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730 days PR obligation not met, appeal instruction

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,598
9,124
Dear I did right or wrong, I don't know. On that time I moved to Canada only 20 days. It was very hard times for me. I could not find house to stay, no job and etc. I could not deal with health card, and it expired. I choose to save my vision. On that time I had 2 years 6 month and earlier I stayed in Canada 5 months. it was enough time for me to save PR. Unfortunately, the things happened, I returned to home country and next day doctors made surgery on my eye. Besides I am nearing to 40 years old, the gel in my eye continued to separate. If someone has myopia and he got surgery for detachment he should be in regular checkup on doctor. My doctor started to do regular checkup on my eyes. after that they prohibited me to fly because it was risky.

My family felt very depressed. Me, my son is already 4 years in control of the Psychologist because we could not move to Canada permanently(my mother health problem, she passed of in the end, my father in law health problem? he also passed off and etc) . My son has very bad insulin problem and he wants to live in Canada. All of happening affect his health. I have got letter from doctor, we have laboratory analysts, also my son teacher gave letter about his depression at the lessons because of Canada. I will try to use this facts as "Best interest of child".

Besides I also have letter from Psychologist mentioned that, I was very depressed, because I could not move to Canada. I have receipts about medicine İ bought, payments and etc. Honestly to say İ tried Suicide several times, because all problem started after İ got PR and it affected my plans to move to Canada.

Already 4 years my family in the bad situation. I don't know will IRCC or CBSA consider this facts, but it is true that, we tried to return to Canada every time.

Thanks for your all for your suggestion. If you have any other recommendation, how may I use this facts as H&C, please share with me.
With all due empathy and compassion, my opinion:
-CBSA officers are busy human beings. Do not recite to them the Dostoyevsky version of all your troubles.
-Keep your explanation brief, factual and to the point.
-Focus on the issues that prevented you returning to Canada and establishing as a PR.
-Indicate that you have documentary evidence of these issues (when it is the case). Eg hold up a folder. They probably won't look at these in great detail but may glance at them.

Bluntly, some of the issues you raise are just 'your problems.' They may get sympathy, but they may not strengthen your case for why you were not able to return earlier and why you will be successful at establishing yourself this time.

More bluntly: if your list of problems indicates to them that you will NOT be able to establish yourself and succeed on your own - if they believe you will become a burden to yourself, your family and society - that will not support the point that you will be fine.

And even more bluntly: you should ask these questions of yourself and your family. It may be that moving to Canada is NOT the right decision. That's ok. It is not for everyone and moving countries can be difficult.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
56,152
13,717
Dear I did right or wrong, I don't know. On that time I moved to Canada only 20 days. It was very hard times for me. I could not find house to stay, no job and etc. I could not deal with health card, and it expired. I choose to save my vision. On that time I had 2 years 6 month and earlier I stayed in Canada 5 months. it was enough time for me to save PR. Unfortunately, the things happened, I returned to home country and next day doctors made surgery on my eye. Besides I am nearing to 40 years old, the gel in my eye continued to separate. If someone has myopia and he got surgery for detachment he should be in regular checkup on doctor. My doctor started to do regular checkup on my eyes. after that they prohibited me to fly because it was risky.

My family felt very depressed. Me, my son is already 4 years in control of the Psychologist because we could not move to Canada permanently(my mother health problem, she passed of in the end, my father in law health problem? he also passed off and etc) . My son has very bad insulin problem and he wants to live in Canada. All of happening affect his health. I have got letter from doctor, we have laboratory analysts, also my son teacher gave letter about his depression at the lessons because of Canada. I will try to use this facts as "Best interest of child".

Besides I also have letter from Psychologist mentioned that, I was very depressed, because I could not move to Canada. I have receipts about medicine İ bought, payments and etc. Honestly to say İ tried Suicide several times, because all problem started after İ got PR and it affected my plans to move to Canada.

Already 4 years my family in the bad situation. I don't know will IRCC or CBSA consider this facts, but it is true that, we tried to return to Canada every time.

