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Returning while not meeting RO - any recent experiences?

stan_shk

Member
Jun 14, 2021
11
0
Hello, I have a question about arriving in Canada on PR (PR card still valid), having missed the RO and am considering traveling. I have read extensively on the forum about different scenarios and likelihoods, experiences. I have two specific questions —
  1. If a PR in breach of RO is indeed issued a Removal Order (A44), I understand the PR holder gets 30 days to appeal it, after which (if not appealed), the Removal order becomes enforced. The PR holder then additionally gets 30 days to depart.
    Question: If the PR holder departs within the first 30 days (i.e. does not appeal, and leaves Canada well within the 30 days given to appeal), is the Removal Order then technically considered as not enforced, and, in future visa applications (to anywhere), when asked the standard question “Have you been removed from any country”, would an accurate response then be a “No”?
  2. Question: During a primary or secondary interview at POE, due to missing the RO, can the PR holder voluntarily relinquish the PR if he/she prefers doing so and apply for a temp status? Or, is it at the discretion of the interviewer to allow the PR holder to voluntarily relinquish their PR? (i.e. can the interviewer disagree to the PR holder's request to voluntarily relinquish their PR during the process, and still issue them a departure order?)
Cheers.
 
Last edited:

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Hello, I have a question about arriving in Canada on PR (PR card still valid), having missed the RO and am considering traveling. I have read extensively on the forum about different scenarios and likelihoods, experiences. I have two specific questions —
  1. If a PR in breach of RO is indeed issued a Removal Order (A44), I understand the PR holder gets 30 days to appeal it, after which (if not appealed), the Removal order becomes enforced. The PR holder then additionally gets 30 days to depart.
    Question: If the PR holder departs within the first 30 days (i.e. does not appeal, and leaves Canada), is the Removal Order then technically considered as not enforced, and, in future visa applications (to anywhere), when asked the standard question “Have you been removed from any country”, would an accurate response then be a “No”?
  2. Question: During a primary or secondary interview at POE, due to missing the RO, can the PR holder voluntarily relinquish the PR if he/she prefers doing so and apply for a temp status? Or, is it at the discretion of the interviewer to allow the PR holder to voluntarily relinquish their PR? (i.e. can the interviewer disagree to the PR holder's request to voluntarily relinquish their PR during the process?)
Cheers.
Can't really speak much to your first question, so will defer to others.

For the second question, I would suggest that you NOT apply to renounce your PR. As a PR, you cannot be denied entry into Canada unless there is already a Removal Order that has been issued (making you inadmissible). An officer can ask you to reconsider your desire to relinquish PR status, but cannot refuse your request if you choose to move forward with that option.

If you are issued a 44(1) by CBSA, you are still allowed to enter Canada pending the appeal.

If you are allowed to renter Canada and are NOT issued a 44(1), it would be in your best interest to remain in Canada until you are in compliance with the Residency Obligation before leaving.
 
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bricksonly

Hero Member
Mar 18, 2018
434
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Hello, I have a question about arriving in Canada on PR (PR card still valid), having missed the RO and am considering traveling. I have read extensively on the forum about different scenarios and likelihoods, experiences. I have two specific questions —
  1. If a PR in breach of RO is indeed issued a Removal Order (A44), I understand the PR holder gets 30 days to appeal it, after which (if not appealed), the Removal order becomes enforced. The PR holder then additionally gets 30 days to depart.
    Question: If the PR holder departs within the first 30 days (i.e. does not appeal, and leaves Canada well within the 30 days given to appeal), is the Removal Order then technically considered as not enforced, and, in future visa applications (to anywhere), when asked the standard question “Have you been removed from any country”, would an accurate response then be a “No”?
  2. Question: During a primary or secondary interview at POE, due to missing the RO, can the PR holder voluntarily relinquish the PR if he/she prefers doing so and apply for a temp status? Or, is it at the discretion of the interviewer to allow the PR holder to voluntarily relinquish their PR? (i.e. can the interviewer disagree to the PR holder's request to voluntarily relinquish their PR during the process, and still issue them a departure order?)
Cheers.
Guess only @dpenabill the great can answer this.
But my feeling is, you don't need to act when a report was filed 44(1); and a Removal Order will come; you can appeal or not. If you appeal and win, the Removal Order is cancelled, otherwise, it enforces, doesn't matter you leave without appeal or leave after a fail appeal.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
I go into some depth here because it touches a much broader issue: the extent to which Canada expects immigration applicants to be forthcoming, to disclose so Canadian officials can assess the significance of past events.

