Please confirm if my parents can meet RO requirement

[hankgong]

My parents currently live outside of Canada. Here are some facts about them. Dates are in the format of YYYY-MM-DD.

- They soft-landed in Canada on 2020/10/07.
- They received the maple card with an expiration date of 2025/11/05.
- They lived with me after soft-landing and left Canada on 2022/07/24.
- They plan to return to Canada on 2025/05/30 and submit their PR renewal application on 2025/09/30.

According to my calculation, the number of days between 2020/11/05 and 2022/07/24 is 626, and between 2025/05/30 and 2025/09/30 is 123. So the total days will be 749, enough to meet RO. But I read some posts in this forum saying the RO counts should start from the soft landing, not the date they received the maple card.

It looks like this plan should work. Is there anything I need to pay attention to?

 

[armoured]

My parents currently live outside of Canada. Here are some facts about them. Dates are in the format of YYYY-MM-DD.

- They soft-landed in Canada on 2020/10/07.
- They received the maple card with an expiration date of 2025/11/05.
- They lived with me after soft-landing and left Canada on 2022/07/24.
- They plan to return to Canada on 2025/05/30 and submit their PR renewal application on 2025/09/30.

According to my calculation, the number of days between 2020/11/05 and 2022/07/24 is 626, and between 2025/05/30 and 2025/09/30 is 123. So the total days will be 749, enough to meet RO. But I read some posts in this forum saying the RO counts should start from the soft landing, not the date they received the maple card.

It looks like this plan should work. Is there anything I need to pay attention to?

No idea what a maple card is.

But yes, the date of landing is what matters. IRCC has no official concept of soft landing. There is only the date you became a PR, which is the day of landing. Any other day, such as day of issue of the PR card, is irrelevant.

No-one is going to do your arithmetic for you. Very simple calc: if between the day they landed (2020-10-07) and five years from that day (2025-10-07) they spend MORE THAN 1095* days outside Canada, they are not compliant.

After that five year anniversary (2025-10-07), the same calculation - but looking back five years from any day. Eg on 2026-01-01 if outside Canada more than 1095 days between 2021-01-01 and that day, they are out of compliance.

In practice, what matters is any day IRCC 'examines' them, which is mainly any time they arrive at a port of entry or submit some doc to IRCC.

*1095 days is just 5*365 - 730 days required to be in Canada, just easier to calculate (IMO).

 

[hankgong]

No idea what a maple card is.

But yes, the date of landing is what matters. IRCC has no official concept of soft landing. There is only the date you became a PR, which is the day of landing. Any other day, such as day of issue of the PR card, is irrelevant.

No-one is going to do your arithmetic for you. Very simple calc: if between the day they landed (2020-10-07) and five years from that day (2025-10-07) they spend MORE THAN 1095* days outside Canada, they are not compliant.

After that five year anniversary (2025-10-07), the same calculation - but looking back five years from any day. Eg on 2026-01-01 if outside Canada more than 1095 days between 2021-01-01 and that day, they are out of compliance.

In practice, what matters is any day IRCC 'examines' them, which is mainly any time they arrive at a port of entry or submit some doc to IRCC.

*1095 days is just 5*365 - 730 days required to be in Canada, just easier to calculate (IMO).

Thanks. Maple card, I mean permanent resident card.

 

[dpenabill]

My parents currently live outside of Canada. Here are some facts about them. Dates are in the format of YYYY-MM-DD.

- They soft-landed in Canada on 2020/10/07.
- They received the maple card with an expiration date of 2025/11/05.
- They lived with me after soft-landing and left Canada on 2022/07/24.
- They plan to return to Canada on 2025/05/30 and submit their PR renewal application on 2025/09/30.

According to my calculation, the number of days between 2020/11/05 and 2022/07/24 is 626, and between 2025/05/30 and 2025/09/30 is 123. So the total days will be 749, enough to meet RO. But I read some posts in this forum saying the RO counts should start from the soft landing, not the date they received the maple card.

It looks like this plan should work. Is there anything I need to pay attention to?

I largely agree with the observations posted by @armoured.

Some Further Observations Re Calculating RO Compliance:

Actually someone else (well, some software) will do the arithmetic. Just do a partial draft (only a small part) of the PR card application (IMM 5444):

-- check "I am in Canada"​

​

-- in Question 1.1 check "Renew my present PR card"​

​

-- in Question 1.4 enter the date of landing, which is the date the PR became a PR​

​

-- in Question 5.1 check "Yes" (as in "yes" the PR has travelled or lived outside of Canada in the past five years)​

​

-- fill in the "To date" in Question 5.5 for the "Period to be assessed," entering the date the application will be made as the "To" date; the form will auto complete the "From" date, which will be either​

-- -- the date five years previous to the "To" date (date application is made), or​

-- -- the date of landing (if that was less than five years prior to the date the application is to be made, based on what the PR entered in Question 1.4)​

​

-- accurately fill in the relevant travel history information in the Question 5.5 chart, listing all dates of exiting Canada and entering Canada including hypothetical future dates (such as, based on your information, a date of entry 2025-05-30)​

Then the interactive PDF form will do the arithmetic. It will display a calculation of the total time spent outside Canada. If that is less than 1095 days, the PR is complying with the RO.

