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Does "visitor" status count as credit time before PR ?

screech339

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In my Case, I arrived in Canada as tourist last Nov 2015 because our wedding is set here on jan 2016 then filed our inland spousal sponsorship together with work permit and visitor extension.

Spousal Sponsorship received by cic: May 2016
Open work permit received September 2016 valid until 2018
Visitor extension received September 2016 extended until March 2017
Become PR this coming July 2017.

When should i start counting? is my tourist days are counted too?
BTW: You were not "tourist". You had visitor status with dual intent. A tourist had no dual intent. Thus a tourist wouldn't be able to claim pre-PR credit. However since you had visitor status with dual intent, you will be able to claim your days since Nov 2015 for pre-PR credit towards citizenship.
 
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pedropil

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BTW: You were not "tourist". You had visitor status with dual intent. A tourist had no dual intent. Thus a tourist wouldn't be able to claim pre-PR credit. However since you had visitor status with dual intent, you will be able to claim your days since Nov 2015 for pre-PR credit towards citizenship.
i do have 587 days in total from the time i arrived as tourist up to a day before PR. How many days is counted on that for the citizenship?
 

screech339

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i do have 587 days in total from the time i arrived as tourist up to a day before PR. How many days is counted on that for the citizenship?
293.5 days. But you won't be able to use that half day. You can't claim 1094.5 days and round up to qualify. So for all sense and purposes, you will be able to credit 293 days towards citizenship qualification. CIC is only interested in total full day qualifications as in 1095 days. On your 1095.5 day, you really met 1095 the day before.
 
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pedropil

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Dec 2, 2015
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06-07-2017
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293.5 days. But you won't be able to use that half day. You can't claim 1094.5 days to qualify so for all sense and purposes, you will be able to credit 293 days towards citizenship qualification.
Thank you very much @screech339
 

alphazip

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In my Case, I arrived in Canada as tourist last Nov 2015 because our wedding is set here on jan 2016 then filed our inland spousal sponsorship together with work permit and visitor extension.

Spousal Sponsorship received by cic: May 2016
Open work permit received September 2016 valid until 2018
Visitor extension received September 2016 extended until March 2017
Become PR this coming July 2017.

When should i start counting? is my tourist days are counted too?
Once C-6 takes effect, you should be able to start counting from Nov 2015. Of course, the more evidence you have that you were in Canada at that time, the better. CBSA should have a record of your arrival. You can always make an Access to Information request to find out.
 

canuck_in_uk

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BTW: You were not "tourist". You had visitor status with dual intent. A tourist had no dual intent. Thus a tourist wouldn't be able to claim pre-PR credit. However since you had visitor status with dual intent, you will be able to claim your days since Nov 2015 for pre-PR credit towards citizenship.
Where exactly are you getting this information about time not counting if a person is "just a tourist"?

Physical presence in Canada is physical presence in Canada, regardless of whether a person has dual intent or not. .
 

screech339

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Where exactly are you getting this information about time not counting if a person is "just a tourist"?

Physical presence in Canada is physical presence in Canada, regardless of whether a person has dual intent or not. .
There was a ruling that a person cannot claim pre pr credit if person does not " live" in Canada. A person lost appeal trying to claim pre pr credit as a tourist. She stayed a couple of weeks in Canada a few time throughout the 2 year period as a visitor status. Her actions constitute as "visiting" Canada with no intent to stay. In other words she was a tourist. She only had entry/ exit records with no actual proof of actually living in Canada.

Key word being "temporary residence" . A tourist is not really "residing" in Canada, only visiting as a tourist. Court ruled in CIC's interpretation.
 
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dpenabill

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There was a ruling that a person cannot claim pre pr credit if person does not " live" in Canada. A person lost appeal trying to claim pre pr credit as a tourist. She stayed a couple of weeks in Canada a few time throughout the 2 year period as a visitor status. Her actions constitute as "visiting" Canada with no intent to stay. In other words she was a tourist. She only had entry/ exit records with no actual proof of actually living in Canada.

Key word being "temporary residence" . A tourist is not really "residing" in Canada, only visiting as a tourist. Court ruled in CIC's interpretation.
Obviously it is absolutely NOT true there is any such ruling about counting days toward citizenship pursuant to the 3/5 physical presence rule to be implemented when the relevant provisions in Bill C-6 come into force.

