PR Obligation Met or Not

[PRWait10]

Dear Members / Experts　

I would really appreciate if you can provide your expert opinion on my case. 　

I landed in Canada on work permit on 16 March 2012, when I completed period of more than a year with the Company, I applied for immigration under Canadian Experience Class. I received my Permanent Resident Card in the year 2014, which shows as follows;　

PR since: 12_07_2014　
Expiry: 24_11_2019　

I flew to middle east on 22 November 2014 to similar Company counter part, (Please note the experience out side Canada will not be counted towards citizenship as Company is not a Canadian Company)　

In Summary, I stayed in Canada from 16-3-2012 to 11-7- 2014, i.e. 847 days on work permit afterwards as a permanent resident from 12-07-2014 to 22-11-2014 i.e. 133 days. 　

Please note although I stayed on work permit in the above mentioned dates, but not all the time I was employed by the Company, I was redundant for some time. 　

Just for an overall picture, my wife was accompanying me, and with in the duration of stay in Canada, I had two babies, who automatically got Canadian citizenship.
　

So in the above scenario, my questions are; 　

- how much period would have been counted towards citizenship / PR obligation,　

- maximum how long I can stay outside Canada in above situation, e.g. month and year 　

- specifically as explained above, considering three years new law, will my period of stay in Canada on work permit from 16-3-2012 to 11-7- 2014 will be counted towards citizenship or PR residential requirement in the above scenario. 　

- period outside Canada will not be counted, even if my kids are Canadian as they are minor, Correct?　

I am currently with the same counterpart in middle east and planning to move to Canada without jeopardising 2 years residential requirement out of 5 years. I just heard about this new law enacted for 3 years rule, when I was leaving Canada 4 year rule was in practice.　

Any further suggestions are welcome to keep PR alive, like a justification to authorities, if I decide to stay out side Canada, and move back in 2019 before expiry, will they renew it, by explaining them that I had financial obligation that's why had to stay on Job etc.　

God bless you all. 　

Thanks very much 　

 

[scylla]

Time spent outside of Canada can only be counted towards PR if you were working with a company in Canada and were then relocated to Canada by that company and then you eventually moved back to Canada. Based on the information you've provided, it doesn't sound like any of your time spent outside of Canada will count towards PR.

The fact you have Canadian citizen children doesn't help you in any way.

Financial obligations aren't accepted as H&C reasons for failing to meet the residency requirement.

If you want to guarantee you can retain your PR status, you'll need to return to Canada before you've been outside of Canada for three years.

 

[PRWait10]

Thanks very much Scylla for the prompt response,

One clarification, period resided on work permit as explained above, will be counted towards citizenshipship,

 

[scylla]

No - it won't be counted towards citizenship. If it's counted, it will only be counted towards maintaining your PR status. For citizenship, you need to physically live in Canada.

 

[dpenabill]

I stayed in Canada from 16-3-2012 to 11-7- 2014, i.e. 847 days on work permit afterwards as a permanent resident from 12-07-2014 to 22-11-2014 i.e. 133 days.

. . . will my period of stay in Canada on work permit from 16-3-2012 to 11-7- 2014 will be counted towards citizenship or PR residential requirement in the above scenario.

One clarification, period resided on work permit as explained above, will be counted towards citizenshipship,

Clarification about counting time toward citizenship requirements:

The bottom-line is that you do not have enough time in Canada to qualify under the new rules in time for your pre-PR days to count. If you returned to Canada tomorrow, the soonest you could qualify would be sometime in 2020 and by then any time in Canada in 2014 or before will be outside the five years that count.

The short explanation: Since you have been outside Canada for two years plus, you will need to start over in terms of building credit toward qualifying for citizenship. The earliest practical date you could qualify for citizenship will be at least three years from the date you return to Canada, and longer if you travel outside Canada during that time.

Longer Explanation:

In general, once the new 3/5 rule takes effect and pre-PR days in Canada are allowed credit, time in Canada on a work permit within the five years preceding the date the application is made will count.

Thus, your time in Canada while on a work permit (prior to landing in 2014) could possibly be counted toward meeting the citizenship physical presence requirements, BUT only if you are eligible and able to apply within the time frame those days would still be relevant, still within five years. Given how much you have been outside Canada in the meantime, this is NOT possible.

Sidenote: The new 3/5 rules are not in effect yet, and will not be in effect until September at the earliest, November more likely (government has only said it will be in the "fall").

