Application Returned - Incomplete saying incomplete physical presence

[dpenabill]

I appreciate the inputs you are giving in regards to this matter. However; based on my experienced with my application right now, my application was not deemed non-routine. My background check and security clearance was completed only within 5 business days after receiving AOR. I am waiting now for my test-invite.

Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary.

As of today, my files is under normal processing time. I will update everyone in this thread if I get update regarding my application.

Note I was not addressing anything about the progress of your case; I stated:

I am nowhere near familiar enough with the situation described by @SpiritualWonderBoy to comment on it or what it might mean in your situation [referring to the situation @Cannnada is dealing with].

In particular, I was not commenting on your status or what the process is in your case other than as an example of an applicant providing an explanation and in effect pushing/compelling IRCC to process an application that was initially returned for being short of meeting the physical presence requirement.

Nonetheless, since (as you reported) your application was not accepted/returned not just once, but twice, that makes it non-routine (routinely processed applications do not get returned to the applicant or otherwise not accepted).

In regards to: "Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary."

Makes no sense. Any application can end up subject to non-routine processing no matter how perfectly completed by a fully qualified applicant. Many qualified applicants get finger print requests for example. If for any reason a processing agent has questions, that can trigger non-routine processing.

Moreover, if a client's pre-PR time in Canada is not documented in the client's GCMS, even if should count IRCC might not credit it UNLESS the applicant more or less insists and then is able to satisfy IRCC they had temporary resident status during that period of time. Just saying it's so is not enough. (Just like days in Canada as a PR, they count, but IRCC can question them and an applicant can be required to provide additional proof they actually were present.)

Reminder: the fact that an application encounters non-routine processing does not illuminate much. What matters is the particular non-routine processing involved. Some non-routine processing is minor and only minimally increases the timeline. Finger print requests, as mentioned, for example, and even returned applications which are easily fixed and quickly re-submitted.

Even some presence-questioned cases can be resolved in a relatively short time. These are often referred to as "RQ" cases, meaning the applicant gets a Residence Questionnaire, but these days not all presence-questioned (residency-questioned) applications get RQ'd, as it appears in some cases IRCC is conducting (or referring to CBSA's NSSD to conduct) residency-questioning investigations without making RQ requests. (So applicants can have a non-routine application without knowing it, since applicants are not advised if the application is undergoing investigation, and it will not show up in GCMS and call centre agents will not inform the applicant of it; even the fact they are conducting an investigation is confidential -- all the applicant will see is that others are getting scheduled for the oath sooner than they are.)

The risk is that if what the applicant submits is questioned, there is a significant chance that MIGHT cause RQ-related non-routine processing, and if that happens that can result in a much longer processing timeline. Not always. But if waiting six or ten weeks longer to apply can for sure eliminate doubts, waiting can mean taking the oath much sooner.

 

[Cannnada]

Aren’t you more than 1095 even if you don’t include implied or maintained status days you are way like 4 months above 1095 days ?

No, I had travel days..

 

[Miss bee]

No, I had travel days..

How many days did you travel ?

 

[Cannnada]

Note I was not addressing anything about the progress of your case; I stated:


In particular, I was not commenting on your status or what the process is in your case other than as an example of an applicant providing an explanation and in effect pushing/compelling IRCC to process an application that was initially returned for being short of meeting the physical presence requirement.

Nonetheless, since (as you reported) your application was not accepted/returned not just once, but twice, that makes it non-routine (routinely processed applications do not get returned to the applicant or otherwise not accepted).

In regards to: "Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary."

Makes no sense. Any application can end up subject to non-routine processing no matter how perfectly completed by a fully qualified applicant. Many qualified applicants get finger print requests for example. If for any reason a processing agent has questions, that can trigger non-routine processing.

Moreover, if a client's pre-PR time in Canada is not documented in the client's GCMS, even if should count IRCC might not credit it UNLESS the applicant more or less insists and then is able to satisfy IRCC they had temporary resident status during that period of time. Just saying it's so is not enough. (Just like days in Canada as a PR, they count, but IRCC can question them and an applicant can be required to provide additional proof they actually were present.)

