular issue that i will potentially face regarding PR renewal

okay here it goes ...

Background Information

- Myself , my wife (principal applicant) and my daughter all landed in Canada in June 2015.

- I stayed there for a month , before i got back to my country without an actual PR card.

- My wife with my daughter stayed back for another month and came back after she got the PR cards for all three of us with an expiry of July 2020

- Ever since that time, neither of us have been back to Canada.

- Now i plan to go there during the summer next year (2018) , so i believe I would be able to fulfill the Residency Obligation before my PR card gets expired in 2020.

- But my wife and my daughter can only come to Canada a year after (2019) during the summer months. Thus only leaving just a year before their PR card gets expired and only half of their residential obligation(RO) days being met.

Queries

Q1. I believe i personally am safe , but am i correct in thinking so ?

Q2. Since my wife and my daughter clearly can not fulfill their residential obligation (RO) when they plan to travel in 2019 (just one year before their cards get expired) , so would they be even allowed to board the flight from our country ?

Q3. If they do manage to board the flight, how would they be treated by the immigration officers once they land in Canada ?

Q4, Would the immigration officer ask them questions regarding them not fulfilling their RO days since their cards get expired in one year and there is no way they can fulfill it now . And why they failed to do it ?

Q5. I have read in these forums that once you present yourself at the border with even an expired PR card , the Immigration officers have to let you in , So that is not my question but the question is whether they would let my wife and daughter in but potentially report them to CIC or whatever it is called now, which could jeopardize their chances of living in Canada ?

Q6. Once my wife and my daughter are inside Canada, they could complete the 740 days rule . but almost half of those days would be on an expired PR card. Is that a problem ?

Q7. Am i missing out on anything major. is there any potential problem that i am not even realizing but could jeopardize our case of living in Canada ?

Would really appreciate if any one out of you esteemed member could answer these initial 7 queries of mine. would be really grateful

Regards
 

Rob_TO

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- Myself , my wife (principal applicant) and my daughter all landed in Canada in June 2015.

- I stayed there for a month , before i got back to my country without an actual PR card.

- My wife with my daughter stayed back for another month and came back after she got the PR cards for all three of us with an expiry of July 2020

- Ever since that time, neither of us have been back to Canada.

- Now i plan to go there during the summer next year (2018) , so i believe I would be able to fulfill the Residency Obligation before my PR card gets expired in 2020.

- But my wife and my daughter can only come to Canada a year after (2019) during the summer months. Thus only leaving just a year before their PR card gets expired and only half of their residential obligation(RO) days being met.
The expiry date on PR card is only for purposes of boarding an airplane to Canada. It's completely irrelevant to determining if you meet RO or not.

If you landed then left Canada in July 2015, you would be in violation of the RO and subject to having your PR status revoked, starting around July 2018 (on the exact date you reach 3 years outside Canada).

If your wife/daughter left Canada Aug 2015, they would be in violation of the RO and subject to having their PR status revoked, starting around Aug 2018.

If you return to Canada while in compliance of RO, you should have no problems with CBSA.

if you return to Canada after violation of RO, then you are allowed entry but CBSA can report you for RO violation. If they do, you would either lose PR status or choose to appeal and would probably lose PR status later on since it doesn't sound like any H&C reasons involved here.

Whether or not reported by CBSA is random and up to the individual CBSA officer encountered.

If you make it into Canada without being reported while in violation of RO, you must remain in Canada 2 straight years without leaving even once to put PR back into compliance.
 
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pakopite

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The expiry date on PR card is only for purposes of boarding an airplane to Canada. It's completely irrelevant to determining if you meet RO or not.

If you landed then left Canada in July 2015, you would be in violation of the RO and subject to having your PR status revoked, starting around July 2018 (on the exact date you reach 3 years outside Canada).

If your wife/daughter left Canada Aug 2015, they would be in violation of the RO and subject to having their PR status revoked, starting around Aug 2018.

If you return to Canada while in compliance of RO, you should have no problems with CBSA.

if you return to Canada after violation of RO, then you are allowed entry but CBSA can report you for RO violation. If they do, you would either lose PR status or choose to appeal and would probably lose PR status later on since it doesn't sound like any H&C reasons involved here.

Whether or not reported by CBSA is random and up to the individual CBSA officer encountered.

If you make it into Canada without being reported while in violation of RO, you must remain in Canada 2 straight years without leaving even once to put PR back into compliance.
 

pakopite

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Hey,

Thankyou so much for such a quick and detailed response.