There may be such a ruling regarding the former 3/4 residency requirement. But that was a very different law than what the 3/5 rule is.

As I explained in a post on the first page of this topic, even if a person had landed, had PR status, under the 3/4 residency rule NO days counted until that individual established an in-fact residence in Canada. That is, under the old 3/4 rule, days merely visiting Canada did not count, whether they were before or after becoming a PR, until after the applicant had established an in-fact residence in Canada. (In practice this was NOT enforced for an applicant who met the residency requirement based on more than 1095 days actual physical presence. So it affected those relying on a qualitative standard for determining residency.)

See my previous post for further discussion about the difference between technically being able to count days prior to becoming a PR (there is no reason why days as a tourist should not count), and practical considerations relevant to
-- whether they will in fact be counted, and
-- whether relying on such days in the presence calculation is likely to trigger non-routine processing

Generally, if there is formal documentation evidencing the entry, and status, such as a TRP, Visitor's Record, or such, IRCC will readily verify this in the client's FOSS/GCMS records. No problem. Regardless whether the nature of the time was tourist or otherwise.

If there is no formal documentation evidencing the entry, that is more likely to trigger a request for documentation and proof . . . which means it will be a non-routine application, and that can be a lot bigger hassle, and take a lot longer time. Many in this situation would be wise to wait and apply without relying on time in Canada as a visitor prior to becoming a PR.

Remember that formal documentation of the entry and status at entry (which IRCC can almost always verify this without seeking additional information or documentation from the applicant) is different from proof of actual presence. Routine applicants ordinarily do not have to provide the latter (beyond providing the address and employment history with the application itself, and presenting travel documents attendant the interview). Most applicants would much, much prefer to avoid the latter, the need to submit proof of actual presence. The latter means non-routine processing, which can include RQ. RQ is seriously inconvenient, profoundly intrusive into one's privacy, and tends to make the process much much longer. It is foolish to rush to apply if that means it will be a big hassle and take a lot longer to actually become a citizen.
 

screech339

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Obviously it is absolutely NOT true there is any such ruling about counting days toward citizenship pursuant to the 3/5 physical presence rule to be implemented when the relevant provisions in Bill C-6 come into force.

There may be such a ruling regarding the former 3/4 residency requirement. But that was a very different law than what the 3/5 rule is.

As I explained in a post on the first page of this topic, even if a person had landed, had PR status, under the 3/4 residency rule NO days counted until that individual established an in-fact residence in Canada. That is, under the old 3/4 rule, days merely visiting Canada did not count, whether they were before or after becoming a PR, until after the applicant had established an in-fact residence in Canada. (In practice this was NOT enforced for an applicant who met the residency requirement based on more than 1095 days actual physical presence. So it affected those relying on a qualitative standard for determining residency.)

See my previous post for further discussion about the difference between technically being able to count days prior to becoming a PR (there is no reason why days as a tourist should not count), and practical considerations relevant to
-- whether they will in fact be counted, and
-- whether relying on such days in the presence calculation is likely to trigger non-routine processing

Generally, if there is formal documentation evidencing the entry, and status, such as a TRP, Visitor's Record, or such, IRCC will readily verify this in the client's FOSS/GCMS records. No problem. Regardless whether the nature of the time was tourist or otherwise.

If there is no formal documentation evidencing the entry, that is more likely to trigger a request for documentation and proof . . . which means it will be a non-routine application, and that can be a lot bigger hassle, and take a lot longer time. Many in this situation would be wise to wait and apply without relying on time in Canada as a visitor prior to becoming a PR.

Remember that formal documentation of the entry and status at entry (which IRCC can almost always verify this without seeking additional information or documentation from the applicant) is different from proof of actual presence. Routine applicants ordinarily do not have to provide the latter (beyond providing the address and employment history with the application itself, and presenting travel documents attendant the interview). Most applicants would much, much prefer to avoid the latter, the need to submit proof of actual presence. The latter means non-routine processing, which can include RQ. RQ is seriously inconvenient, profoundly intrusive into one's privacy, and tends to make the process much much longer. It is foolish to rush to apply if that means it will be a big hassle and take a lot longer to actually become a citizen.
I would agree with you if 3/5 rule completely remove "temporary residence" requirement and only list physical presence only. But if "temporary residence" is still listed under 3/5 rule, CIC interpretation of denying a tourist pre-PR credit can still apply despite court 3/4 ruling that denied the person pre-PR credit due to being a "tourist". It's called setting a precedent.
 

dpenabill

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But if "temporary residence" is still listed under 3/5 rule, CIC interpretation of denying a tourist pre-PR credit can still apply despite court 3/4 ruling that denied the person pre-PR credit due to being a "tourist". It's called setting a precedent.
Basically: No. No. And no. And no. (Kind of strange how totally wrong this is, almost as if deliberately. Channeling the T?)