Reminder: the fact that an application encounters non-routine processing does not illuminate much. What matters is the particular non-routine processing involved. Some non-routine processing is minor and only minimally increases the timeline. Finger print requests, as mentioned, for example, and even returned applications which are easily fixed and quickly re-submitted.

Even some presence-questioned cases can be resolved in a relatively short time. These are often referred to as "RQ" cases, meaning the applicant gets a Residence Questionnaire, but these days not all presence-questioned (residency-questioned) applications get RQ'd, as it appears in some cases IRCC is conducting (or referring to CBSA's NSSD to conduct) residency-questioning investigations without making RQ requests. (So applicants can have a non-routine application without knowing it, since applicants are not advised if the application is undergoing investigation, and it will not show up in GCMS and call centre agents will not inform the applicant of it; even the fact they are conducting an investigation is confidential -- all the applicant will see is that others are getting scheduled for the oath sooner than they are.)

The risk is that if what the applicant submits is questioned, there is a significant chance that MIGHT cause RQ-related non-routine processing, and if that happens that can result in a much longer processing timeline. Not always. But if waiting six or ten weeks longer to apply can for sure eliminate doubts, waiting can mean taking the oath much sooner.

@dpenabill
I have another question, appreciate if you can address!
I ordered my Travel history from CBSA. But the report is different from the travel ledger that I maintain.
For example, I entered 29th August which is recorded in travel history. I traveled again on November 10th and returned November 19th. Here my EXIT record of November 10th is missing and ENTRY of 19th November is recorded.
So, I have Two Entry records vs one exit record.
Do I need to explain this in letter too?
Any one else faced this?

 

[Cannnada]

How many days did you travel ?

More than 200 days pre-PR.

 

[SpiritualWonderBoy]

Note I was not addressing anything about the progress of your case; I stated:


In particular, I was not commenting on your status or what the process is in your case other than as an example of an applicant providing an explanation and in effect pushing/compelling IRCC to process an application that was initially returned for being short of meeting the physical presence requirement.

Nonetheless, since (as you reported) your application was not accepted/returned not just once, but twice, that makes it non-routine (routinely processed applications do not get returned to the applicant or otherwise not accepted).

In regards to: "Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary."

Makes no sense. Any application can end up subject to non-routine processing no matter how perfectly completed by a fully qualified applicant. Many qualified applicants get finger print requests for example. If for any reason a processing agent has questions, that can trigger non-routine processing.

Moreover, if a client's pre-PR time in Canada is not documented in the client's GCMS, even if should count IRCC might not credit it UNLESS the applicant more or less insists and then is able to satisfy IRCC they had temporary resident status during that period of time. Just saying it's so is not enough. (Just like days in Canada as a PR, they count, but IRCC can question them and an applicant can be required to provide additional proof they actually were present.)

Reminder: the fact that an application encounters non-routine processing does not illuminate much. What matters is the particular non-routine processing involved. Some non-routine processing is minor and only minimally increases the timeline. Finger print requests, as mentioned, for example, and even returned applications which are easily fixed and quickly re-submitted.

Even some presence-questioned cases can be resolved in a relatively short time. These are often referred to as "RQ" cases, meaning the applicant gets a Residence Questionnaire, but these days not all presence-questioned (residency-questioned) applications get RQ'd, as it appears in some cases IRCC is conducting (or referring to CBSA's NSSD to conduct) residency-questioning investigations without making RQ requests. (So applicants can have a non-routine application without knowing it, since applicants are not advised if the application is undergoing investigation, and it will not show up in GCMS and call centre agents will not inform the applicant of it; even the fact they are conducting an investigation is confidential -- all the applicant will see is that others are getting scheduled for the oath sooner than they are.)

The risk is that if what the applicant submits is questioned, there is a significant chance that MIGHT cause RQ-related non-routine processing, and if that happens that can result in a much longer processing timeline. Not always. But if waiting six or ten weeks longer to apply can for sure eliminate doubts, waiting can mean taking the oath much sooner.

Just a quick question. How do they defined an application to be a non-routine? Do they review the entire file and make a decision or it is the officer discretion not to put the file in to green bin ?