For a PR who landed October 7, 2020 and has just one absence from Canada July 24, 2022 to May 30, 2025, the form will calculate the PR was outside Canada a total of 1040 days, thus in RO compliance.

(By the way, if they stayed in Canada from October 7, 2020 until July 24, 2022, nearly two years, that's a stay longer than most would call a "soft" landing; but as @armoured noted, for IRCC purposes this characterization, description, or label, "soft landing," is not recognized or relevant other than the date of landing is the date the former Foreign National became a Canadian (a Canadian PR)).​

Best Laid Plans . . . a Caution, an obvious caution but one demanding a reminder . . . lots of reasons why the poem by Robert Burns and the title of a book by John Steinbeck get quoted so often . . . even the best, most carefully made plans often go awry. This forum is rife with anecdotal reporting from PRs who planned to return to Canada in time to stay in compliance with the RO but for this or that reason were unable to return to Canada by then. While it continues to appear that border officials are quite lenient toward returning PRs with valid PR cards arriving here within the first five years after landing, and particularly if they are not falling short of meeting the RO by much, we really do not know what the odds are other than to know that to be in breach is to be at risk of losing PR status. It appears your parents have less than a two month buffer.

The latter warrants another caution: assuming your parents do return to Canada by next May, limiting their absence since landing to 1040 days, in order to STAY in compliance with the RO they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years. Remember, as of the fifth year anniversary the RO requires a PR to be IN Canada at least two years total (that is 730 days) within the preceding five years. (Thus, for example, when they are issued a new PR card that does NOT start the five year period anew.)

 

[canuck78]

They’ll also need to reapply for a health card upon their return since they didn’t meet the residency obligation to qualify for provincial healthcare.

 

[hankgong]

I largely agree with the observations posted by @armoured.

Some Further Observations Re Calculating RO Compliance:

Actually someone else (well, some software) will do the arithmetic. Just do a partial draft (only a small part) of the PR card application (IMM 5444):

-- check "I am in Canada"​

​

-- in Question 1.1 check "Renew my present PR card"​

​

-- in Question 1.4 enter the date of landing, which is the date the PR became a PR​

​

-- in Question 5.1 check "Yes" (as in "yes" the PR has travelled or lived outside of Canada in the past five years)​

​

-- fill in the "To date" in Question 5.5 for the "Period to be assessed," entering the date the application will be made as the "To" date; the form will auto complete the "From" date, which will be either​

-- -- the date five years previous to the "To" date (date application is made), or​

-- -- the date of landing (if that was less than five years prior to the date the application is to be made, based on what the PR entered in Question 1.4)​

​

-- accurately fill in the relevant travel history information in the Question 5.5 chart, listing all dates of exiting Canada and entering Canada including hypothetical future dates (such as, based on your information, a date of entry 2025-05-30)​

Then the interactive PDF form will do the arithmetic. It will display a calculation of the total time spent outside Canada. If that is less than 1095 days, the PR is complying with the RO.

For a PR who landed October 7, 2020 and has just one absence from Canada July 24, 2022 to May 30, 2025, the form will calculate the PR was outside Canada a total of 1040 days, thus in RO compliance.

(By the way, if they stayed in Canada from October 7, 2020 until July 24, 2022, nearly two years, that's a stay longer than most would call a "soft" landing; but as @armoured noted, for IRCC purposes this characterization, description, or label, "soft landing," is not recognized or relevant other than the date of landing is the date the former Foreign National became a Canadian (a Canadian PR)).​

Best Laid Plans . . . a Caution, an obvious caution but one demanding a reminder . . . lots of reasons why the poem by Robert Burns and the title of a book by John Steinbeck get quoted so often . . . even the best, most carefully made plans often go awry. This forum is rife with anecdotal reporting from PRs who planned to return to Canada in time to stay in compliance with the RO but for this or that reason were unable to return to Canada by then. While it continues to appear that border officials are quite lenient toward returning PRs with valid PR cards arriving here within the first five years after landing, and particularly if they are not falling short of meeting the RO by much, we really do not know what the odds are other than to know that to be in breach is to be at risk of losing PR status. It appears your parents have less than a two month buffer.