First off, my wife had to be in our country for her old and really sick parents. she is the only sibling who is with them in our country, the rest are all out of the country. This by the way was the main reason why we have been unable to move to Canada uptill now.

I dont know if that is a valid ground for H & C reasons ???

Also you did mention that, reporting my wife and daughter if they only reach Canada a year before the expiry of their PR card entirely depends on the CBSA officer and is completely random.

But my question is if there is any way you can give me a rough idea as to how many cases do actually get reported . 5 % , 10 % , 50 % etc.

Also keep in mind that she would be telling them of her parents situation( H&C ?). Should she carry medical documents to validate her claim.

is there a chance that then the CBSA officer would not report her since she would be willing to live in canada from there on out ?

Again how likely is the CBSA officer to report her . 5 % ,50 % etc.

Thanking in advance brother
 

Rob_TO

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But my question is if there is any way you can give me a rough idea as to how many cases do actually get reported . 5 % , 10 % , 50 % etc.
I have no idea, as no real stats are kept on this kind of thing. All I know is that if you enter while PR card is still valid, you have better chance to not be reported.

Also keep in mind that she would be telling them of her parents situation( H&C ?). Should she carry medical documents to validate her claim.
Yes, if claiming H&C reason for not meeting RO, having as much documented proof of this (doctors/specialist notes, hospital receipts, etc etc) is essential.

But if she is caring for sick parents, how can she commit to return in 2019 at a specific time? Does she no longer need to care for them after that?

Keep in mind when she returns to Canada and if not reported, she will not be able to leave Canada for 2 straight years, else risk being reported upon next entry.

Whether a CBSA officer reports you or not is entirely at their personal discretion and personality, there is no % chance anyone can apply to it.

As long as you meet your own RO obligation, then in case your wife/daughter are reported and lose their own PR status in the future you can always just sponsor them for PR againl
 
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pakopite

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Hey,

Thanks once again.

Ok, as far as her committing to return even in 2019 is concerned, it is just that we do definitely want to move to Canada but she is pushing it as much as she can for her parents sake and then the siblings will decide as to the future course of action when she eventually leaves.

Also, there are just a few more queries now, hopefully for now these would be it. and i really appreciate you taking out time to answer them

Q1, When my wife and daughter initially landed they stayed there for close to two months. landed end of may and left end of july .Also keep in mind the PR card was issued with the date middle of August. So would these 50 odd days count in the RO ?

Q2, considering the above information, when exactly in your estimate would she start being in violation of the RO days ?

Q3, If she does come in summer of 2019 (one year till the expiry) is it better if i ask them to enter from US . like me driving across to US in a car and getting them back. Is the CBSA thing a little lenient over there . Less chances of being reported ?

Q4, once inside Canada without being reported , if they are spending the two consecutive years with one of them being when the period expired. Is there any other way they can be reported ?

Again i really appreciate your valuable input over this.

Thanking in advance :)
 

Rob_TO

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Hey,

Thanks once again.

Ok, as far as her committing to return even in 2019 is concerned, it is just that we do definitely want to move to Canada but she is pushing it as much as she can for her parents sake and then the siblings will decide as to the future course of action when she eventually leaves.

Also, there are just a few more queries now, hopefully for now these would be it. and i really appreciate you taking out time to answer them

Q1, When my wife and daughter initially landed they stayed there for close to two months. landed end of may and left end of july .Also keep in mind the PR card was issued with the date middle of August. So would these 50 odd days count in the RO ?

Q2, considering the above information, when exactly in your estimate would she start being in violation of the RO days ?

Q3, If she does come in summer of 2019 (one year till the expiry) is it better if i ask them to enter from US . like me driving across to US in a car and getting them back. Is the CBSA thing a little lenient over there . Less chances of being reported ?

Q4, once inside Canada without being reported , if they are spending the two consecutive years with one of them being when the period expired. Is there any other way they can be reported ?

Again i really appreciate your valuable input over this.

Thanking in advance :)
1 - It's a rolling 5 years period. So on the date you do the calculation, you go back 5 years or until you landed as PR.

2 - Already answered above "If your wife/daughter left Canada Aug 2015, they would be in violation of the RO and subject to having their PR status revoked, starting around Aug 2018."

3 - No difference, it's up to CBSA officer

4 - Only if they leave/re-enter Canada, or apply to IRCC for anything (like PR renewal, sponsoring family member, etc)
 
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pakopite

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Thakyou Rob_TO , you are a superstar :)
 

dpenabill

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Some observations about cutting-it-close:

[The OP's questions have been well-answered above. This post is more of an addendum, offering a small clarification for PRs generally (not those with exceptions, like those abroad accompanying a citizen spouse), and some observations about calculating days for a PR who is cutting-it-close. I offer this as a caution because there are so many reports from PRs who cut-it-close and end up either suffering the travails of losing PR status or feeling trapped in Canada while a PR card application wallows in Secondary Review.]