Thanks for your all for your suggestion. If you have any other recommendation, how may I use this facts as H&C, please share with me.
Given your son’s health issues he should only try to return with a valid PR card or via pRTD based on H&C. The cost of having diabetes in Canada can also be very high. Life in Canada is also incredibly difficult and moving to a new country is incredibly stressful especially if you have no arranged employment and are already suffering from mental health issues. Moving does not make sense for everyone especially at age 40. Many romanticize moving to Canada. Would suggest you collect evidence with specific timelines. For example the ophthalmologist indicating how long you were told you could not fly. If way out of the norm of maximum a couple of months MD should state why such a long period of inability to fly.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,598
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-Keep your explanation brief, factual and to the point.
-Focus on the issues that prevented you returning to Canada and establishing as a PR.
One small addition to this: make sure to answer their questions with brief, succinct answers. Do make sure you respond to the question they answer, but only with appropriate amount of detail (not too much).

But don't respond to each question with very long and detailed or meandering answers. Don't volunteer lots of extra detail that they do not ask for, that will end up confusing them (and likely you).

Review in advance the basic narrative of your story since you became a PR so that you can summarize it briefly.

As a simple example (warning this is my example and my opinion): I was diagnosed with a serious eye condition in [date]. I flew home immediately because [eg I know a good eye doctor there that I trust and I was told I could lose my sight.] After getting treated, I couldn't return right away [eg the doctor warned me I should not travel until it stabilized and I might need urgent follow-up treatment.]

Even this could probably be cut in half or most reserved for responses to questions IF they get asked.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,598
9,124
For example the ophthalmologist indicating how long you were told you could not fly. If way out of the norm of maximum a couple of months MD should state why such a long period of inability to fly.
With respect: this is precisely what I am referring to above.

I STRONGLY doubt a CBSA officer is going to both get into the details of whether or not the doctor's order to fly is within usual norms AND request detailed written proof of this at secondary inspection at an airport. This borders on being a red herring or an obsession of yours (eg you are talking your shop and not that of CBSA officers).

Good to have? Maybe. Perhaps for a subsequent appeal. Otherwise, way over the top, quite possibly waste of time compared to other prep. IMO.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
56,152
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With respect: this is precisely what I am referring to above.

I STRONGLY doubt a CBSA officer is going to both get into the details of whether or not the doctor's order to fly is within usual norms AND request detailed written proof of this at secondary inspection at an airport. This borders on being a red herring or an obsession of yours (eg you are talking your shop and not that of CBSA officers).

Good to have? Maybe. Perhaps for a subsequent appeal. Otherwise, way over the top, quite possibly waste of time compared to other prep. IMO.
Don’t expect initial H&C examination if reported to go through all the documentation but given the complex situation with multiple issues and long periods abroad it would be good to get the evidence in advance so you have it if needed. In terms of evidence needed, as you also ready specified, what you need is concrete details not the fluff. Specifying you couldn’t fly after eye surgery is not helpful what you really need is diagnosis, treatment, recovery period, prognosis, travel limitations and follow-up summary. Simple and concise. Receipt for payment/costs could also be included.

In general advice remains the same after a year that the longer you wait the more you risk. Also don’t anyone trying to relocate at 40 unless they already have substantial assets. This is not an easy time to move to Canada.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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@Efgan . . . overall . . . as has been suggested by some and alluded to by others, you indicate some difficulties which deserve compassion and sympathy but which might also mean that in your situation it is not worth the effort to try emigrating to Canada. How much effort, how much of your time, energy, and resources you are willing to invest in the effort to settle permanently in Canada, is a very personal decision, one only you can make.

And at this juncture, given the breach of the Residency Obligation and already having been cautioned about the RO by border officials, recognizing that you now meet the definition of inadmissible, there is the risk that despite your best efforts you might not succeed. That is, a big factor in your decision-making, in regards to how much effort you decide to invest, is recognizing that you might not be able to keep PR status no matter how much you now invest.

Which brings this to the key factor most likely to dominate how this goes: how soon you actually come to Canada to stay.

However strong your H&C reasons are, the longer it takes to actually get here, the less likely you are to get H&C relief for the RO breach.

And you knew this, or at the very least should have known this nearly a year ago. You were advised nearly a year ago that your best shot at keeping PR status was to get here SOON.