The latter warrants another caution: assuming your parents do return to Canada by next May, limiting their absence since landing to 1040 days, in order to STAY in compliance with the RO they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years. Remember, as of the fifth year anniversary the RO requires a PR to be IN Canada at least two years total (that is 730 days) within the preceding five years. (Thus, for example, when they are issued a new PR card that does NOT start the five year period anew.)

Thanks for your reply. It's very helpful. But I need clarification about the last point as you said that "they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years".

Here is my understanding.
If my parents can successfully renew the PR card next year with the application date 2025/09/30, then let's say the card has a new expiration date of 2030/09/30. The next time they apply for PR card renewal will be in 2030, let's say 2030/06/30. In this way, they only need to live at least 730 days from 2025/06/30 to 2030/06/30. I don't see a problem if they leave Canada in 2025 after the new PR card and return in 2028.

Can you clarify the issue in this scenario? I appreciate your help!!

 

[scylla]

Thanks for your reply. It's very helpful. But I need clarification about the last point as you said that "they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years".

Here is my understanding.
If my parents can successfully renew the PR card next year with the application date 2025/09/30, then let's say the card has a new expiration date of 2030/09/30. The next time they apply for PR card renewal will be in 2030, let's say 2030/06/30. In this way, they only need to live at least 730 days from 2025/06/30 to 2030/06/30. I don't see a problem if they leave Canada in 2025 after the new PR card and return in 2028.

Can you clarify the issue in this scenario? I appreciate your help!!

This is an incorrect understanding of how it works.

The residency obligation is a rolling obligation. This means they must meet the residency obligation at all times if you look back at the previous five years. So if they leave in 2025 and return in 2028 they will be out of compliance with the residency obligation.

 

[hankgong]

They’ll also need to reapply for a health card upon their return since they didn’t meet the residency obligation to qualify for provincial healthcare.

Yes, they need to get a new health card. I also have a question about this. I remember we needed to wait 3 months before we could get the medical service covered by OHIP if Ontarians left the province too long and needed to reapply.

But I asked the family doctor, and she said they don't need to wait for 3 months anymore. Do you know if this is true?

 

[armoured]

Actually someone else (well, some software) will do the arithmetic.

As I'm sure is probably clear, but to make it explicit, my point is that only the PR/applicants/the people directly involved, can take responsibility for the arithmetic. Including understanding (or not) how it works, and entering the dates correctly.

Anyone can do it, including software, but no-one is going to care much - or live with the consequences - apart from the OP and the parents.

 

[scylla]

Yes, they need to get a new health card. I also have a question about this. I remember we needed to wait 3 months before we could get the medical service covered by OHIP if Ontarians left the province too long and needed to reapply.

But I asked the family doctor, and she said they don't need to wait for 3 months anymore. Do you know if this is true?

The 3 month waiting period was removed during COVID and I don't believe it's been put back.

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks for your reply.

First, my apologies, it appears there are problems in the functionality of IMM 5444. So it might not be so easy to use IMM 544 to do hypothetical/draft RO compliance calculations as I described above. And while IMM 5444 is still available at the IRCC website (such as through the IRCC form finder) and there is a 2024 version, in addition to some of its features not working properly it is not so readily accessible now that IRCC has migrated to the online portal for PR card applications.

It can still be used as I describe above to do the arithmetic if the application date is less than five years after the date of landing, and also otherwise for draft, hypothetical purposes by substituting the landing date with the date five years prior to the hypothetical date the application will be made (the auto fill functionality for the "From" date, for the period to be assessed, appears stuck on date of landing even if the application date, the "To" date for that, is more than five years after the landing date). Working through this might be confusing for anyone not already well acquainted with how the RO works (which, as @scylla described, is a "rolling obligation"), so I am not sure it is all that useful for you for assessing RO compliance beyond the fifth year anniversary of landing.

The clarification noted by @armoured is also a point well-taken. And in a sense the IMM 5444 application form actually acknowledges that point, that the PR is the person responsible for the calculation, where it states that if "your total time spent outside Canada is less than 1095 days" (as calculated in Question 5.5, and that is for the appropriate period to be assessed), "you appear to meet the residency requirements." It does not say the PR meets the RO, but only that they appear to meet it, since the information put into the form and the calculation are subject to verification . . . it is all on the PR to get the calculation right. That said, if the PR puts in accurate and complete information, and the total time outside Canada is correctly calculated to be less than 1095 days (within the period to be assessed), the PR is in compliance.

What I personally like about using IMM 5444 is that the Question 5.5 Chart will automatically count the days between any two dates. Enter 2022-07-24 in the "From" date column and 2025-05-30 in the "To" date column, the form automatically counts that as 1040 days outside Canada. And the form will automatically add up the total for multiple trips (that is, it does the arithmetic). So it can still be reliably used to do the arithmetic as long as the PR understands what the proper period to be assessed is and enters travel dates within that period accordingly.

