Application Returned - Incomplete saying incomplete physical presence

[Cannnada]

@dpenabill
Hope you could shed some light on my situation!
I have another question.
I had work permit between Feb 2018 valid till Sep 2020, I applied for status change as CTO in august 2019 and got the approval on Nov 2019. I received the ITA July 2020 and received PR on Feb 2021. Now in physical presence calculator tool I see my eligibility. ( i have around 300+ days of out of Canada days).
Since I'm the only applicant I proceeded with Online application. There, I see " did you renew your work permit, So I entered the start and end date and selected YES. Added the New Expiry date of Nov 2020.
But It replied " not eligible". It gives me Only 850 Days prior to PR and deducting my OUtside of canada days gives me only 320 days.
Since am applying in July, my count starts from July 2018 to July 2023. Here between July 2018 to Feb 2021 I have 950+ Plus, Between July 2018 to Nov 2020 I have 760+ days. Not sure How its calculating 850 days?
I want to claim full 365 days before PR date actually.
Should I claim work permit end date as Feb 2021. Do you think they will reject?
Once you get your ITA, does the status remains same or its not calculated?
Any idea or clues on how to address this?

 

[SpiritualWonderBoy]

I experienced this inconvenience not only once but twice. My third application was successfully accepted. I wrote a detailed “Letter Of Explanation” and submitted significant evidences regarding my status in Canada prior to becoming PR. They accepted it fortunately after my third re-submission of my application.

I even contacted two MP’s but didn't helped, I just solved this problem by my own. My local MP’s contacted IRCC and CBSA but due to the fact that I made my application online twice, IRCC dont have any record of it (“As they said”) because it was made online and they didn't accepted it or it wasn't granted to be on their databased. My local MP’s exchanged conversation with their liaison in IRCC and CBSA regarding this matter as they are also stress about this matter.

First things I did is that, I requests travel history record from CBSA which I successfully received my whole record and legal duration of stay in Canada prior to becoming PR.

The first local MP that I contacted advised me that if I have a record of my travel history in Canada; they want a copy of it, which I did. I sent them the record and the MP’s office contacted IRCC again and sent the record to them, the IRCC liaison confirmed that the CBSA record that I obtained will help my situation just write an explanation letter.

Because of my explanation letter and the CBSA record I overcome this stress. My application was accepted with over 900 days of PR and over 200 days credit as for my status in Canada prior to becoming PR.

 

[dpenabill]

@dpenabill
Hope you could shed some light on my situation!
I have another question.
I had work permit between Feb 2018 valid till Sep 2020, I applied for status change as CTO in august 2019 and got the approval on Nov 2019. I received the ITA July 2020 and received PR on Feb 2021. Now in physical presence calculator tool I see my eligibility. ( i have around 300+ days of out of Canada days).
Since I'm the only applicant I proceeded with Online application. There, I see " did you renew your work permit, So I entered the start and end date and selected YES. Added the New Expiry date of Nov 2020.
But It replied " not eligible". It gives me Only 850 Days prior to PR and deducting my OUtside of canada days gives me only 320 days.
Since am applying in July, my count starts from July 2018 to July 2023. Here between July 2018 to Feb 2021 I have 950+ Plus, Between July 2018 to Nov 2020 I have 760+ days. Not sure How its calculating 850 days?
I want to claim full 365 days before PR date actually.
Should I claim work permit end date as Feb 2021. Do you think they will reject?
Once you get your ITA, does the status remains same or its not calculated?
Any idea or clues on how to address this?

I am NO expert and am not able to comment much on the calculation of pre-PR credit in your situation. In particular, I am not sufficiently familiar with the various ways in which a Foreign National has Temporary Resident Status in Canada to assess what pre-PR periods of time are entitled to credit toward meeting the grant citizenship actual physical presence requirement.

Additionally I do not quite understand the calculation you are reporting.

Key information necessary for calculation based on application date of July 25, 2023:

-- Number of days IN Canada between landing date in February 2021 and July 25, 2023​

-- Number of days IN Canada between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021​

-- Date from and to for each status permit or visa issued, granting you Temporary Resident status, between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021​

I am not familiar with what status you had related to the approval of CTO.