Longer Observations With Explanation:

My I will mot be able to 730 days PR obligation, when I will return to Canada. If CBSA officer will report me at airport, will I get email from IRCC about how to appeal? Will I be able to appeal online? I want appeal as H&C because I have reasons why I could not stay in Canada.
@armoured has given a good response to this and likewise good responses to your follow-up questions.

However, you were previously given what you needed to know about your situation nearly a YEAR ago when you asked about getting "reported" by border officials upon your arrival here:
Sure, there is some chance that will happen. But you have no alternative actions available. You cannot renew or extend your PR card from outside of Canada. You need to return to Canada if you want to retain PR. The sooner you do this the better and the lower the chance of being reported at the border.
That was in response to several posts by you back in January (this year, 2024).

I am Permanent resident of Canada. I am in Regina Saskatchewan and has stayed in Canada 680 days within 5 years. What I should do to prolong my PR? My PR card (I hent got any letter or decision about my permanent residency from IRCC) is expired.
Yes my PR card still valid. I am out of Canada
I hesitate that, in the border Border officer will ask me question "Why I was out of Canada?" and will report to IRCC to revoke PR status. May it happen?
The crux of it then, and more so now, was that your best chance of keeping your PR status in Canada was to come to Canada to STAY as soon as possible. That was true nearly a year ago. Much more so now. Every day that passes before you come to Canada, and come to STAY, the more likely it is that an inadmissibility report will be prepared and the less likely it is that your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner will persuade a Minister's Delegate to allow you to keep PR status for H&C reasons.

Likewise in regards to the odds of making a successful appeal if necessary. The longer you remain outside Canada the worse your chances.

In particular, as you apprehend, again since you are already in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and thus meeting the definition of inadmissible, there is a risk border officials will commence inadmissibility proceedings when you next arrive in Canada and a Removal or Departure Order will be issued (which others have referred to as the 44(1) Report being completed). If this happens you will be allowed to enter Canada and have thirty days to start an appeal.

Should be obvious, but if you do not return to Canada before your PR card expires and you need a PR Travel Document to get here, the longer it goes before you make the application for the PR TD the less chance there is your H&C reasons will be sufficient.

Even though @armoured has made many astute observations about the details of your situation, relative to making the H&C case and being allowed to keep PR status despite the RO breach, and the cautionary comments by @canuck78 warrant recognition, as @armoured also noted that discussion is prone to becoming a red herring, a distraction. In this regard, @armoured outlined how to best approach making the H&C case to border officials:

. . . make sure to answer their questions with brief, succinct answers. Do make sure you respond to the question they answer, but only with appropriate amount of detail (not too much).
But don't respond to each question with very long and detailed or meandering answers. Don't volunteer lots of extra detail that they do not ask for, that will end up confusing them (and likely you).
Review in advance the basic narrative of your story since you became a PR so that you can summarize it briefly.

Probably a good idea to prepare making the H&C case more thoroughly, in more detail, including compiling documentary evidence of each of the impediments or reasons for not moving to Canada sooner. The point of this is to prepare for advancing your case in an appeal if that becomes necessary.

If you can compile just a very few pages of documents that support your H&C case, including things like a one page letter from a doctor qualified to summarize the medical issues regarding your eyesight, it could be helpful to have these IN YOUR HANDS (not in bags, not even carry-on bags) when you go through screening at the Port-of-Entry upon your arrival here. Not a lot. Just enough to show there is supporting documentation for your case. I am not personally acquainted with how thorough the CBSA officer acting as a Minister's Delegate is likely to be in assessing H&C considerations, but my sense is this will usually be relatively thorough. The procedure pursuant to which the Minister's Delegate reviews the 44(1) inadmissibility report is mandated by statute, including in particular the officer's assessment of H&C considerations (the latter is mandated by Section 28(2)(c) IRPA.

But again, the more important factor is how soon you actually get here. The clock and calendar mark the never-ending march of time.


Note regarding waiting times for eye surgery:

Some suggest opting for eye surgery outside Canada is not likely to carry much weight in advancing H&C reasons for not settling here sooner, and in one of the other topics where the OP made similar queries, such as @Naturgrl asserting that "Queues for eyes are not long in Canada" and "For my eye doctor, usually I can get an appointment within two weeks."