. . . I need clarification about the last point as you said that "they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years".

Here is my understanding.
If my parents can successfully renew the PR card next year with the application date 2025/09/30, then let's say the card has a new expiration date of 2030/09/30. The next time they apply for PR card renewal will be in 2030, let's say 2030/06/30. In this way, they only need to live at least 730 days from 2025/06/30 to 2030/06/30. I don't see a problem if they leave Canada in 2025 after the new PR card and return in 2028.

Can you clarify the issue in this scenario? I appreciate your help!!

I concur in the response from @scylla, including the observation that is NOT how it works . . . but it also warrants emphasizing what was stated in the first response by @armoured . . .

. . . the date of landing is what matters . . . There is only the date you became a PR, which is the day of landing. Any other day, such as day of issue of the PR card, is irrelevant.

(emphasis added)

Whether it is the first PR card or any subsequent replacement of the PR card, the date the card is issued plays NO role in calculating compliance with the Residency Obligation. Likewise in regards to the date the card expires, that has NO role in calculating compliance with the RO.

Example: If the PR leaves Canada and does not return to Canada until January 3, 2028, for example, and border officials engage in RO compliance questioning at the Port-of-Entry, the period to be assessed will be the five year period between January 3, 2023 to January 3, 2028. Again, date the PR card was issued is NOT relevant, not a factor. To be in RO compliance the PR will need to have spent at least 730 days in Canada during that period of time (that is, again, between January 3, 2023 and January 3, 2028).

 

[YVR123]

Thanks for your reply. It's very helpful. But I need clarification about the last point as you said that "they will not be able to leave Canada for more than 55 days for the next TWO years".

Here is my understanding.
If my parents can successfully renew the PR card next year with the application date 2025/09/30, then let's say the card has a new expiration date of 2030/09/30. The next time they apply for PR card renewal will be in 2030, let's say 2030/06/30. In this way, they only need to live at least 730 days from 2025/06/30 to 2030/06/30. I don't see a problem if they leave Canada in 2025 after the new PR card and return in 2028.

Can you clarify the issue in this scenario? I appreciate your help!!

Just to respond to this assumption. The assumption as bold is incorrect. RO is looking back any 5 years (generally referred as rolling 5 years). The PR card expiry doesn't affect RO. New expiry doesn't "extend" their PR or change their RO.

If they leave Canada in 2025 with only 730 days, and if most of their physical presence days are at the beginning of their landing (soft or hard, it doesn't matter) date, they will be losing days to meet RO. And will soon be not meeting their RO even if they have valid PR cards.

 

[YVR123]

Yes, they need to get a new health card. I also have a question about this. I remember we needed to wait 3 months before we could get the medical service covered by OHIP if Ontarians left the province too long and needed to reapply.

But I asked the family doctor, and she said they don't need to wait for 3 months anymore. Do you know if this is true?

If the rule hasn't change, they don't need to wait for 3 months for OHIP BUT they will need to meet other residence requirement in ON to use the healthcare service there.

Apply for OHIP and get a health card | ontario.ca
Who qualifies
With certain exceptions, to qualify for OHIP, you must meet all of the minimum qualifications listed below plus at least 1 of the additional requirements.

To meet the minimum qualifications you must:

• be physically in Ontario for 153 days in any 12‑month period
• be physically in Ontario for at least 153 days of the first 183 days immediately after you began living in the province
• make Ontario your primary residence

You must also meet at least 1 of the following additional requirements. You:

• are a permanent resident (formerly called a “landed immigrant”)

(not listing all the additional requirements since only PR applies to your case)

 

[canuck78]

If the rule hasn't change, they don't need to wait for 3 months for OHIP BUT they will need to meet other residence requirement in ON to use the healthcare service there.

Apply for OHIP and get a health card | ontario.ca
Who qualifies
With certain exceptions, to qualify for OHIP, you must meet all of the minimum qualifications listed below plus at least 1 of the additional requirements.

To meet the minimum qualifications you must:

• be physically in Ontario for 153 days in any 12‑month period
• be physically in Ontario for at least 153 days of the first 183 days immediately after you began living in the province
• make Ontario your primary residence

You must also meet at least 1 of the following additional requirements. You:

• are a permanent resident (formerly called a “landed immigrant”)

(not listing all the additional requirements since only PR applies to your case)

To add to this there is often the confusion that a non-expired health card is a valid health card. You need to have a valid health card and meet the residency obligations to qualify for healthcare in that province. When you reapply you start again with the residency requirements for the first year OHIP applicants. If you use healthcare and do not meet the residency obligations you can be asked to pay back any healthcare you used.