Hello, I have a question about arriving in Canada on PR (PR card still valid), having missed the RO and am considering traveling. I have read extensively on the forum about different scenarios and likelihoods, experiences. I have two specific questions
If a PR in breach of RO is indeed issued a Removal Order (A44), I understand the PR holder gets 30 days to appeal it, after which (if not appealed), the Removal order becomes enforced. The PR holder then additionally gets 30 days to depart.
Question: If the PR holder departs within the first 30 days (i.e. does not appeal, and leaves Canada well within the 30 days given to appeal), is the Removal Order then technically considered as not enforced, and, in future visa applications (to anywhere), when asked the standard question “Have you been removed from any country”, would an accurate response then be a “No”?

For applications made to countries other than Canada, I do NOT know what they ask, or what they expect. How to answer the question asked will very much depend on the question itself. Questions for which a Removal Order might be relevant are likely to vary considerably. As I address below, I do not accept that Have you been removed from any country is a standard question, even though similar questions are very common.

For Canada:

The short answer is probably, usually, YES. That is, if issued a Removal Order, that is something that typically will need to be disclosed in many immigration-related applications. Even if the soon-to-be-Foreign-National (former PR) leaves Canada before the date the Removal Order becomes effective. Note, after all, absent a successful appeal the Removal Order will still become effective, that is, take effect, or as sometimes referenced, become "enforceable" (whether or not one would say it has been "enforced"), thus terminating the individual's PR status, even if they left Canada prior to the date the Removal Order became effective or enforceable.

In the Canadian immigration context disclosing this should NOT be a big deal, NOT a problem. The person applying for a visa provides details which should very easily resolve any issues, and which will be readily verified in the individual's GCMS records. However, the individual may need to apply for and obtain an Authorization to Return to Canada (ARC); this should be NO problem, even though there is a substantial fee, as long as the former PR in fact left Canada timely. (Very different from scenarios in which a Removal Order has been issued based on inadmissibility for criminality, security concerns, or immigration violations including overstays, situations in which obtaining an ARC can be problematic -- remember, RO non-compliance is NOT about violating any immigration law or rules.)

Note: if there is an appeal, the Removal Order does not take effect while the appeal is pending.

It is a little more complicated a question if there is a successful appeal, one resulting in the Removal Order being set aside. Some may quite reasonably advocate that an IAD decision setting aside the 44(1) Report and Removal Order has the effect of voiding the order, making it as if it never happened.

Which leads to a quibble with the question: Despite what appears to be some standardization of questions, what is actually asked can, and often does vary considerably, both in terms of what is precisely asked, and in regards to how to answer it in context according to the laws, rules, and language employed in the jurisdiction doing the asking. I do not know much about what countries other than Canada ask, but at least in Canada the question is very often NOT asked or framed this way:
Have you been removed from any country?”​

In contrast, the background declaration for a PR visa application, for example, asks whether the applicant has ever . . .
". . . been refused admission to, or ordered to leave, Canada or any other country or territory?"​

The prohibitions questions asked in an application for citizenship include this:
"Are you now, or have you ever been, under a removal order (have you been asked by Canadian officials to leave Canada)?"​

These questions are NOT framed in technical terms. My best sense is this is very deliberate. What, for example, does "under" a removal order mean? And "asked to leave," wow, that's broad and open ended. "Ordered to leave" (language used in PR visa application forms) is more precise, but still wide open to variable interpretations. These questions are, for sure, not limited to scenarios where the individual had been physically taken, accompanied by armed officers, to the border, or to be put on a plane.

Again, I do not know about other countries, but in the context of immigration Canada approaches background questions very broadly, more or less demanding disclosure far beyond the parameters of what will negatively affect the applicant. Canada wants immigration applicants to be very forthcoming so that Canadian officials can consider and weigh the significance, so Canadian officials can decide if it is something that should affect whether the individual is given status in Canada, temporary or otherwise.


All of which strays well beyond the question asked here, which is essentially asking what it means if the affected PR leaves Canada before a Removal Order takes effect. For which there is a very short answer: it means they complied with the order, but that does not alter or eliminate the force and effect, let alone the mere existence, of that order.


Question: During a primary or secondary interview at POE, due to missing the RO, can the PR holder voluntarily relinquish the PR if he/she prefers doing so and apply for a temp status? Or, is it at the discretion of the interviewer to allow the PR holder to voluntarily relinquish their PR? (i.e. can the interviewer disagree to the PR holder's request to voluntarily relinquish their PR during the process, and still issue them a departure order?)

