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PR expired in 2007- applying for renewal on H&C grounds

mjuss

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May 24, 2023
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In this case it is a GOOD thing if you have had passport stamped or got the dated study permit at the border. That shows you entered on that date.

The SIN you have - was that a SIN issued to you as a student, or one from before?

I think you should not be paying international freight, and as a PR you should have a permanent SIN#.

So one step at a time. You'll want to collect your documents etc, whatever you had before, like PR card and landing papers.

Interesting situation.
I do have all my documents ready. The reason for reaching out on this forum was that I was wondering if now is a good time to file for my renewal, since I have been here already, through 100% legal pathways. If I forgot to mention before, in the statement of interest for my study permit application, I had stated clearly that I am a PR holder, including the dates of arrival and departure from Canada when I first came in 2007.
This is what made me believe that the chances of refusal of my PR card are less because I am just asking for my PR status to be active again.
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I do have all my documents ready. The reason for reaching out on this forum was that I was wondering if now is a good time to file for my renewal, since I have been here already, through 100% legal pathways. If I forgot to mention before, in the statement of interest for my study permit application, I had stated clearly that I am a PR holder, including the dates of arrival and departure from Canada when I first came in 2007.
This is what made me believe that the chances of refusal of my PR card are less because I am just asking for my PR status to be active again.
[I repeat my question about the SIN# - was this one you had from before, i.e. that your parents would have obtained for you, or that you got as a student?]

-So first: you may want to hire a lawyer for a consultation. Because ultimately it is your decision, and your risk.

-I think broadly the advice you've been given here (i.e. basically to stay until you have 730 days in Canada before taking steps such as applying for PR renewal) is taking a path that is the absolute safest with regard to obtaining and keeping your PR status.

-It has costs and inconveniences - both monetary and other, such as not travelling - that are not insignificant. Or trade-offs in some respects (eg the hypothetical reduction in tuition fees vs possibility you might end up having to hire a lawyer) that can't be quantified precisely because only probabilities.

-We may be overestimating risks. Hard to say.

-In that context, trying to find out - from questions and your answers - what the risks may be. As I mentioned, it's possible you'd be able to get/establish some of the benefits of PR without making the early app for PR renewal. Also it's possible your answers would make it more clear the risks are low or high. And I think it's very likely that knowing the answers to some of these thigns will help you in laying out your situation to a lawyer (shoudl you need or decide to).

So apologies but a few more:
-you mention thatyou had stated in your study permit app that you're a PR - did this come up in any interaction with government after that? Like at border especially, did the CBSA officer mention this (or did you bring it up in conversation)? Do you have copies of the study permit app that you made?
 

scylla

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I do have all my documents ready. The reason for reaching out on this forum was that I was wondering if now is a good time to file for my renewal, since I have been here already, through 100% legal pathways. If I forgot to mention before, in the statement of interest for my study permit application, I had stated clearly that I am a PR holder, including the dates of arrival and departure from Canada when I first came in 2007.
This is what made me believe that the chances of refusal of my PR card are less because I am just asking for my PR status to be active again.
I personally think your best option is to wait until you have 730 residency days in Canada within the last five years before you apply to renew your PR card. Otherwise you need to apply under H&C which carries more risks.

I find it very strange that you mentioned the PR bit in your study permit application and yet they didn't question this or do anything about it. That's just flat out odd. If they agreed you were PR, the study permit should not have been issued (PRs don't qualify for study permits). Anyway, maybe just a very big error on their part. Not sure what to think about that.

