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Am I Canadian puzzle...

RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
Hi everyone - any help on my puzzle below would be greatly appreciated as I'm reluctant to fill in all the paperwork and pay a proof of citizenship fee if this isn't going to be successful!

If I go to the 'Am I Canadian' quiz it asks me... "When my parent was born or adopted, my grandparent was a Canadian citizen (or a British subject, born or naturalized in Canada before 1947) who was employed outside Canada as a Crown servant." The answer to this yes and the quiz tells me that I am most likely a Canadian citizen.

However, there is a subtle difference in the wording on the website which states exceptions to the first generation limit as the following... "At the time of your Canadian parent’s birth or adoption, your Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada: in the Canadian Armed Forces." All of it is true apart from the part I have underlined above - my parent was not Canadian. Or was he?

My Dad never knew his father. We knew his father (my grandparent) was in the Canadian Army and based in the UK during the war when my Dad was born - we had all been told he died near the end of the war. We'd never been able to tie my Dad's birth certificate into any specific Army records though as the name didn't match and when my Dad was diagnosed with Cancer he stepped up the search. We found that actually he went by his middle name rather than his first name and had not died in the war - my grandparent had lived until about 1990 in Canada. Unfortunately my Dad then passed away but I've recently continued the search and found out that my Dad had three half brothers over in Canada and I now have numerous cousins.

Anyway, back to the question... my Dad was never a Canadian citizen, although his father certainly was and I now have his Army records to prove that. Does this make my Dad eligible to become a Canadian citizen? If he was alive, I assume so, but after his death I assume not, and therefore does mean I can or can't qualify to become Canadian citizen under both the second and third paragraphs above? Or does the fact that my Dad never realised he was able to become a Canadian citizen while he was alive mean that I am now unable to become one myself as technically my Dad was not a Canadian citizen?

I realise that it's quite a niche puzzle so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
 

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Take my answer with a grain of salt and as always, talking to a lawyer is the best way to get a definite answer to your case.

If you grandfather was born in Canada, then you dad was technically a canadian citizen. If you were born while your dad was in the Canadian army serving abroad, then you are very likely a canadian citizen as well.
 

itsmyid

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Jul 26, 2012
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My understanding of this issue is: it doesn't matter if your father realized he was a Canadian or not, citizenship by descendent does not carry through second generation. Your father would be eligible but not you
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
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Take my answer with a grain of salt and as always, talking to a lawyer is the best way to get a definite answer to your case.

If you grandfather was born in Canada, then you dad was technically a canadian citizen. If you were born while your dad was in the Canadian army serving abroad, then you are very likely a canadian citizen as well.
Take my answer with a grain of salt and as always, talking to a lawyer is the best way to get a definite answer to your case.

If you grandfather was born in Canada, then you dad was technically a canadian citizen. If you were born while your dad was in the Canadian army serving abroad, then you are very likely a canadian citizen as well.
He mentioned his father 'was never a Canadian citizen' - so it's safe to assume he never served in Canadian army
 

RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
My understanding of this issue is: it doesn't matter if your father realized he was a Canadian or not, citizenship by descendent does not carry through second generation. Your father would be eligible but not you
Thanks
He mentioned his father 'was never a Canadian citizen' - so it's safe to assume he never served in Canadian army
Thanks all - correct - it was my grandfather who was Canadian and served in the Canadian Army. My father died before we tracked all the details down and therefore never became a Canadian citizen.
 

RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
My understanding of this issue is: it doesn't matter if your father realized he was a Canadian or not, citizenship by descendent does not carry through second generation. Your father would be eligible but not you
Thanks but one of the exceptions to the first generation limit is noted in my third paragraph of the OP. My debate is whether it's complicated by the fact my Dad was not a Canadian Citizen and can no longer become one as he has now passed away.
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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Hi everyone - any help on my puzzle below would be greatly appreciated as I'm reluctant to fill in all the paperwork and pay a proof of citizenship fee if this isn't going to be successful!