You ask: "Should I claim work permit end date as Feb 2021?"​

Yes, if you had a work permit that was valid to February 2021, BUT, of course, ONLY IF you had a work permit that was valid to February 2021. Which is so obvious I am a little confused why you ask.

In any event, I do not know what the problem is. My guess is that for some of the time between between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021 what you are submitting into the calculator does not register as a period you had temporary resident status.

REMEMBER to apply with a good margin over the minimum.


Some further Observations:

As @SpiritualWonderBoy has experienced, some of those who apply relying on credit for pre-PR days in Canada encounter difficulty in actually getting the credit, at least as to some of the time period they were in Canada with temporary status.

For some periods of temporary resident status a client's GCMS might not show they had such status. For visitors here pursuant to a visa-exempt passport, for example, it would be common for GCMS to NOT have any record documenting this. Thus, even though the individual is here legally, and has temporary resident status as a visitor, when screening their citizenship application IRCC might not recognize they had status, and thus not credit that time toward meeting the citizenship presence requirement. Can happen relative to periods of implied status. And there are probably other circumstances in which GCMS does not document an individual's status.

Thing is, technically the burden of proving Temporary Resident Status is on the applicant, but practically the existence of such status is almost exclusively confirmed by the client's GCMS records. So, if for some reason the GCMS record does not verify the applicant's temporary status for a period of time, IRCC does not recognize the applicant is entitled to physical presence credit for that period of time.

I am nowhere near familiar enough with the situation described by @SpiritualWonderBoy to comment on it or what it might mean in your situation.

However, where the application is returned or not accepted as incomplete, based on a calculation during completeness screening that does not count all days the applicant claims they should be given credit for pre-PR time in Canada, I believe the applicant can more or less compel IRCC to process the application anyway, and then it will be up to the applicant to persuade the processing agent and citizenship officer they are entitled to credit for that period of time. Note that just because a re-submission with explanation results in the application being accepted for processing does NOT guarantee that the credit will be allowed later in the process when physical presence is verified.

For most, the easy approach is to just wait to apply, recognizing that each day here now will get credit offsetting two days pre-PR. For most the difference between what is readily verified as days with temporary resident status, in GCMS, and a period GCMS does not verify but the applicant is sure they had legal status, is small enough that waiting is not only the more sure approach, but overall is likely to be the faster overall path to taking the oath (presence questions are bound to cause non-routine processing resulting in significantly longer processing timelines).

 

[Cannnada]

I am NO expert and am not able to comment much on the calculation of pre-PR credit in your situation. In particular, I am not sufficiently familiar with the various ways in which a Foreign National has Temporary Resident Status in Canada to assess what pre-PR periods of time are entitled to credit toward meeting the grant citizenship actual physical presence requirement.

Additionally I do not quite understand the calculation you are reporting.

Key information necessary for calculation based on application date of July 25, 2023:

-- Number of days IN Canada between landing date in February 2021 and July 25, 2023​

-- Number of days IN Canada between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021​

-- Date from and to for each status permit or visa issued, granting you Temporary Resident status, between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021​

I am not familiar with what status you had related to the approval of CTO.

You ask: "Should I claim work permit end date as Feb 2021?"​

Yes, if you had a work permit that was valid to February 2021, BUT, of course, ONLY IF you had a work permit that was valid to February 2021. Which is so obvious I am a little confused why you ask.

In any event, I do not know what the problem is. My guess is that for some of the time between between July 25, 2018 and landing date in February 2021 what you are submitting into the calculator does not register as a period you had temporary resident status.

REMEMBER to apply with a good margin over the minimum.


Some further Observations:

As @SpiritualWonderBoy has experienced, some of those who apply relying on credit for pre-PR days in Canada encounter difficulty in actually getting the credit, at least as to some of the time period they were in Canada with temporary status.

For some periods of temporary resident status a client's GCMS might not show they had such status. For visitors here pursuant to a visa-exempt passport, for example, it would be common for GCMS to NOT have any record documenting this. Thus, even though the individual is here legally, and has temporary resident status as a visitor, when screening their citizenship application IRCC might not recognize they had status, and thus not credit that time toward meeting the citizenship presence requirement. Can happen relative to periods of implied status. And there are probably other circumstances in which GCMS does not document an individual's status.