 

[Miss bee]

Just a quick question. How do they defined an application to be a non-routine? Do they review the entire file and make a decision or it is the officer discretion not to put the file in to green bin ?

No mostly probably when they ask too many documents and ask you to come for interview . I don’t think so your application is non routine.

 

[SpiritualWonderBoy]

No mostly probably when they ask too many documents and ask you to come for interview . I don’t think so your application is non routine.

I don't think my application is non-routine my background check was completed and security clearance was granted five days after my AOR. My application also was not transferred to DN in Ontario. It stayed in CPC-Sydney which we all know it is one of the slowest one RC8090.

 

[Miss bee]

I don't think my application is non-routine my background check was completed and security clearance was granted five days after my AOR. My application also was not transferred to DN in Ontario. It stayed in CPC-Sydney which we all know it is one of the slowest one RC8090.

Try to order GCMS notes . Your application is most quicker than other applicants i saw here . You will get Test invitation within few days .

 

[dpenabill]

Just a quick question. How do they defined an application to be a non-routine? Do they review the entire file and make a decision or it is the officer discretion not to put the file in to green bin ?

Non-routine is descriptive not a status or category. Any processing that is in addition to what is part of the regular, that is "routine" procedure, means the application is "non-routine."

The only way IRCC uses this term is to distinguish the timeline for processing applications. It is more or less an excuse. "Oh, your application is non-routine, so it is taking longer."

Again, the fact that an application is "non-routine" is not very informative. It is what in particular that makes it non-routine that is important and makes the difference.

EDIT to ADD clarification: The fact that an application is non-routine has NO particular impact on how the application is processed or how long it takes. So, for example, once the reason the application is non-routine is resolved, the only impact it has is how long it delayed the application to that point. It will have ZERO additional impact. Again, what matters is what sort of non-routine processing is involved and how that affects things.

No mostly probably when they ask too many documents and ask you to come for interview . I don’t think so your application is non routine.

Any request for documents or a procedure that is not part of what all applications are subject to makes it non-routine. Which again does not say much.

PI interviews are actually routine. This may confuse some because due to Covid this routine procedure was suspended for a time, and it appears that IRCC has not yet fully resumed interviews for all adult applicants.

I have another question, appreciate if you can address!
I ordered my Travel history from CBSA. But the report is different from the travel ledger that I maintain.
For example, I entered 29th August which is recorded in travel history. I traveled again on November 10th and returned November 19th. Here my EXIT record of November 10th is missing and ENTRY of 19th November is recorded.
So, I have Two Entry records vs one exit record.
Do I need to explain this in letter too?

Again, I am no expert. You will need to make these decisions yourself, based on your best judgment.

Not all explanations are created equal. CBSA records of exits shared with clients are NOT as complete as CBSA travel history for entries.

The thing is, in reporting travel history dates the applicant should be as complete and accurate as they can. It is OK, and for some a damn good idea, to cross-check their records against other sources. Which can include obtaining a copy of CBSA travel history records. But it is still the applicant's obligation to be as accurate and complete as possible in what they report in the calculator.

Because records of exits are still limited, and not as complete, I doubt the fact that the CBSA record does not show an exit will cause questions. Especially for a time period like this, when obviously there was an exit after the August entry prior to the November entry.

Back to all explanations are not equal: there is no hard and fast rule about what and when to add supplemental information. Generally it is best to keep things as simple and direct as possible. Bureaucracies tend to have difficulty dealing with complexities. Some things need to be explained. Many times, though, explanations draw more attention than warranted and can invite questions, which means increasing the risk of non-routine processing.

There seems to be a general reluctance to the wait-longer-to-apply approach but there are many, many circumstances in which waiting just a couple or five weeks longer can make the difference between a problem-free path to the oath versus something like RQ or other extra step (like referral of inquiries to other agencies) which can add months or many months to how long it takes. But ultimately when to apply is a very personal decision that individual applicants need to make for themselves. I waited well over an extra year, for example, but that was because of some very specific circumstances in my situation (largely related to the fact that my employment was exclusively providing services outside Canada -- I worked in Canada but only for publications outside Canada), so my particular wait was far longer than most need. I mention it to illustrate how personal this choice is . . . and to emphasize that just getting past the threshold in which the calculator shows the PR to be "eligible" does not mean the applicant should soon, let alone immediately apply then.