Note that you are NOT asking for your PR status to be active again. You will be applying for a new PR card. If you are still a PR, then your PR status is active. There's no such thing as inactive PR status.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I personally think your best option is to wait until you have 730 residency days in Canada within the last five years before you apply to renew your PR card. Otherwise you need to apply under H&C which carries more risks.
Want to underline that this is my base position as well - that there is no question that the safest way is to wait and apply later. If you can live with things like the tuition fees and not travelling, this is by far the lowest risk.
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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How old was your sister when she received the PRTD based on H&C? If you are 23 at the moment it may be harder to get approved for PR card renewal based on H&C. The process often takes over a year so isn’t going to lead to the major benefit for your situation which would be paying domestic fees. By the time you hear about your PR card renewal based on H&C you should have already graduated. I am surprised that you weren’t even flagged at any point in the process as a PR. A bit scary how poor the system is. You mention that your PR card expired in 2017 so it must have been renewed once is that correct? To apply to renew a PR card you need to be in Canada. To get a new PR card while living abroad you are usually required to pick it up in person. There are quite a few things that don’t add up or else IRCC overlooked a lot of issues when it comes to compliance and/or following rules when it comes to your case.
 

armoured

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The process often takes over a year so isn’t going to lead to the major benefit for your situation which would be paying domestic fees. By the time you hear about your PR card renewal based on H&C you should have already graduated.
I agree here that it may not be possible to switch to paying domestic fees in a reasonable timeline. BUT: the assumption underlying this that getting the PR card is the only way to qualify to pay domestic fees is false.

That doesn't mean the alternatives are easy or clear, and it depends somewhat on the province and institution, but it is worth exploring what documentation may be acceptable.

For example - for starters - it would be worth asking the school whether the PR card from 2017 would be accepted.
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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I agree here that it may not be possible to switch to paying domestic fees in a reasonable timeline. BUT: the assumption underlying this that getting the PR card is the only way to qualify to pay domestic fees is false.

That doesn't mean the alternatives are easy or clear, and it depends somewhat on the province and institution, but it is worth exploring what documentation may be acceptable.

For example - for starters - it would be worth asking the school whether the PR card from 2017 would be accepted.
I have doubts whether PR status is still valid because a PR card from 2017 should have come up when processing a study permit application. How does this person have a valid PR card from 2017 if they left in 2007?
 
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Ponga

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I have doubts whether PR status is still valid because a PR card from 2017 should have come up when processing a study permit application. How does this person have a valid PR card from 2017 if they left in 2007?
Excellent observation. OP became a PR in 2007, left Canada and was not able to meet the R.O., yet states that "the card got expired in 2017"?
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I have doubts whether PR status is still valid because a PR card from 2017 should have come up when processing a study permit application. How does this person have a valid PR card from 2017 if they left in 2007?
1) I see no logical link between the doubt about PR status being valid and whether there's something inconsistent about leaving in 2007 / card from 2017. Perhaps there is one, but 'having doubts' without some explanation isn't one.

2) That's yet another and separate claim from the 'need a valid PR card to qualify for domestic tuition'.

Perfectly valid to think there's something wrong or dodgy that hasn't been clarified in this case. But perhaps that could be kept separate from other logical but factually wrong claims.
 

mjuss

Member
May 24, 2023
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I would like to clarify a few points here:
1. The PR card I received in 2007 had validity till 2012. Not 2017. I was wrong about the year. This validity is what I am talking about when I stated above that my status is "inactive"
2. The SIN number I have right now is a new one, not the old one. I do not know if I had a SIN back then.
3. Paying domestic tuition isn't a prime concern, the main reason the renewal of my PR would help me is in my future and career.
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I would like to clarify a few points here:
1. The PR card I received in 2007 had validity till 2012. Not 2017. I was wrong about the year. This validity is what I am talking about when I stated above that my status is "inactive"
2. The SIN number I have right now is a new one, not the old one. I do not know if I had a SIN back then.
3. Paying domestic tuition isn't a prime concern, the main reason the renewal of my PR would help me is in my future and career.
Thanks for clarifying about the 2017/2007, presume that was a typo (it happens).