My understanding is that here, where I live in Ontario, the current wait time for eye surgery is around two years, AT the LEAST. My personal experience is that it can take considerably longer than that (I have been in queue for more than a year and there is no sign I will be scheduled for the surgery for at least another year). And this includes services for which one will pay out-of-pocket.

As @armoured noted, these things and how they impact an individual are very personal and generalities are often way, way off, not helpful, not illuminating. The PR in breach should just tell their story and if that fails to avoid being issued a Departure Order, get an attorney to make the H&C case on appeal.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,598
9,124
My son has very bad insulin problem and he wants to live in Canada. All of happening affect his health. I have got letter from doctor, we have laboratory analysts, also my son teacher gave letter about his depression at the lessons because of Canada. I will try to use this facts as "Best interest of child".
A cautionary note on this: I do not know if the facts you've stated here support the case that this in the best interests of the child.

You have not clarified (at least in this thread) whether your son is a PR or not. If not, and you return out of compliance with the residency obligation, you may not be able to sponsor him for some period of time, possibly two years or more.

If the child has not been in Canada for years, and has been living with you, the examining officer might feel this is neutral or even negative in terms of H&C reasons. It is NOT a given that 'being in Canada' is automatically better for a child.

And again to be blunt: I don't know the circumstances here sufficiently to say, but I'm not sure that anyone objective would think that it is in the child's best interest to move a child in this circumstance to a country where they haven't lived for years - especially if it means a longer separation from a parent.

Now to be clear: I'm not asking you to explain it to me. It's your business.

I'm just warning that it's not obvious that it's a good argument for H&C treatment on your residency obligation, and it's not obvious that it's a good idea at all. It might be a very bad idea.
 
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Efgan

Star Member
Jan 28, 2017
62
4
A cautionary note on this: I do not know if the facts you've stated here support the case that this in the best interests of the child.

You have not clarified (at least in this thread) whether your son is a PR or not. If not, and you return out of compliance with the residency obligation, you may not be able to sponsor him for some period of time, possibly two years or more.

If the child has not been in Canada for years, and has been living with you, the examining officer might feel this is neutral or even negative in terms of H&C reasons. It is NOT a given that 'being in Canada' is automatically better for a child.

And again to be blunt: I don't know the circumstances here sufficiently to say, but I'm not sure that anyone objective would think that it is in the child's best interest to move a child in this circumstance to a country where they haven't lived for years - especially if it means a longer separation from a parent.

Now to be clear: I'm not asking you to explain it to me. It's your business.

I'm just warning that it's not obvious that it's a good argument for H&C treatment on your residency obligation, and it's not obvious that it's a good idea at all. It might be a very bad idea.
My child lived in Canada 3 months. He loved Canada. Also he read and watched videos about Canada a lot. It is dream in our home to move to Canada, and his friend everyday speak about it to him. Also we prepared to move to Canada already 4 years. My child teached in English language at school, despite our language is not English, also it was provate school and the program of teaching was over North America. With this program it is less oppotinities to get admission to local univercities in future. We choose this program because preparation to Canada. Besides in our local program the school years is 11 years. But most international univercities require 12 years study. That is why my child will be diffuculties in future to get admission to univercity. For him better to move to Canada, and he nows all about this details. He gets depressed because we could not move there permanently

My son will not be seperated from us. He will be with our family.
 

Besram

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2019
254
188
what happens if the appeal gets rejected-deportation?
The removal order you appealed will become enforceable. This means you have to leave the country within the timeframe you are given. If you don't, the departure order typically becomes a deportation order (which has consequences on your ability to re-enter Canada in the future) and you will be deported.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,598
9,124
My son will not be seperated from us. He will be with our family.
Is your son still a PR? If so, probably will not result in separation if you are admitted with no official report etc.

For the rest: I am, to be clear, pointing out the issues as I see them, which MIGHT overlap with how a CBSA officer sees it.

And this is why I am saying that I am not sure the 'interests of the child' argument works much in your favour.

Unclear: your child has spent only three months in Canada. That's short, but more than zero.