If I go to the 'Am I Canadian' quiz it asks me... "When my parent was born or adopted, my grandparent was a Canadian citizen (or a British subject, born or naturalized in Canada before 1947) who was employed outside Canada as a Crown servant." The answer to this yes and the quiz tells me that I am most likely a Canadian citizen.

However, there is a subtle difference in the wording on the website which states exceptions to the first generation limit as the following... "At the time of your Canadian parent’s birth or adoption, your Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada: in the Canadian Armed Forces." All of it is true apart from the part I have underlined above - my parent was not Canadian. Or was he?

My Dad never knew his father. We knew his father (my grandparent) was in the Canadian Army and based in the UK during the war when my Dad was born - we had all been told he died near the end of the war. We'd never been able to tie my Dad's birth certificate into any specific Army records though as the name didn't match and when my Dad was diagnosed with Cancer he stepped up the search. We found that actually he went by his middle name rather than his first name and had not died in the war - my grandparent had lived until about 1990 in Canada. Unfortunately my Dad then passed away but I've recently continued the search and found out that my Dad had three half brothers over in Canada and I now have numerous cousins.

Anyway, back to the question... my Dad was never a Canadian citizen, although his father certainly was and I now have his Army records to prove that. Does this make my Dad eligible to become a Canadian citizen? If he was alive, I assume so, but after his death I assume not, and therefore does mean I can or can't qualify to become Canadian citizen under both the second and third paragraphs above? Or does the fact that my Dad never realised he was able to become a Canadian citizen while he was alive mean that I am now unable to become one myself as technically my Dad was not a Canadian citizen?

I realise that it's quite a niche puzzle so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
I believe that you likely ARE a Canadian citizen, because your father was (or would have been if he had been living) a Canadian citizen as of 2009, and his father was in Crown service when your father was born.

However, the fact that your grandfather's name as listed on your father's birth certificate differs from his legal name, could be a problem. That's if you don't have a marriage certificate (I'm guessing that your grandparents weren't married) tying your grandfather's name to your grandmother's.

So, I would certainly suggest that you apply for proof of citizenship and see what happens.
 

RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
I believe that you likely ARE a Canadian citizen, because your father was (or would have been if he had been living) a Canadian citizen as of 2009, and his father was in Crown service when your father was born.

However, the fact that your grandfather's name as listed on your father's birth certificate differs from his legal name, could be a problem. That's if you don't have a marriage certificate (I'm guessing that your grandparents weren't married) tying your grandfather's name to your grandmother's.

So, I would certainly suggest that you apply for proof of citizenship and see what happens.
Many thanks for the response. Although my Grandfathers first and middle names are the wrong way round on my Dads birth certificate, the birth certificate does clearly include my Grandfathers Army number and Corps details. I have all of his service notes that tie in with this so the evidence is very conclusive with regards to the link. It's a tricky one and but I think the application could be worth a shot - I'm enthused by the fact you think my Dad not becoming a citizen should not be an issue because that was my main concern.
Cheers
 

links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
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Many thanks for the response. Although my Grandfathers first and middle names are the wrong way round on my Dads birth certificate, the birth certificate does clearly include my Grandfathers Army number and Corps details. I have all of his service notes that tie in with this so the evidence is very conclusive with regards to the link. It's a tricky one and but I think the application could be worth a shot - I'm enthused by the fact you think my Dad not becoming a citizen should not be an issue because that was my main concern.
Cheers
Yeah, you probably are Canadian as long as the details as you have reported them are correct. The "Canadian Parent" part you refer to likely means "Canadian" as of the operation of subsequent amendments to the Citizenship Act--regardless of whether or not your dad actually held Canadian citizenship while he was alive.
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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Many thanks for the response. Although my Grandfathers first and middle names are the wrong way round on my Dads birth certificate, the birth certificate does clearly include my Grandfathers Army number and Corps details. I have all of his service notes that tie in with this so the evidence is very conclusive with regards to the link. It's a tricky one and but I think the application could be worth a shot - I'm enthused by the fact you think my Dad not becoming a citizen should not be an issue because that was my main concern.
Cheers
That's great that the birth certificate includes the service number and other details! That should make things quite clear.