When the 3/5 rules take effect, it takes three years within the five relevant years (the five years immediately preceding date of application) to meet the requirement. Days on work permit would only count as half-days. And again, only those days within the preceding five years would count.

Thus, even though you could count pre-PR days on work permit, even if you returned to Canada tomorrow it will be sometime in 2020 before you approach meeting the 3/5 rule. By then all your days on a work permit will be more than five years past, outside the relevant five years.

Moreover, even your days in Canada in 2014 after becoming a PR will not count. Days more than five years past will not count. Again, since you have been outside Canada more than two years, you will need to essentially start over, so it will take three years after you return at the very minimum (longer if you travel abroad after returning to Canada).




Observations about compliance with PR RO:

Time in Canada prior to becoming a PR does not count toward compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

But that does not mean much if anything, since a new PR gets credit for what days are left in the first five years. This in effect has the same result as getting credit for time prior to landing (even for new PRs who were not in Canada prior to landing).

In other words, a PR within the first five years can be outside Canada for up to 1094 days and still be in compliance with the PR RO.

As of the fifth year anniversary, PR RO compliance is based on meeting the 730 days in the preceding 5 years rule.


Calculating PR RO compliance:

If you were in Canada every day between July 12, 2014 (date of landing) and November 22, 2014, the very latest you can wait to return to Canada is November 21 this year, November 21, 2017, in order to avoid being in breach of the PR RO as a matter of law. And that would be cutting it all-too close, and you could be required to present documentation proving all those days present back in 2014.

If, as you say, you are "planning to move to Canada without jeopardising 2 years residential requirement out of 5 years," your plan should be to return to Canada SOON. The closer you wait to November the more you will be jeopardizing your status. There are more than a few IAD cases with sad stories, sad outcomes, in situations very much like yours. Cutting it close is risky.

Moreover, by cutting it this close you have minimized the extent to which you would be able to travel outside Canada after your return. Note, for example, that if you do not return to Canada until November 1st, the most you would be able to travel outside Canada, without being in breach of the PR RO, is a mere 20 days total for the next two years. Not much leeway for dealing with things like family emergencies let alone holidays.

If you really do not want to jeopardize your PR status, best to be returning to Canada sooner rather than later.

 

[Rob_TO]

Dear Members / Experts　

I would really appreciate if you can provide your expert opinion on my case. 　

I landed in Canada on work permit on 16 March 2012, when I completed period of more than a year with the Company, I applied for immigration under Canadian Experience Class. I received my Permanent Resident Card in the year 2014, which shows as follows;　

PR since: 12_07_2014　
Expiry: 24_11_2019　

I flew to middle east on 22 November 2014 to similar Company counter part, (Please note the experience out side Canada will not be counted towards citizenship as Company is not a Canadian Company)　

In Summary, I stayed in Canada from 16-3-2012 to 11-7- 2014, i.e. 847 days on work permit afterwards as a permanent resident from 12-07-2014 to 22-11-2014 i.e. 133 days. 　

Note the expiry date on your PR card is irrelevant for determining if you meet the Residency Obligation or not. If you left Canada Nov 22 and haven't returned since, you better make sure you return well before Nov 22, 2017. If you haven't returned by then you'll be in violation of the RO and could see yourself reported upon entry by CBSA and process started to revoke your PR status, no matter the expiry date on your card.

Just for an overall picture, my wife was accompanying me, and with in the duration of stay in Canada, I had two babies, who automatically got Canadian citizenship.

Is your wife a PR or Canadian citizen? If she's a PR, she will need to meet same RO and will be in same situation.

If she's a citizen, then actually any time you spend outside Canada living with her will count toward your RO so you would be able to stay indefinitely and still always meet the RO.

Regarding citizenship, NONE of your time spent before getting PR status will count to your citizenship eligibility. There is only a 5 year window to look at to see if you have 3 years of residency here. Time spent before becoming a PR, only counts for 1/2 time to citizenship qualifying. So since you've been gone now almost 3 years, the time spent on work permit is now irrelevant and you'll basically need to live in Canada 3 full years after returning to qualify for citizenship.
　

 

[PRWait10]

No - it won't be counted towards citizenship. If it's counted, it will only be counted towards maintaining your PR status. For citizenship, you need to physically live in Canada.

Thanks for the input, you mentioned 'if its counted' means its not a set rule rather depends on individual case. Right?