 

[Anastasia_17]

@dpenabill Hello! Thanks again for being super helpful to us all during this process. I have a pressing question and wondering if you can advise: 1. Once I meet all the eligibility requirements to apply for citizenship, am I able to apply OUTSIDE Canada or do I need to be physically present to submit my application online? Unfortunately it doesn't state on the cic website in plain language, it just says you can apply once all eligibility requirements are met. I called IRCC and two different agents had to put me on hold to verify this, they came back saying "it should be fine" since you can also write the test outside Canada. However, I am not confident in this response at all. The physical presence calculator asks when you left and when you "returned" up until the day you sign the application. So then what goes in the return field when im outside the country? hm. I need to go back to obtain a police report for my application as I need to do it in person there, I am wondering if its best to apply from here with my expired report and explain in a letter that I will submit the updated through a webform as soon as received (may delay process) or just really take a risk and apply from outside the country with the police report, since they claim i am able to apply from outside. Please please let me know your thoughts. Much appreciated

 

[Temitee002]

@dpenabill Hello! Thanks again for being super helpful to us all during this process. I have a pressing question and wondering if you can advise: 1. Once I meet all the eligibility requirements to apply for citizenship, am I able to apply OUTSIDE Canada or do I need to be physically present to submit my application online? Unfortunately it doesn't state on the cic website in plain language, it just says you can apply once all eligibility requirements are met. I called IRCC and two different agents had to put me on hold to verify this, they came back saying "it should be fine" since you can also write the test outside Canada. However, I am not confident in this response at all. The physical presence calculator asks when you left and when you "returned" up until the day you sign the application. So then what goes in the return field when im outside the country? hm. I need to go back to obtain a police report for my application as I need to do it in person there, I am wondering if its best to apply from here with my expired report and explain in a letter that I will submit the updated through a webform as soon as received (may delay process) or just really take a risk and apply from outside the country with the police report, since they claim i am able to apply from outside. Please please let me know your thoughts. Much appreciated

Just to chime in , but I think you have to be physically present in Canada when you sign and submit your citizenship application as the last page of the online application will ask for your: First name, last name and city where you sign.

But let others also give their opinions as well

 

[dpenabill]

@dpenabill Hello! Thanks again for being super helpful to us all during this process. I have a pressing question and wondering if you can advise: 1. Once I meet all the eligibility requirements to apply for citizenship, am I able to apply OUTSIDE Canada or do I need to be physically present to submit my application online? Unfortunately it doesn't state on the cic website in plain language, it just says you can apply once all eligibility requirements are met. I called IRCC and two different agents had to put me on hold to verify this, they came back saying "it should be fine" since you can also write the test outside Canada. However, I am not confident in this response at all. The physical presence calculator asks when you left and when you "returned" up until the day you sign the application. So then what goes in the return field when im outside the country? hm. I need to go back to obtain a police report for my application as I need to do it in person there, I am wondering if its best to apply from here with my expired report and explain in a letter that I will submit the updated through a webform as soon as received (may delay process) or just really take a risk and apply from outside the country with the police report, since they claim i am able to apply from outside. Please please let me know your thoughts. Much appreciated

I don't know how this goes. There are a number of forum participants who say it cannot be done but a number of others who say it can and offer suggestions on how to deal with this in the application and physical presence calculator. If you scroll through topic headings I think there are multiple topics which are clearly about this.

I also do not know how it might influence the process even if it can be done . . . noting though that there are some obvious risks for someone remaining abroad while the application is pending. But even in regards to the latter, I cannot offer anything approaching probabilities for any applicant in particular.

Unless the individual is on their way outside Canada for a lengthy time, waiting longer to apply is almost always prudent. So unless you are moving abroad (not just traveling, for whatever reason, or just to obtain a police clearance), probably makes good sense to wait until you have returned home, here, to make the application.