Thing is, technically the burden of proving Temporary Resident Status is on the applicant, but practically the existence of such status is almost exclusively confirmed by the client's GCMS records. So, if for some reason the GCMS record does not verify the applicant's temporary status for a period of time, IRCC does not recognize the applicant is entitled to physical presence credit for that period of time.

I am nowhere near familiar enough with the situation described by @SpiritualWonderBoy to comment on it or what it might mean in your situation.

However, where the application is returned or not accepted as incomplete, based on a calculation during completeness screening that does not count all days the applicant claims they should be given credit for pre-PR time in Canada, I believe the applicant can more or less compel IRCC to process the application anyway, and then it will be up to the applicant to persuade the processing agent and citizenship officer they are entitled to credit for that period of time. Note that just because a re-submission with explanation results in the application being accepted for processing does NOT guarantee that the credit will be allowed later in the process when physical presence is verified.

For most, the easy approach is to just wait to apply, recognizing that each day here now will get credit offsetting two days pre-PR. For most the difference between what is readily verified as days with temporary resident status, in GCMS, and a period GCMS does not verify but the applicant is sure they had legal status, is small enough that waiting is not only the more sure approach, but overall is likely to be the faster overall path to taking the oath (presence questions are bound to cause non-routine processing resulting in significantly longer processing timelines).

Thanks @ dpenabill

"I am not familiar with what status you had related to the approval of CTO. "
I had work permit prior to change of profession, I did change of profession to gain 200 points.
The work permit document had an expiry date of Nov 2020.
Here my doubt is Since my work permit was till Nov 2020 and i was waiting for PR confirmation between expiry date of Nov 2020 and CoPR Feb 2021, could it be that calculator is omitting these days?
Any which way, as per the calculator Im eligible by August end. May be I will wait for couple of months from now and apply it.
Thanks again for the detailed reply.

 

[Miss bee]

I experienced this inconvenience not only once but twice. My third application was successfully accepted. I wrote a detailed “Letter Of Explanation” and submitted significant evidences regarding my status in Canada prior to becoming PR. They accepted it fortunately after my third re-submission of my application.

I even contacted two MP’s but didn't helped, I just solved this problem by my own. My local MP’s contacted IRCC and CBSA but due to the fact that I made my application online twice, IRCC dont have any record of it (“As they said”) because it was made online and they didn't accepted it or it wasn't granted to be on their databased. My local MP’s exchanged conversation with their liaison in IRCC and CBSA regarding this matter as they are also stress about this matter.

First things I did is that, I requests travel history record from CBSA which I successfully received my whole record and legal duration of stay in Canada prior to becoming PR.

The first local MP that I contacted advised me that if I have a record of my travel history in Canada; they want a copy of it, which I did. I sent them the record and the MP’s office contacted IRCC again and sent the record to them, the IRCC liaison confirmed that the CBSA record that I obtained will help my situation just write an explanation letter.

Because of my explanation letter and the CBSA record I overcome this stress. My application was accepted with over 900 days of PR and over 200 days credit as for my status in Canada prior to becoming PR.

What was your status before PR ? Were you on work permit or visitor ?

 

[Cannnada]

Thanks @ dpenabill

"I am not familiar with what status you had related to the approval of CTO. "
I had work permit prior to change of profession, I did change of profession to gain 200 points.
The work permit document had an expiry date of Nov 2020.
Here my doubt is Since my work permit was till Nov 2020 and i was waiting for PR confirmation between expiry date of Nov 2020 and CoPR Feb 2021, could it be that calculator is omitting these days?
Any which way, as per the calculator Im eligible by August end. May be I will wait for couple of months from now and apply it.
Thanks again for the detailed reply.

I see this online.

Q6: Can I use time spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards my physical presence calculation?
A6: No, you cannot use anytime spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards your physical presence calculation.
Temporary resident status includes lawful authorization to enter or remain in Canada as a:

• visitor,
• student,
• worker or,
• temporary resident permit holder

A protected person is someone who:

• was found to be in need of protection or a convention refugee by the Immigration and Refugee Board or,
• a person who received a positive decision on a Pre-Removal Risk Assessment from IRCC.