 

[PRWait10]

Clarification about counting time toward citizenship requirements:

The bottom-line is that you do not have enough time in Canada to qualify under the new rules in time for your pre-PR days to count. If you returned to Canada tomorrow, the soonest you could qualify would be sometime in 2020 and by then any time in Canada in 2014 or before will be outside the five years that count.

The short explanation: Since you have been outside Canada for two years plus, you will need to start over in terms of building credit toward qualifying for citizenship. The earliest practical date you could qualify for citizenship will be at least three years from the date you return to Canada, and longer if you travel outside Canada during that time.

Longer Explanation:

In general, once the new 3/5 rule takes effect and pre-PR days in Canada are allowed credit, time in Canada on a work permit within the five years preceding the date the application is made will count.

Thus, your time in Canada while on a work permit (prior to landing in 2014) could possibly be counted toward meeting the citizenship physical presence requirements, BUT only if you are eligible and able to apply within the time frame those days would still be relevant, still within five years. Given how much you have been outside Canada in the meantime, this is NOT possible.

Sidenote: The new 3/5 rules are not in effect yet, and will not be in effect until September at the earliest, November more likely (government has only said it will be in the "fall").

When the 3/5 rules take effect, it takes three years within the five relevant years (the five years immediately preceding date of application) to meet the requirement. Days on work permit would only count as half-days. And again, only those days within the preceding five years would count.

Thus, even though you could count pre-PR days on work permit, even if you returned to Canada tomorrow it will be sometime in 2020 before you approach meeting the 3/5 rule. By then all your days on a work permit will be more than five years past, outside the relevant five years.

Moreover, even your days in Canada in 2014 after becoming a PR will not count. Days more than five years past will not count. Again, since you have been outside Canada more than two years, you will need to essentially start over, so it will take three years after you return at the very minimum (longer if you travel abroad after returning to Canada).




Observations about compliance with PR RO:

Time in Canada prior to becoming a PR does not count toward compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

But that does not mean much if anything, since a new PR gets credit for what days are left in the first five years. This in effect has the same result as getting credit for time prior to landing (even for new PRs who were not in Canada prior to landing).

In other words, a PR within the first five years can be outside Canada for up to 1094 days and still be in compliance with the PR RO.

As of the fifth year anniversary, PR RO compliance is based on meeting the 730 days in the preceding 5 years rule.


Calculating PR RO compliance:

If you were in Canada every day between July 12, 2014 (date of landing) and November 22, 2014, the very latest you can wait to return to Canada is November 21 this year, November 21, 2017, in order to avoid being in breach of the PR RO as a matter of law. And that would be cutting it all-too close, and you could be required to present documentation proving all those days present back in 2014.

If, as you say, you are "planning to move to Canada without jeopardising 2 years residential requirement out of 5 years," your plan should be to return to Canada SOON. The closer you wait to November the more you will be jeopardizing your status. There are more than a few IAD cases with sad stories, sad outcomes, in situations very much like yours. Cutting it close is risky.

Moreover, by cutting it this close you have minimized the extent to which you would be able to travel outside Canada after your return. Note, for example, that if you do not return to Canada until November 1st, the most you would be able to travel outside Canada, without being in breach of the PR RO, is a mere 20 days total for the next two years. Not much leeway for dealing with things like family emergencies let alone holidays.

If you really do not want to jeopardize your PR status, best to be returning to Canada sooner rather than later.

Thanks for such a detailed response Rob_TO, really appreciate it. I am planning to act accordingly. One clarification as you mentioned "the very latest you can wait to return to Canada is November 21 this year, November 21, 2017, in order to avoid being in breach of the PR RO as a matter of law". I was calculating it like this, I resided as permanent resident already from July 12, 2014 to November 22, 2014 i.e. 133 days, so the reamaining period I have to cover on PR from two years is 730 days - 133 days = 597 days or 1.6 years to meet the reuirement of two years out of 5 years, by assumtion of livinig straight on such period in Canada. If I work back from expiry date to get count more 597 days in Canada and to renew the same with valid justification that I have spent 2 years with in PR duration period, with neck to neck sitauation it comes to around April 6, 2018. As PR expiry date is Novermber 24, 2019. Can you please comment on this whether I am doing right or wrong calculation. Also let me know if you don't get my calculation. Thanks very much