Whether or not it is wise, or not so wise, to renounce PR status given the particular individual's circumstances, yes, an inadmissible PR can voluntarily renounce/relinquish their PR status during a PoE examination, and make an application for temporary status. How cooperative border officials will be in facilitating this I cannot forecast.

There is no guarantee temporary status will be granted. Depending on the passport the traveler is carrying, and depending on the type of temporary status the traveler is applying for, border officials might not even have the authority to grant temporary status to some travelers. Travelers with visa-exempt passports will likely be granted at least visitor status, but that can be for a rather short duration (border officials can limit authorized stay to way, way less than visa-exempt travelers would otherwise be allowed).

If the primary objective is to avoid having a Removal Order issued, to avoid having that on your record, so to say, I cannot offer much in the way of pros and cons, other than to reiterate that a Removal Order based on inadmissibility for a RO breach is very, very different from a Removal Order issued based on grounds of criminality, security, or immigration violations.
 

Mpup87

Full Member
Jan 7, 2017
25
2
As your wife has a valid pr card and accompanys you, when go through the land poe, just tell the agent your card is under renewal but you has to leave the country for medical reason, I guess everything should be fine. You could be reported or not, but thing won't turn worse.
If you can drive your own car and passing the poe, that's the most easy option. You make your situation very common. To some degree, people coming from us by land driving their own vehicle makes agent much comfortable to wave you in. My personal tips.
My cousins nad his wife are coming to pick me and my wife. Will that make a difference. Since i dont have my own car.
Thanks
 

Besram

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2019
251
182
My cousins nad his wife are coming to pick me and my wife. Will that make a difference. Since i dont have my own car.
Thanks
Doesn't matter as long as it is a private vehicle. Just can't be public transit, e.g. bus or train.
 

texstay

Newbie
May 31, 2023
1
0
Hi,
I was in a similar situation and lost my permanent residency 2 months ago when I got back to Canada at YUL.
Well to give you an idea I had only spent 95 days in Canada in the last of 5 years when I landed at YUL.

Border agents will check your willingness to stay in Canada, not sure exactly on which bases they make an opinion but having a job, family members would obviously help. Also something that I think helps but was not told explicitly is if you fly back to Canada and don't have any return ticket, so I would suggest to book only a one way flight.

And if you still have a job, housing in your country of origin well any form of attachment, I would also suggest that you don't tell them the whole truth or really downplay it... except maybe for family members if you want them to join you at some point.
I had been honest and it played against me from what I understood.

But if you have less than 100 days (I heard a senior border agent talk to the rookie one in charge of my case and give that number) your chances will be low.

I had read here old stories of people being allowed without being reported but I noticed that they almost always came back to Canada through the land border. I might be wrong and did not experience it myself but I think border agents at land borders might be more permissive especially since they might be understaffed or having to deal with more serious issues...

If you are reported you have 30 days to appeal on humanitarian and compassionate reasons ( I did not) and if you don't appeal you have 60 days to leave the country ( which I did).

Hi there, just curious how do people know if they are reported, will the CBSA officer clearly state they will be reported or present a document paper and ask them to sign to confirm?
 

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
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Hi there, just curious how do people know if they are reported, will the CBSA officer clearly state they will be reported or present a document paper and ask them to sign to confirm?
From what I saw in the forum, usually people were told to sign a document if they are reported by CBSA.
 

stan_shk

Member
Jun 14, 2021
11
0
I go into some depth here because it touches a much broader issue: the extent to which Canada expects immigration applicants to be forthcoming, to disclose so Canadian officials can assess the significance of past events.



If a PR in breach of RO is indeed issued a Removal Order (A44), I understand the PR holder gets 30 days to appeal it, after which (if not appealed), the Removal order becomes enforced. The PR holder then additionally gets 30 days to depart.
Question: If the PR holder departs within the first 30 days (i.e. does not appeal, and leaves Canada well within the 30 days given to appeal), is the Removal Order then technically considered as not enforced, and, in future visa applications (to anywhere), when asked the standard question “Have you been removed from any country”, would an accurate response then be a “No”?

For applications made to countries other than Canada, I do NOT know what they ask, or what they expect. How to answer the question asked will very much depend on the question itself. Questions for which a Removal Order might be relevant are likely to vary considerably. As I address below, I do not accept that Have you been removed from any country is a standard question, even though similar questions are very common.