It seems in my case calculator is not considering the days between Nov 2020 and Feb 2021. I do have a valid Visitor visa btw. Do you think I should write an letter and explain along with application?

 

[Miss bee]

I see this online.

Q6: Can I use time spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards my physical presence calculation?
A6: No, you cannot use anytime spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards your physical presence calculation.
Temporary resident status includes lawful authorization to enter or remain in Canada as a:

• visitor,
• student,
• worker or,
• temporary resident permit holder

A protected person is someone who:

• was found to be in need of protection or a convention refugee by the Immigration and Refugee Board or,
• a person who received a positive decision on a Pre-Removal Risk Assessment from IRCC.

It seems in my case calculator is not considering the days between Nov 2020 and Feb 2021. I do have a valid Visitor visa btw. Do you think I should write an letter and explain along with application?

When you put these days in online calculator doesn’t it give you credit for those days ? What are you selecting for options in drop down menu ?

 

[dpenabill]

I see this online.

Q6: Can I use time spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards my physical presence calculation?
A6: No, you cannot use anytime spent in Canada without the authorized status of temporary resident, protected person or permanent resident towards your physical presence calculation.
Temporary resident status includes lawful authorization to enter or remain in Canada as a:

• visitor,
• student,
• worker or,
• temporary resident permit holder

A protected person is someone who:

• was found to be in need of protection or a convention refugee by the Immigration and Refugee Board or,
• a person who received a positive decision on a Pre-Removal Risk Assessment from IRCC.

It seems in my case calculator is not considering the days between Nov 2020 and Feb 2021. I do have a valid Visitor visa btw. Do you think I should write an letter and explain along with application?

I cannot offer advice. And even someone qualified to offer advice would need to know more details.

The specific "from" date of any permit or visa, and the "to" date, is key, specifically as stated in the permit or visa. Subject to earlier termination (such as when a new permit or visa takes effect, replacing an earlier issued permit or visa).

It is important to get all the dates of whatever permits or visas you were issued right, just as it is crucial to get all dates of entry into Canada and exit from Canada precisely accurate. If you get the dates right, the calculator will properly count the days and calculate credit. But you have to get the dates right, based on the documentation issued by IRCC.

A Foreign National can sometimes be more or less legally in Canada in between periods they are issued formal temporary resident status. Often such periods of time should count (just like a person carrying a visa exempt passport should get credit for time in Canada as a visitor, but might not). What many overlook is that in addition to having the burden of proving actual presence, technically the burden of proving status is also on the applicant . . . so, if there is not a permit or visa specifically issued explicitly covering the period in Canada, and it is not otherwise documented in the individual's GCMS, it can be difficult getting credit for that period of time.

As I mentioned before, yes, applicant's can make explanations and in effect argue they are entitled to credit for these periods of time. How successful such efforts are I cannot guess, as very few have clearly reported their experience trying this all the way to a final outcome. While a few have reported doing this to get their application into processing, as I cautioned before that is no guarantee what the final decision will be, and even if this leads to getting approved and scheduled for the oath, the path getting there can be much longer than if they waited and applied without having to argue (explain) to get credit.

In particular, even if entitled to the credit, the problem is NON-ROUTINE PROCESSING. So, sure, someone can do similar what @SpiritualWonderBoy did and more or less require IRCC to process the application, and even assuming that eventually IRCC is satisfied the applicant is entitled to credit for the questioned period of time, the risk is high that will involve presence-case non-routine processing that could add many months, even a year or more, to the processing timeline.

For many it would make no sense to rush the application only to end up waiting an extra five or six or more months to become a citizen.

How you go about this, however, is for YOU to decide based on your best understanding, making sure to get all dates precisely accurate, including all from-to dates for permits and visas in addition to travel history dates.

And remember to apply with a margin over the minimum. Again, this is about reducing the risk of non-routine processing in order to actually get to taking the oath sooner.