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Thanks for such a detailed response Rob_TO, really appreciate it. I am planning to act accordingly. One clarification as you mentioned "the very latest you can wait to return to Canada is November 21 this year, November 21, 2017, in order to avoid being in breach of the PR RO as a matter of law". I was calculating it like this, I resided as permanent resident already from July 12, 2014 to November 22, 2014 i.e. 133 days, so the reamaining period I have to cover on PR from two years is 730 days - 133 days = 597 days or 1.6 years to meet the reuirement of two years out of 5 years, by assumtion of livinig straight on such period in Canada. If I work back from expiry date to get count more 597 days in Canada and to renew the same with valid justification that I have spent 2 years with in PR duration period, with neck to neck sitauation it comes to around April 6, 2018. As PR expiry date is Novermber 24, 2019. Can you please comment on this whether I am doing right or wrong calculation. Also let me know if you don't get my calculation. Thanks very much

You are incorrect and are making it incredibly complicated. As you have already been told, the expiry date of your PR card is irrelevant. All that matters is the date that you landed.

As you landed July 12th, 2014, you must spend 730 days in Canada by July 12th, 2019 in order to meet the RO.

 

[Rob_TO]

Thanks for the input, you mentioned 'if its counted' means its not a set rule rather depends on individual case. Right?

No. It follows strict rules. In your case your time spent under a work permit living in Canada is completely irrelevant now so won't count towards PR residency obligation, nor for citizenship, since it happened too long ago.

Thanks for such a detailed response Rob_TO, really appreciate it. I am planning to act accordingly. One clarification as you mentioned "the very latest you can wait to return to Canada is November 21 this year, November 21, 2017, in order to avoid being in breach of the PR RO as a matter of law". I was calculating it like this, I resided as permanent resident already from July 12, 2014 to November 22, 2014 i.e. 133 days, so the reamaining period I have to cover on PR from two years is 730 days - 133 days = 597 days or 1.6 years to meet the reuirement of two years out of 5 years, by assumtion of livinig straight on such period in Canada. If I work back from expiry date to get count more 597 days in Canada and to renew the same with valid justification that I have spent 2 years with in PR duration period, with neck to neck sitauation it comes to around April 6, 2018. As PR expiry date is Novermber 24, 2019. Can you please comment on this whether I am doing right or wrong calculation. Also let me know if you don't get my calculation. Thanks very much

No you are wrong. As mentioned several times, the expiry date on your PR card is irrelevant.

If what I posted above is correct, you will be in violation of the RO starting on Nov 22, 2017. After this date if in violation of the RO you are subject to having your PR status revoked regardless of the expiry date of your PR card.

 

[PRWait10]

You are incorrect and are making it incredibly complicated. As you have already been told, the expiry date of your PR card is irrelevant. All that matters is the date that you landed.

As you landed July 12th, 2014, you must spend 730 days in Canada by July 12th, 2019 in order to meet the RO.

Thanks for the clarififcation canuk_in_uk, appreciate your help in uderstanding, I have to plan acccordingly now.

 

[PRWait10]

No. It follows strict rules. In your case your time spent under a work permit living in Canada is completely irrelevant now so won't count towards PR residency obligation, nor for citizenship, since it happened too long ago.



No you are wrong. As mentioned several times, the expiry date on your PR card is irrelevant.

If what I posted above is correct, you will be in violation of the RO starting on Nov 22, 2017. After this date if in violation of the RO you are subject to having your PR status revoked regardless of the expiry date of your PR card.

Thanks for the clarification Rob_TO, I will be travelling to Canada in August hopefully to sort every thing out.

 

[PRWait10]

Appreciate your help in this regard. Thanks very much, God bless you all. I will be travelling to Canada in August hopefully to sort every thing out.

 

[skhzskhz]

Dear experts,

I landed in Canada on 26 December 2014 and stayed there for 2 weeks with my family, there after my wife and kids moved to Canada in July 2015 and since then are staying there. I, meanwhile carried on with my work in Qatar and fly once every 4 month for 2 weeks to Canada. I am planning to leave my current job on 31 December 2017 and move to Canada for good. Kindly advise whether I can extend my stay for a month or two beyond December 2017???. I have till date (between December 2014 -till date ) spend around 87 days in Canada (since my first entry). Can i count these 87 days minus 730 days as my legal stay days or I need to complete 730 days in whole??? I am a primary sponsor/applicant in my family. Can my family apply for citizenship after completion of their 3 years or do they have to wait for me to complete my 730 days and only after that will be eligible. Kindly advise..