For Canada:

The short answer is probably, usually, YES. That is, if issued a Removal Order, that is something that typically will need to be disclosed in many immigration-related applications. Even if the soon-to-be-Foreign-National (former PR) leaves Canada before the date the Removal Order becomes effective. Note, after all, absent a successful appeal the Removal Order will still become effective, that is, take effect, or as sometimes referenced, become "enforceable" (whether or not one would say it has been "enforced"), thus terminating the individual's PR status, even if they left Canada prior to the date the Removal Order became effective or enforceable.

In the Canadian immigration context disclosing this should NOT be a big deal, NOT a problem. The person applying for a visa provides details which should very easily resolve any issues, and which will be readily verified in the individual's GCMS records. However, the individual may need to apply for and obtain an Authorization to Return to Canada (ARC); this should be NO problem, even though there is a substantial fee, as long as the former PR in fact left Canada timely. (Very different from scenarios in which a Removal Order has been issued based on inadmissibility for criminality, security concerns, or immigration violations including overstays, situations in which obtaining an ARC can be problematic -- remember, RO non-compliance is NOT about violating any immigration law or rules.)

Note: if there is an appeal, the Removal Order does not take effect while the appeal is pending.

It is a little more complicated a question if there is a successful appeal, one resulting in the Removal Order being set aside. Some may quite reasonably advocate that an IAD decision setting aside the 44(1) Report and Removal Order has the effect of voiding the order, making it as if it never happened.

Which leads to a quibble with the question: Despite what appears to be some standardization of questions, what is actually asked can, and often does vary considerably, both in terms of what is precisely asked, and in regards to how to answer it in context according to the laws, rules, and language employed in the jurisdiction doing the asking. I do not know much about what countries other than Canada ask, but at least in Canada the question is very often NOT asked or framed this way:
Have you been removed from any country?”​

In contrast, the background declaration for a PR visa application, for example, asks whether the applicant has ever . . .
". . . been refused admission to, or ordered to leave, Canada or any other country or territory?"​

The prohibitions questions asked in an application for citizenship include this:
"Are you now, or have you ever been, under a removal order (have you been asked by Canadian officials to leave Canada)?"​

These questions are NOT framed in technical terms. My best sense is this is very deliberate. What, for example, does "under" a removal order mean? And "asked to leave," wow, that's broad and open ended. "Ordered to leave" (language used in PR visa application forms) is more precise, but still wide open to variable interpretations. These questions are, for sure, not limited to scenarios where the individual had been physically taken, accompanied by armed officers, to the border, or to be put on a plane.

Again, I do not know about other countries, but in the context of immigration Canada approaches background questions very broadly, more or less demanding disclosure far beyond the parameters of what will negatively affect the applicant. Canada wants immigration applicants to be very forthcoming so that Canadian officials can consider and weigh the significance, so Canadian officials can decide if it is something that should affect whether the individual is given status in Canada, temporary or otherwise.


All of which strays well beyond the question asked here, which is essentially asking what it means if the affected PR leaves Canada before a Removal Order takes effect. For which there is a very short answer: it means they complied with the order, but that does not alter or eliminate the force and effect, let alone the mere existence, of that order.


Question: During a primary or secondary interview at POE, due to missing the RO, can the PR holder voluntarily relinquish the PR if he/she prefers doing so and apply for a temp status? Or, is it at the discretion of the interviewer to allow the PR holder to voluntarily relinquish their PR? (i.e. can the interviewer disagree to the PR holder's request to voluntarily relinquish their PR during the process, and still issue them a departure order?)

Whether or not it is wise, or not so wise, to renounce PR status given the particular individual's circumstances, yes, an inadmissible PR can voluntarily renounce/relinquish their PR status during a PoE examination, and make an application for temporary status. How cooperative border officials will be in facilitating this I cannot forecast.

There is no guarantee temporary status will be granted. Depending on the passport the traveler is carrying, and depending on the type of temporary status the traveler is applying for, border officials might not even have the authority to grant temporary status to some travelers. Travelers with visa-exempt passports will likely be granted at least visitor status, but that can be for a rather short duration (border officials can limit authorized stay to way, way less than visa-exempt travelers would otherwise be allowed).

If the primary objective is to avoid having a Removal Order issued, to avoid having that on your record, so to say, I cannot offer much in the way of pros and cons, other than to reiterate that a Removal Order based on inadmissibility for a RO breach is very, very different from a Removal Order issued based on grounds of criminality, security, or immigration violations.
Thanks @dpenabill for the detailed reply; I really appreciate the insight. One question - if a returning PR holder’s PR is revoked at the POE for not meeting the minimum residency obligation (and issued a departure order), can a future PR application to Canada be refused on grounds of the previous PR’s revocation, if the applicant qualifies for all criteria for a future PR application?