 

[SpiritualWonderBoy]

I cannot offer advice. And even someone qualified to offer advice would need to know more details.

The specific "from" date of any permit or visa, and the "to" date, is key, specifically as stated in the permit or visa. Subject to earlier termination (such as when a new permit or visa takes effect, replacing an earlier issued permit or visa).

It is important to get all the dates of whatever permits or visas you were issued right, just as it is crucial to get all dates of entry into Canada and exit from Canada precisely accurate. If you get the dates right, the calculator will properly count the days and calculate credit. But you have to get the dates right, based on the documentation issued by IRCC.

A Foreign National can sometimes be more or less legally in Canada in between periods they are issued formal temporary resident status. Often such periods of time should count (just like a person carrying a visa exempt passport should get credit for time in Canada as a visitor, but might not). What many overlook is that in addition to having the burden of proving actual presence, technically the burden of proving status is also on the applicant . . . so, if there is not a permit or visa specifically issued explicitly covering the period in Canada, and it is not otherwise documented in the individual's GCMS, it can be difficult getting credit for that period of time.

As I mentioned before, yes, applicant's can make explanations and in effect argue they are entitled to credit for these periods of time. How successful such efforts are I cannot guess, as very few have clearly reported their experience trying this all the way to a final outcome. While a few have reported doing this to get their application into processing, as I cautioned before that is no guarantee what the final decision will be, and even if this leads to getting approved and scheduled for the oath, the path getting there can be much longer than if they waited and applied without having to argue (explain) to get credit.

In particular, even if entitled to the credit, the problem is NON-ROUTINE PROCESSING. So, sure, someone can do similar what @SpiritualWonderBoy did and more or less require IRCC to process the application, and even assuming that eventually IRCC is satisfied the applicant is entitled to credit for the questioned period of time, the risk is high that will involve presence-case non-routine processing that could add many months, even a year or more, to the processing timeline.

For many it would make no sense to rush the application only to end up waiting an extra five or six or more months to become a citizen.

How you go about this, however, is for YOU to decide based on your best understanding, making sure to get all dates precisely accurate, including all from-to dates for permits and visas in addition to travel history dates.

And remember to apply with a margin over the minimum. Again, this is about reducing the risk of non-routine processing in order to actually get to taking the oath sooner.

I appreciate the inputs you are giving in regards to this matter. However; based on my experienced with my application right now, my application was not deemed non-routine. My background check and security clearance was completed only within 5 business days after receiving AOR. I am waiting now for my test-invite.

Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary.

As of today, my files is under normal processing time. I will update everyone in this thread if I get update regarding my application.

 

[Miss bee]

I appreciate the inputs you are giving in regards to this matter. However; based on my experienced with my application right now, my application was not deemed non-routine. My background check and security clearance was completed only within 5 business days after receiving AOR. I am waiting now for my test-invite.

Assuming that you applied for citizenship with pre-PR will not gonna caused your application to be non-routine because the pre-PR status in Canada is a legal status as states in IRCC glossary.

As of today, my files is under normal processing time. I will update everyone in this thread if I get update regarding my application.

What is your status on online tracker? Does it shows your background verification completed?

 

[SpiritualWonderBoy]

What is your status on online tracker? Does it shows your background verification completed?

Yes it states COMPLETED.

 

[Cannnada]

When you put these days in online calculator doesn’t it give you credit for those days ? What are you selecting for options in drop down menu ?

@Miss bee
In drop down, the options are Visitor, Temp foreign worker, Int student, temp resident holder.
Right now, I selected Temp foreign worker.

 

[Miss bee]

@Miss bee
In drop down, the options are Visitor, Temp foreign worker, Int student, temp resident holder.
Right now, I selected Temp foreign worker.

Aren’t you visitor before your PR ?

 

[Cannnada]

Aren’t you visitor before your PR ?

NO, I had work permit til Nov 2020, My CoPR was in in Feb 2021.

 

[Miss bee]

NO, I had work permit til Nov 2020, My CoPR was in in Feb 2021.

Aren’t you more than 1095 even if you don’t include implied or maintained status days you are way like 4 months above 1095 days ?