Small clarification: Regardless the date one became a PR, if a PR is absent from Canada for 1095 consecutive days (three years), the PR is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, and obviously so. Thus, for example, if a PR leaves Canada August 3, 2015, and does not return to Canada by August 4, 2018, the PR is in breach of the PR RO, NO calculation of days required. In this scenario the breach is obvious on its face. Date of landing is not relevant. Number of days in Canada previously are not relevant (other than for H&C assessment).


Cutting-it-close: Beyond that, however, that does NOT mean returning by, say, July 29, 2018, is for-sure safe. There is always some RISK involved if a PR is cutting-it-close. If the PR is cutting-it-close the PR may be challenged about how many days the PR was in Canada, and the burden of proof is on the PR, and this burden includes establishing the number of days in Canada as well as when.

In particular, for a PR who landed less than five years ago (a new PR so to say), the break-point (breach-threshold) is 1095 days of absence since landing. For the vast, vast majority of new PRs traveling back to Canada, they have not been abroad anywhere near a thousand days. The PoE officers will generally waive them through, no questions at all pertaining to compliance with the PR RO.

Similarly, if it has been less than three years since the PR landed, it is obvious on its face that the PR cannot possibly be in breach of the PR RO. There is no way the PR could have been, yet, absent for 1095 days since landing. (Note, here too however, for those cutting-it-close there have been many reports about being cautioned or admonished when returning to Canada, which is to put the PR on notice.)

Once three years have elapsed since the date a PR landed, however, multi-year absences are bound to draw attention and elevated scrutiny when the PR arrives at the PoE to enter Canada. And, again, if the absence has been for three years, no calculation of days in Canada is necessary, the PR is clearly in breach of the PR RO.

But beating it back to Canada just under-the-wire, so to say, can also be risky.

If, for example, a PR landed May 27, 2015 and stayed in Canada until leaving August 3, 2015, and thus spent 64 days in Canada, the PR will be in compliance with the PR RO so long as the PR returns by August 3rd or so. BUT that may depend on convincing a questioning (perhaps even skeptical) officer that the PR was actually present for those 64 days back in 2015. In this regard, remember that an entry stamp to a country other than Canada does not conclusively prove when an individual exited Canada (even though in fact that day, or the day before, was when the individual exited Canada) unless there is something to show the individual just came from Canada.

Moreover, beating it back to Canada just under-the-wire leaves no leeway at all for the next two years, no leeway for family emergencies, no leeway for business or holiday travel abroad, no leeway to return to home country to settle this or that outstanding affair. And, practically this can mean up to three years or so since many PRs in this situation tend to have their PR card renewal application referred to Secondary Review, delaying when they get a replacement PR card, and they are reluctant to travel abroad having to depend on a making a successful application for a PR Travel Document to get back to Canada.
 
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pakopite

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dpenabill mate, This was so detailed and helpful . I am really glad that i posted in this forum and people like yourself and Rob_TO were kind enough to answer my questions in such detail.

This has completely changed how i would approach my re-entry into Canada now. I would also humbly suggest that that one of the forum moderators can tag the above post by dpenabill as a pinned post at the top of this thread for everyone's benefit.

But one thing that i have always wondered . Why don't they put an exit stamp on people's passport leaving Canada. Would'nt that save everyone so much of hassle and confusion ???

Like dpenabill mentioned, an entry stamp into another country immediately after flying from Canada is not a conclusive proof of him leaving Canada on a said date . so why not just stamp it exit ?

other than that , thankyou so much guys
 

spyfy

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But one thing that i have always wondered . Why don't they put an exit stamp on people's passport leaving Canada. Would'nt that save everyone so much of hassle and confusion ???
They would have to build the infrastructure to allow such stamps. For example, EU countries have the infrastructure for exit controls at airports. But if Canada were to introduce them now, basically all Canadian airports that handle international flights would have to be reorganized. For example, at the moment, flights from Canada to Europe and flights from Canada to Canada can be handled in the same waiting area/the same gates. If they introduced exit stamps now, domestic and international passengers would have to be separated after the exit controls.
 