1. I believe the point made by someone else is that you can possess a valid card, or not, but PR status itself has no such concept - and what it does have is not linked (directly) to the card. Your PR card is not your status. There are only* permanent residents, Canadian citizens, and foreign nationals (a permanent resident is not a foreign national under law). So you are a PR even if you do not have a valid card. (Yes, there is more to this like a PR that is out of compliance with the RO, a PR who's been declared inadmissible, and there are foreign nationals with different status in Canada, etc., but those nuances are distinct from this classificiation.)
2. So the 'new' SIN you received is almost certainly a temporary one, the type given to temporary workers, students, etc. The question remains whether you got one when you were in Canada as a child - it is now basically standard practice to get one for children, since it links to benefits and some other matters, but before, this was less common (was seen as only related to employment). You should ask your parents if they ever got you one - if they did, it might make life substantially simpler for you. (I presume there is a way to request this if they know they got it but don't recall, but one step at a time).
3. That is good to know (and good for you in that you can continue your studies) - but it may be a useful wedge because, ultimately, if you can demonstrate to one level of govt you are a PR, you might be able to lever that elsewhere. And also save you some money - as a PR, you really shouldn't have to pay that.

I'm going to look, there is somewhere here info or a link to who must pay tuition in Ontario at domestic rates, and it's written somewhat differently than one might expect. Contrary to what one might think, the implication is that potentially one does not need a valid PR card for that purpose. I'll try to find it, may take a bit.

The SIN issue is related - and similarly a potential wedge - in that the law makes it clear that PRs have the right to work, period, and since a SIN is required to work, they can't deny you one. (I believe somewhere in the law or regs it's also the case that a PR should not work under a temporary SIN, that is, a SIN granted to a foreign national.) But the thorn for many in your case - Service Canada, at least in their offices, requires docs that you don't have (usually a PR card or recent COPR).

As I recall, someone here had success recently by applying by mail, after being refused at the Service Canada office. In fact it was a bit of a surprise as it was a non-event, they just got the SIN by mail after the normal delay of a month or so. And in your case, I believe that doing so would be beneficial for you and is without risk to your status (you have, by law, a right to work [as a PR and not just as a student], regardless of your compliance with the RO), as getting the SIN should not trigger anything at IRCC.

Have you spoken to a lawyer at all? Ritual statement I'm not a lawyer. A lawyer's services may not be free, but if you can get tuition at domestic rate, it would pay for itself (probably a couple times over).




*As far as I'm aware, in this context at least. I realize now that there may be some distinctions about certain Canadian/North American native peoples that I'm not well versed in, plus relation to the Indian Act, but I'm not even going to try to go there.
 

mjuss

Member
May 24, 2023
12
0
Thanks for clarifying about the 2017/2007, presume that was a typo (it happens).

1. I believe the point made by someone else is that you can possess a valid card, or not, but PR status itself has no such concept - and what it does have is not linked (directly) to the card. Your PR card is not your status. There are only* permanent residents, Canadian citizens, and foreign nationals (a permanent resident is not a foreign national under law). So you are a PR even if you do not have a valid card. (Yes, there is more to this like a PR that is out of compliance with the RO, a PR who's been declared inadmissible, and there are foreign nationals with different status in Canada, etc., but those nuances are distinct from this classificiation.)
2. So the 'new' SIN you received is almost certainly a temporary one, the type given to temporary workers, students, etc. The question remains whether you got one when you were in Canada as a child - it is now basically standard practice to get one for children, since it links to benefits and some other matters, but before, this was less common (was seen as only related to employment). You should ask your parents if they ever got you one - if they did, it might make life substantially simpler for you. (I presume there is a way to request this if they know they got it but don't recall, but one step at a time).
3. That is good to know (and good for you in that you can continue your studies) - but it may be a useful wedge because, ultimately, if you can demonstrate to one level of govt you are a PR, you might be able to lever that elsewhere. And also save you some money - as a PR, you really shouldn't have to pay that.

I'm going to look, there is somewhere here info or a link to who must pay tuition in Ontario at domestic rates, and it's written somewhat differently than one might expect. Contrary to what one might think, the implication is that potentially one does not need a valid PR card for that purpose. I'll try to find it, may take a bit.

The SIN issue is related - and similarly a potential wedge - in that the law makes it clear that PRs have the right to work, period, and since a SIN is required to work, they can't deny you one. (I believe somewhere in the law or regs it's also the case that a PR should not work under a temporary SIN, that is, a SIN granted to a foreign national.) But the thorn for many in your case - Service Canada, at least in their offices, requires docs that you don't have (usually a PR card or recent COPR).