There is no CIC.

Federal Court decisions are NOT legal precedent (which is why there were three completely different interpretations of what the 3/4 rule required, none of the holdings in one Federal Court being binding on another, which is to say they do NOT establish precedent).

Even under the 3/4 rule, the generally accepted interpretation of 5(1)(c) precluding counting days prior to in-fact residence was NOT applied to those who established 1095 days of actual physical presence.

The 3/4 rule was explicitly a residence requirement. To qualify, the applicant had to "accumulate three years of residence in Canada."

In contrast, like the 4/6 rule currently in force, the 3/5 rule is a strict "physical presence" requirement.

In particular, when it takes effect, the 3/5 rule will specifically prescribe, in Section 5(1)(c)(i), that to qualify for a grant of citizenship the applicant must be --

-- "[a permanent resident who has] been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days during the five years immediately before the date of his or her application."

The provision which will allow credit for time in Canada prior to becoming a PR explicitly refers to each day the person was "physically present," including days physically present as a temporary resident.

To be clear, "temporary resident" status applies to any FN allowed to enter Canada temporarily, which includes FNs issued visitor visas (whether as a "tourist" or otherwise). In addition to Sections 20(1)(b) and 22(1) in IRPA, see Section 29 (1) in particular which states (emphasis added):
"A temporary resident is, subject to the other provisions of this Act, authorized to enter and remain in Canada on a temporary basis as a visitor or as a holder of a temporary resident permit.

For further clarification, IRPA provides for classes of temporary residents, including the visitor class, student class, and worker class. In addition to IRPA itself, also see the regulations, including in particular, for example, IRPA Regulation 179(a) which refers to applying for a temporary resident visa as a member of the visitor, student, or worker class. See Part 10, 11, and 12 in the Regulations which prescribe the three classes of temporary residents respectively, Part 10 for visitors, Part 11 for workers, and Part 12 for students. (Protected persons class are also provided for separately.)

By the way, for further clarity, "tourists" are not identified as such under Canadian immigration law. While visitors may be said to have the purpose of coming to Canada as a "tourist," that merely references one of many purposes a FN might have for coming to Canada and qualifying for entry into Canada as a visitor, which technically means the FN is admitted to Canada as a temporary resident in the visitor class, even if for a very brief visit.



Overall:

Under the 3/4 rule the in-fact residency that was necessary to commence, in effect, time which would count toward the accumulating three years of residence in Canada, was NOT about status.

It was about actually, in fact, establishing a place of residence in Canada. After all, regardless the various inter-conflicting standards for determining what "residency" meant in that version of the Section 5 in the Citizenship Act, the essential requirement was to accumulate three years of residence.

There is nothing in the provisions which will be in force when the 3/5 rule takes effect which would comparably support a similar in-fact residence requirement even if prior Federal Court decisions could be said to have established a precedent (which again, they do not).

All that said, there are practical obstacles which strongly suggest that a prospective applicant should not rely on time in Canada prior to becoming a PR unless and until the date the person has actually begun residing in Canada pursuant to formal immigration documentation of the entry and status. This is about how things work practically, not what the law technically specifies.


OK, all that said, I could have gone easier on you and just pointed out that "temporary resident" in Canadian immigration law is merely about legally being in Canada by someone other than a Canadian (not a PR and not a citizen), and that it has nothing to do with having residency or establishing an in-fact residency in Canada. But sometimes it needs to be emphasized that the way words and terms are used in law can be very different from their ordinary usage.
 
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links18

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Overall:

Under the 3/4 rule the in-fact residency that was necessary to commence, in effect, time which would count toward the accumulating three years of residence in Canada, was NOT about status.

It was about actually, in fact, establishing a place of residence in Canada. After all, regardless the various inter-conflicting standards for determining what "residency" meant in that version of the Section 5 in the Citizenship Act, the essential requirement was to accumulate three years of residence.