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Some observations about cutting-it-close:

[
In this regard, remember that an entry stamp to a country other than Canada does not conclusively prove when an individual exited Canada (even though in fact that day, or the day before, was when the individual exited Canada) unless there is something to show the individual just came from Canada.
.
I am wondering if this a generic statement. When a person crosses in U.S. from Canada by road or at any of the pre-clearance airport in Canada, isn't is a given that the person was in Canada? I can understand this reasoning when person travels directly to another country not via U.S. Sorry, I am asking this because, I am trying to understand if this how IRCC also interpret it?
 

dpenabill

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In this regard, remember that an entry stamp to a country other than Canada does not conclusively prove when an individual exited Canada (even though in fact that day, or the day before, was when the individual exited Canada) unless there is something to show the individual just came from Canada.

I am wondering if this a generic statement. When a person crosses in U.S. from Canada by road or at any of the pre-clearance airport in Canada, isn't is a given that the person was in Canada? I can understand this reasoning when person travels directly to another country not via U.S. Sorry, I am asking this because, I am trying to understand if this how IRCC also interpret it?
A Canadian PR's entry into the U.S. when exiting Canada is captured and stored by U.S. authorities, and ordinarily this is a record which CBSA and IRCC can either directly access, or at least readily access with minimal effort (which is soon to become true even for Canadian citizens), through a shared data program between the countries. This is effectively a record of exiting Canada. U.S. likewise utilizes entries into Canada from the U.S. as a record of exits from the U.S. No passport stamp necessary or even involved.

Otherwise, the observation I made refers to the FACT that a passport stamp for an entry into another country typically does NOT show anything about where the traveler was prior to arrival in that country, let alone prove which country the PR left or when. This is not about how a CBSA or IRCC officer will interpret any particular stamp in a PR's passport. This is not about government policy. It is about the fact that an entry stamp does NOT so much as indicate, let alone purport to show, let alone prove, which country the traveler came from. Let alone the date the PR left Canada.

Nonetheless, many PRs tend to rely on entry stamps in other countries to document the date they left Canada.

This does not ignore the role such entry stamps may have as evidence of travel dates. This alludes to a key part of my observation, which in effect distinguishes what might be inferred from the evidence of such a stamp, versus the clear fact that an entry stamp does "NOT conclusively prove" when an individual left Canada.

In terms of weighing what evidence will be sufficient to prove when an applicant left Canada, that involves considering other information and evidence, weighing this or that particular part in context with all the other information. Thus, while an entry stamp does not prove the date of exit from Canada, it is nonetheless evidence which in combination with other evidence may tend to document and ultimately prove the date of exit from Canada.

It is important, for those on-the-cusp or cutting-it-close, those who have a higher risk for elevated scrutiny and facing a potentially skeptical officer, to be aware that what almost always suffices in the easy case might not necessarily be enough in a close case, in a tougher case.

In any event, of course IRCC and CBSA will (should) generally conclude that what a stamp shows is true (at least in the absence of fraud or such). But typically the entry stamp shows no more than entry into that country. Any inferences beyond that will necessarily depend on a lot of other information.



NOTE: recent reports suggest that if a PoE officer in Secondary is concerned about a PR's admissibility, relative to compliance with the PR RO, these days it appears likely the PR/traveler will be asked to complete a Residency Questionnaire, which means the PR will provide answers in writing about address and work history as well as travel dates, while there in the PoE. It is not clear to what extent the PR is then questioned about the details in the questionnaire. In this scenario, a bare date of exit based on an entry stamp into another country, without other corroborating information, is at risk for being questioned or even outright challenged. And of course even assuming the PR left Canada on that date, that does not necessarily document how long the PR was in Canada before that. (See other discussions about when or why a PR might not get the benefit of an inference he or she was in Canada from the last reported date of entry into Canada until the next reported date of exit.)

PRs who have been abroad for longer than a year (perhaps longer for a PR within the first three years of landing), and the longer the more so, should be prepared to provide detailed information to corroborate their assertions about time in Canada, in case they are subject to a Residency Questionnaire upon their next arrival in Canada. Something to show their address or employment when they were in Canada.
 

pakopite

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great discussion guys.

dpenabill bro, one other thing which i am wondering is how many of these people do you know personally who have been flagged/reported/scrutinized while 'cutting-it-close' ?

because in this thread alone we have numerous instances of people travelling in from US on an expired PR card and entering Canada without even being reported.

So the impression i get is that the CBSA people are generally pretty lenient. And only if you are really unlucky would you even get reported and that too on an expired PR card .

I know what the rules say but , judging by this thread/forum i get the feeling that in reality a lot of people they just re-enter Canada without being reported regardless of their RO