As I recall, someone here had success recently by applying by mail, after being refused at the Service Canada office. In fact it was a bit of a surprise as it was a non-event, they just got the SIN by mail after the normal delay of a month or so. And in your case, I believe that doing so would be beneficial for you and is without risk to your status (you have, by law, a right to work [as a PR and not just as a student], regardless of your compliance with the RO), as getting the SIN should not trigger anything at IRCC.

Have you spoken to a lawyer at all? Ritual statement I'm not a lawyer. A lawyer's services may not be free, but if you can get tuition at domestic rate, it would pay for itself (probably a couple times over).




*As far as I'm aware, in this context at least. I realize now that there may be some distinctions about certain Canadian/North American native peoples that I'm not well versed in, plus relation to the Indian Act, but I'm not even going to try to go there.
Thank you very much for the detailed response. I agree that I have the right to pay domestic fees, and not overpay international fees. But the problem here is, that the fees has already been paid. The course I am currently in is a one-year program and the tuition has been paid for in full. This money won't be reverted back to me by the university, or rather may be extremely difficult. So for now, I am considering this as a sunk cost. I may get to this later, to appeal to my university, perhaps with the assistance of a lawyer. (but only after I get a renewed PR card)

Also, to clarify, the discrepancy of dates wasn't between 2007/2017. It was between 2012/2017. This was a miscommunication between me and my family, and the year got messed up.

The clarified timeline is:

Arrived in Canada as a kid with PR → 2007
Returned to home country→ 2007
PR card validity date→ 2017
Applied for study permit→ 2022
Arrived in Canada on study permit→ 2022

In view of the above facts, and considering that I was unaware that I still hold PR status after 2017, I have decided on applying for a renewal. I will attach a letter of explanation, illustrating the details of my stay, reasons for leaving, and my innocence as a minor when my parents decided to leave Canada. I haven't done anything illegal, and am hopeful that my case comes off as strong and that the result is in my favor.
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Thank you very much for the detailed response. I agree that I have the right to pay domestic fees, and not overpay international fees. But the problem here is, that the fees has already been paid. The course I am currently in is a one-year program and the tuition has been paid for in full. This money won't be reverted back to me by the university, or rather may be extremely difficult. So for now, I am considering this as a sunk cost. I may get to this later, to appeal to my university, perhaps with the assistance of a lawyer. (but only after I get a renewed PR card)

Also, to clarify, the discrepancy of dates wasn't between 2007/2017. It was between 2012/2017. This was a miscommunication between me and my family, and the year got messed up.

The clarified timeline is:

Arrived in Canada as a kid with PR → 2007
Returned to home country→ 2007
PR card validity date→ 2017
Applied for study permit→ 2022
Arrived in Canada on study permit→ 2022

In view of the above facts, and considering that I was unaware that I still hold PR status after 2017, I have decided on applying for a renewal. I will attach a letter of explanation, illustrating the details of my stay, reasons for leaving, and my innocence as a minor when my parents decided to leave Canada. I haven't done anything illegal, and am hopeful that my case comes off as strong and that the result is in my favor.
Your PR Card expired in 2012, not 2017, correct?

The puzzling part is that if you are still shown as having PR status in IRCC's system, why was the study permit issued? Is it possible that sometime after the date your PR card expired, 11 years ago, your parents received communication from IRCC regarding your PR status?
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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Thank you very much for the detailed response. I agree that I have the right to pay domestic fees, and not overpay international fees. But the problem here is, that the fees has already been paid.
I didn't realize was a one-year program, I was referring mostly to fees yet to be paid. I don't know if it would be possible to get fees reimbursed to you after the fact (and would assume probably not).


In view of the above facts, and considering that I was unaware that I still hold PR status after 2017, I have decided on applying for a renewal. I will attach a letter of explanation, illustrating the details of my stay, reasons for leaving, and my innocence as a minor when my parents decided to leave Canada. I haven't done anything illegal, and am hopeful that my case comes off as strong and that the result is in my favor.
I'd reiterate my previous comments: I strongly suggest at least consulting a lawyer before submitting for a renewal. As we've said, the safest course of action is to wait until back in compliance.