There is nothing in the provisions which will be in force when the 3/5 rule takes effect which would comparably support a similar in-fact residence requirement even if prior Federal Court decisions could be said to have established a precedent (which again, they do not).

All that said, there are practical obstacles which strongly suggest that a prospective applicant should not rely on time in Canada prior to becoming a PR unless and until the date the person has actually begun residing in Canada pursuant to formal immigration documentation of the entry and status. This is about how things work practically, not what the law technically specifies.


OK, all that said, I could have gone easier on you and just pointed out that "temporary resident" in Canadian immigration law is merely about legally being in Canada by someone other than a Canadian (not a PR and not a citizen), and that it has nothing to do with having residency or establishing an in-fact residency in Canada. But sometimes it needs to be emphasized that the way words and terms are used in law can be very different from their ordinary usage.
So the take away from this discussion is that there simply is no more "residency" requirement for Canadian citizenship (once C-6 is fully implemented). I wonder if some of those who thought a physical presence requirement was so much superior are having some second thoughts as it leads to what many would probably consider to be absurd results: time as a tourist can count, can qualify for citizenship without being a resident, etc.
 

alphazip

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Again, I have experience with this in terms of a friend's application. He started a romantic relationship with a Canadian citizen and basically just started living at that person's house, while keeping his own house in the U.S. He drove into the U.S. and back into Canada several times a week. After about five years, he applied for PR status (spousal from outside Canada), which he received.

At the time that it was known that the residency requirement was going to change from three years to four, I looked into whether time spent in Canada as a visitor could be counted toward citizenship. There seemed to be no definitive answer, though it appeared as though it could. So, I assisted my friend with his application and claimed two years of pre-PR residency, which equaled one year of credit. We included with the application a few receipts for medical care, etc., from the pre-PR period that bore his name and Canadian address.

At my friend's interview there were no questions at all about his time spent in Canada, though he had hundreds of border crossings listed on the calculator. He was granted citizenship in seven months.

I do not know whether this is a "typical" case. There are several factors that may have come into play: my friend was a U.S. citizen, his application was processed in a border city, and he was over 55 years of age (retired).
 

links18

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Again, I have experience with this in terms of a friend's application. He started a romantic relationship with a Canadian citizen and basically just started living at that person's house, while keeping his own house in the U.S. He drove into the U.S. and back into Canada several times a week. After about five years, he applied for PR status (spousal from outside Canada), which he received.

At the time that it was known that the residency requirement was going to change from three years to four, I looked into whether time spent in Canada as a visitor could be counted toward citizenship. There seemed to be no definitive answer, though it appeared as though it could. So, I assisted my friend with his application and claimed two years of pre-PR residency, which equaled one year of credit. We included with the application a few receipts for medical care, etc., from the pre-PR period that bore his name and Canadian address.

At my friend's interview there were no questions at all about his time spent in Canada, though he had hundreds of border crossings listed on the calculator. He was granted citizenship in seven months.

I do not know whether this is a "typical" case. There are several factors that may have come into play: my friend was a U.S. citizen, his application was processed in a border city, and he was over 55 years of age (retired).
Interesting, what did he tell CBSA he was doing in Canada each time he entered? Just visiting?
 

alphazip

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Interesting, what did he tell CBSA he was doing in Canada each time he entered? Just visiting?
I think he said he was visiting a friend. I actually know a number of people who "unofficially" lived on the other side of the border, but I think those stories are mainly from before 9/11.
 

dpenabill

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I do not know whether this is a "typical" case. There are several factors that may have come into play: my friend was a U.S. citizen, his application was processed in a border city, and he was over 55 years of age
You don't know me personally by any chance.

Just kidding. But it's close. Yeah, there was a woman to blame. Or thank. I was headed elsewhere until she reeled me in. I like how things have turned out.

In any event, what CBSA and IRCC let slide, like what CIC let slide for many years, illustrates some of the wide, wide range in how things can go for different individuals. I lived a border-straddling lifestyle, pushing the envelope, for many years. Spent a lot of time in Secondary at the border on occasion. But even back then, things could go very differently for another person whose circumstances were not all that different, just a bit different in the impression made.

A big part of it is whether they apprehend someone is abusing the system. They will let some people get away with a lot in some circumstances. They can really clamp down and be strict for others.