Regarding required police clearances: I am not up to date on on this subject, but generally IRCC will not require citizenship applicants to submit documentation they would need to travel abroad to obtain. So, if it is true that you cannot obtain an updated clearance without traveling to another country, that can be explained as the reason why an acceptable clearance cannot be provided. The caveat here is whether or not it is definitely the case that a clearance cannot be obtained without traveling abroad. Note, too, to see IRCC references and links to information about how to obtain clearances from more than a hundred different countries.

If you elect to try submitting an out-of-date clearance (one issued before your last trip there), you can still enter an explanation in the box in the application stating that you are unable to obtain an up-to-date clearance because that would require travel to that country (again, if that is actually the case). That should get the application past the completeness screening. Whether or not IRCC will still request an updated clearance, I do not know. If you travel to that country in the meantime, it will be a good idea to get the clearance and either submit it with a webform or wait to submit it if asked, or at least have it ready to submit later.

 

[Miss bee]

@dpenabill Hello! Thanks again for being super helpful to us all during this process. I have a pressing question and wondering if you can advise: 1. Once I meet all the eligibility requirements to apply for citizenship, am I able to apply OUTSIDE Canada or do I need to be physically present to submit my application online? Unfortunately it doesn't state on the cic website in plain language, it just says you can apply once all eligibility requirements are met. I called IRCC and two different agents had to put me on hold to verify this, they came back saying "it should be fine" since you can also write the test outside Canada. However, I am not confident in this response at all. The physical presence calculator asks when you left and when you "returned" up until the day you sign the application. So then what goes in the return field when im outside the country? hm. I need to go back to obtain a police report for my application as I need to do it in person there, I am wondering if its best to apply from here with my expired report and explain in a letter that I will submit the updated through a webform as soon as received (may delay process) or just really take a risk and apply from outside the country with the police report, since they claim i am able to apply from outside. Please please let me know your thoughts. Much appreciated

No you don’t need to be in Canada to submit application. However, you need to be in Canada for interview and Oath process. Also for test you can give test outside from Canada.

 

[Anastasia_17]

I don't know how this goes. There are a number of forum participants who say it cannot be done but a number of others who say it can and offer suggestions on how to deal with this in the application and physical presence calculator. If you scroll through topic headings I think there are multiple topics which are clearly about this.

I also do not know how it might influence the process even if it can be done . . . noting though that there are some obvious risks for someone remaining abroad while the application is pending. But even in regards to the latter, I cannot offer anything approaching probabilities for any applicant in particular.

Unless the individual is on their way outside Canada for a lengthy time, waiting longer to apply is almost always prudent. So unless you are moving abroad (not just traveling, for whatever reason, or just to obtain a police clearance), probably makes good sense to wait until you have returned home, here, to make the application.

Regarding required police clearances: I am not up to date on on this subject, but generally IRCC will not require citizenship applicants to submit documentation they would need to travel abroad to obtain. So, if it is true that you cannot obtain an updated clearance without traveling to another country, that can be explained as the reason why an acceptable clearance cannot be provided. The caveat here is whether or not it is definitely the case that a clearance cannot be obtained without traveling abroad. Note, too, to see IRCC references and links to information about how to obtain clearances from more than a hundred different countries.

If you elect to try submitting an out-of-date clearance (one issued before your last trip there), you can still enter an explanation in the box in the application stating that you are unable to obtain an up-to-date clearance because that would require travel to that country (again, if that is actually the case). That should get the application past the completeness screening. Whether or not IRCC will still request an updated clearance, I do not know. If you travel to that country in the meantime, it will be a good idea to get the clearance and either submit it with a webform or wait to submit it if asked, or at least have it ready to submit later.

Thanks for the response, Yes this country does not have an online process and its even stated on the cic website that for that country you have to go in person or appoint a rep. for a police cert and I do not have anyone there. I'm guessing that gives me some leverage. Im still unsure whether to apply from Canada or leave and apply from the country where I will be getting the cert from. I will be traveling there anyway in the up coming days but wont return soon. Some people say you must be in Canada, others say you can apply while abroad, tough to make a choice lol. Thanks so much anyway!