As to your concern that your father died before becoming Canadian, this is covered in the citizenship legislation:

http://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/AnnualStatutes/2014_22/FullText.html

"A person who would not become a citizen...for the sole reason that, on the coming into force of this subsection, his or her parent  —  referred to in one of those paragraphs  —  is deceased, is a citizen...if that parent, but for his or her death, would have been a citizen..."

If you don't have it already, you will need to get your grandfather's birth certificate, which (especially if he was born in Ontario) may involve some degree of difficulty.
 
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RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
That's great that the birth certificate includes the service number and other details! That should make things quite clear.

As to your concern that your father died before becoming Canadian, this is covered in the citizenship legislation:

http://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/AnnualStatutes/2014_22/FullText.html

"A person who would not become a citizen...for the sole reason that, on the coming into force of this subsection, his or her parent  —  referred to in one of those paragraphs  —  is deceased, is a citizen...if that parent, but for his or her death, would have been a citizen..."

If you don't have it already, you will need to get your grandfather's birth certificate, which (especially if he was born in Ontario) may involve some degree of difficulty.
Many thanks for pointing me to the legislation - really useful and very interesting. So it sounds like I'm set to make the application, aside from having my grandfather's birthday certificate. I have a copy of his death certificate from the funeral directors, I have copies of his Army records from the Library and Archives Canada, and I have him listed as the father on my own father's birth certificate so I was hopeful that might be enough in terms of evidence to piece it all together. I'll start work now on trying to find a birth certificate for my grandfather - I have a date of birth and a date of death so I'll start hitting Google and see what I can find! Any tips would be appreciated!
 

RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
Many thanks for pointing me to the legislation - really useful and very interesting. So it sounds like I'm set to make the application, aside from having my grandfather's birthday certificate. I have a copy of his death certificate from the funeral directors, I have copies of his Army records from the Library and Archives Canada, and I have him listed as the father on my own father's birth certificate so I was hopeful that might be enough in terms of evidence to piece it all together. I'll start work now on trying to find a birth certificate for my grandfather - I have a date of birth and a date of death so I'll start hitting Google and see what I can find! Any tips would be appreciated!
Birth certificate of Grandfather just located - many thanks!
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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Birth certificate of Grandfather just located - many thanks!
With regard to certificates, they need to be originals that you get from the relevant government offices, or certified copies of the originals. See document checklist here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/citizen/CIT0014E-2.pdf

Also, see here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/CIT0001ETOC.asp, which explains how to prove Crown service and who can certify documents. The Canadian High Commission may also be willing to certify your certificates. Canadian consulates in the USA do so.
 
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RossMac

Newbie
Aug 23, 2017
9
2
With regard to certificates, they need to be originals that you get from the relevant government offices, or certified copies of the originals. See document checklist here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/citizen/CIT0014E-2.pdf
I was going to ask about this point actually so thanks for raising it. I've found a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate from 1912 on Ancestry and have downloaded it in PDF format. Does anyone have any idea how I could get a certified version of the Toronto document because having tried a few websites, anything pre 1913 appears confusing.
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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I was going to ask about this point actually so thanks for raising it. I've found a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate from 1912 on Ancestry and have downloaded it in PDF format. Does anyone have any idea how I could get a certified version of the Toronto document because having tried a few websites, anything pre 1913 appears confusing.
For a birth that occurred before 1917, you will have to turn to the Archives of Ontario. In addition, you will need to have the record certified. The information is here: http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/microfilm/vsfaq.aspx#legal