Most of the rest you say: these are choices you have made to emphasize moving to Canada with your child, and how to carry out education. They may make sense / may have made sense - but they have little to do with "Canada" (the physical, real place), but things he has been told by his parents. Maybe that will make sense to the CBSA officer, maybe not.

More 'traditional' best-interests-of-child arguments (based on facts and not aspirations to just live in Canada) would usually be child lived a longer time in Canada, had extensive family/friend networks that cannot be maintained otherwise, child is not accustomed to/prepared to live in home country at all, etc.

For children already living in Canada and PRs, and receiving some type of medical care or development support that can't be replicated elsewhere, probably a net positive - but not really applicable to children that have not or barely lived in Canada.

Again, just my opinion: I don't think 'best interests of child' is a very strong point for you when re-entering Canada, since the child is not in Canada and hardly ever lived here. It's up to you to make that case - and/or decide whether it supports your case. I don't know all the details of your case, though, so maybe there is more to it (and I dont want to know all the details).
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
56,152
13,717
@Efgan . . . overall . . . as has been suggested by some and alluded to by others, you indicate some difficulties which deserve compassion and sympathy but which might also mean that in your situation it is not worth the effort to try emigrating to Canada. How much effort, how much of your time, energy, and resources you are willing to invest in the effort to settle permanently in Canada, is a very personal decision, one only you can make.

And at this juncture, given the breach of the Residency Obligation and already having been cautioned about the RO by border officials, recognizing that you now meet the definition of inadmissible, there is the risk that despite your best efforts you might not succeed. That is, a big factor in your decision-making, in regards to how much effort you decide to invest, is recognizing that you might not be able to keep PR status no matter how much you now invest.

Which brings this to the key factor most likely to dominate how this goes: how soon you actually come to Canada to stay.

However strong your H&C reasons are, the longer it takes to actually get here, the less likely you are to get H&C relief for the RO breach.

And you knew this, or at the very least should have known this nearly a year ago. You were advised nearly a year ago that your best shot at keeping PR status was to get here SOON.

Longer Observations With Explanation:



@armoured has given a good response to this and likewise good responses to your follow-up questions.

However, you were previously given what you needed to know about your situation nearly a YEAR ago when you asked about getting "reported" by border officials upon your arrival here:


That was in response to several posts by you back in January (this year, 2024).





The crux of it then, and more so now, was that your best chance of keeping your PR status in Canada was to come to Canada to STAY as soon as possible. That was true nearly a year ago. Much more so now. Every day that passes before you come to Canada, and come to STAY, the more likely it is that an inadmissibility report will be prepared and the less likely it is that your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner will persuade a Minister's Delegate to allow you to keep PR status for H&C reasons.

Likewise in regards to the odds of making a successful appeal if necessary. The longer you remain outside Canada the worse your chances.

In particular, as you apprehend, again since you are already in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and thus meeting the definition of inadmissible, there is a risk border officials will commence inadmissibility proceedings when you next arrive in Canada and a Removal or Departure Order will be issued (which others have referred to as the 44(1) Report being completed). If this happens you will be allowed to enter Canada and have thirty days to start an appeal.

Should be obvious, but if you do not return to Canada before your PR card expires and you need a PR Travel Document to get here, the longer it goes before you make the application for the PR TD the less chance there is your H&C reasons will be sufficient.

Even though @armoured has made many astute observations about the details of your situation, relative to making the H&C case and being allowed to keep PR status despite the RO breach, and the cautionary comments by @canuck78 warrant recognition, as @armoured also noted that discussion is prone to becoming a red herring, a distraction. In this regard, @armoured outlined how to best approach making the H&C case to border officials:

. . . make sure to answer their questions with brief, succinct answers. Do make sure you respond to the question they answer, but only with appropriate amount of detail (not too much).
But don't respond to each question with very long and detailed or meandering answers. Don't volunteer lots of extra detail that they do not ask for, that will end up confusing them (and likely you).
Review in advance the basic narrative of your story since you became a PR so that you can summarize it briefly.

Probably a good idea to prepare making the H&C case more thoroughly, in more detail, including compiling documentary evidence of each of the impediments or reasons for not moving to Canada sooner. The point of this is to prepare for advancing your case in an appeal if that becomes necessary.

If you can compile just a very few pages of documents that support your H&C case, including things like a one page letter from a doctor qualified to summarize the medical issues regarding your eyesight, it could be helpful to have these IN YOUR HANDS (not in bags, not even carry-on bags) when you go through screening at the Port-of-Entry upon your arrival here. Not a lot. Just enough to show there is supporting documentation for your case. I am not personally acquainted with how thorough the CBSA officer acting as a Minister's Delegate is likely to be in assessing H&C considerations, but my sense is this will usually be relatively thorough. The procedure pursuant to which the Minister's Delegate reviews the 44(1) inadmissibility report is mandated by statute, including in particular the officer's assessment of H&C considerations (the latter is mandated by Section 28(2)(c) IRPA.

But again, the more important factor is how soon you actually get here. The clock and calendar mark the never-ending march of time.


Note regarding waiting times for eye surgery:

Some suggest opting for eye surgery outside Canada is not likely to carry much weight in advancing H&C reasons for not settling here sooner, and in one of the other topics where the OP made similar queries, such as @Naturgrl asserting that "Queues for eyes are not long in Canada" and "For my eye doctor, usually I can get an appointment within two weeks."

My understanding is that here, where I live in Ontario, the current wait time for eye surgery is around two years, AT the LEAST. My personal experience is that it can take considerably longer than that (I have been in queue for more than a year and there is no sign I will be scheduled for the surgery for at least another year). And this includes services for which one will pay out-of-pocket.

As @armoured noted, these things and how they impact an individual are very personal and generalities are often way, way off, not helpful, not illuminating. The PR in breach should just tell their story and if that fails to avoid being issued a Departure Order, get an attorney to make the H&C case on appeal.
Think you may be referring to cataract operations but those typically can also be secured earlier than 2 years depending on the location. For other eye issues, especially emergency ones, you can get a consult in the ED if a true emergency or be sent to a larger hospital and you should also be seen by an Opthamologist in a clinic within a few days. Don’t want people to worry that an eye emergency won’t be addressed relatively quickly.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
56,152
13,717
My child lived in Canada 3 months. He loved Canada. Also he read and watched videos about Canada a lot. It is dream in our home to move to Canada, and his friend everyday speak about it to him. Also we prepared to move to Canada already 4 years. My child teached in English language at school, despite our language is not English, also it was provate school and the program of teaching was over North America. With this program it is less oppotinities to get admission to local univercities in future. We choose this program because preparation to Canada. Besides in our local program the school years is 11 years. But most international univercities require 12 years study. That is why my child will be diffuculties in future to get admission to univercity. For him better to move to Canada, and he nows all about this details. He gets depressed because we could not move there permanently

My son will not be seperated from us. He will be with our family.
He could get admitted to a university in Canada as domestic or international student (depending on the circumstances) but would be required to do a bridging year. If the curriculum was taught all over North America it doesn’t make sense that there is no grade 12 or equivalent. Maybe you are referring to international or French baccalaureate but those are typically 12 years. Most larger universities all over the world are able to accommodate various forms of graduates.
 

Efgan

Star Member
Jan 28, 2017
62
4
He could get admitted to a university in Canada as domestic or international student (depending on the circumstances) but would be required to do a bridging year. If the curriculum was taught all over North America it doesn’t make sense that there is no grade 12 or equivalent. Maybe you are referring to international or French baccalaureate but those are typically 12 years. Most larger universities all over the world are able to accommodate various forms of graduates.
Dear my child interest is to live and get admission to Canada university. I looked youtube videos, it consider as best interest of child. They even dont need prove about that. If canada education system better than you it considered best interest of child. If we are appealing for Canada, it means my child want to study in Canada not other countries. We have no option for anither countries, we have 2 option: Canada and home country. We are residens of 2 countries. IRCC may not pretend that your child need to choose another country.
best interest of child is main section in H& C cases. If my child will be in depression again if he will return to home country snd he will get diabetics, it means he will face with hardship. It is another main factor on best interest of child. All of this written in Residency obligation appeal guide on IRCC website.