Further, another question purely out of curiosity — is it within the rights of a PR holder to travel to Canada as long as their PR card is valid (regardless of their having missed the residency obligation or not)?
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,301
8,898
Thanks @dpenabill for the detailed reply; I really appreciate the insight. One question - if a returning PR holder’s PR is revoked at the POE for not meeting the minimum residency obligation (and issued a departure order), can a future PR application to Canada be refused on grounds of the previous PR’s revocation, if the applicant qualifies for all criteria for a future PR application?

Further, another question purely out of curiosity — is it within the rights of a PR holder to travel to Canada as long as their PR card is valid (regardless of their having missed the residency obligation or not)?
1) No, a revocation for RO non-compliance is generally not a reason for refusal. BUT: there have been very infrequent cases of eg spousal apps under similar circumstances refused for, basically, 'not showing intent to reside in Canada.' In brief, applicant had PR, never resided/rarely visited, and application seemed to be about obtaining PR status / card rather than living in Canada. That said, there are plenty who re-apply and don't have a problem.

2) A PR who arrives at a port of entry, with a valid card or not, cannot be refused entry. But at border CBSA can start the procedure to revoke (subject to appeal) whether the card is valid or not based on the non-compliance.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Remarks in regards to a BIGGER PICTURE . . .

Further, another question purely out of curiosity — is it within the rights of a PR holder to travel to Canada as long as their PR card is valid (regardless of their having missed the residency obligation or not)?
@armoured answered this.
A PR who arrives at a port of entry, with a valid card or not, cannot be refused entry. But at border CBSA can start the procedure to revoke (subject to appeal) whether the card is valid or not based on the non-compliance.


A TANGENT . . . some additional observations for clarification, with a focus on the nature of a PR's international mobility rights:

For clarification, in addition, the PR Residency Obligation is NOT self-enforcing. If Canadian immigration authorities (CBSA, IRCC) do not pursue enforcement of the RO, the PR continues to have valid status despite the fact the PR is in breach of the RO. Most common example: PR in breach is not questioned about RO compliance during Port-of-Entry examination, just waived through. If this happens (and there is a lot of anecdotal reporting this is quite common for PRs with valid PR cards who are in breach but not by much), all that PR has to do is avoid making applications to immigration authorities and stay long enough to accumulate 730 days IN Canada within the previous five years, and that will cure the previous breach of the RO.

Note, regarding most common applications that it is a mistake to make while in breach of the RO, applications which require or might trigger a Residency Determination (assessment of compliance with the RO), these are:
-- application for a PR Travel Document​
-- application to renew PR card​
-- application to enter Canada at a PoE (when returning to Canada after traveling outside Canada)​
-- application to sponsor family member​


Note, HOWEVER, JUST in CASE: Just in case the question is about what might APPEAR to be a valid PR card based on the date of expiration, it warrants noting that if a Removal, Departure, or Exclusion Order becomes enforceable against an individual who had PR status, that terminates their PR status and any PR card in their possession is then NOT valid. This is not a common scenario, but there have been queries in this forum in regards to situations in which this may apply. If a PR has a valid PR card when a Removal (et al) order takes effect, that card is NO longer valid . . . regardless of its expiration date.

And, Perhaps Being a Bit Too Persnickety, Clarifications as to "Right to Travel;" NO right/entitlement to "travel" to Canada, rather a right/entitlement to "enter" Canada:"

It is common to frame questions about PR mobility "rights" the way the question has been framed here: "is it within the rights of a PR holder to travel to Canada as long as their PR card is valid?" And generally there is little need to grapple with the technicalities distinguishing what are considered legal "rights" versus "privileges" and "entitlements." Most readily understand that as a practical matter, for example, that PRs do NOT have a Charter protected "right" to enter Canada like Canadian citizens have (section 6 in the Charter), but rather have a statutory entitlement, or as commonly referenced, a "statutory right" which does not have nearly the same force or effect as a right protected by the Charter.

As a practical matter, if and when a PR arrives at a Canadian Port-of-Entry, border officials MUST allow the PR to enter Canada. Again, @armoured stated this directly and succinctly: "A PR who arrives at a port of entry, with a valid card or not, cannot be refused entry."

What tends to not be well understood is that the "right" involved here, which again in regards to PRs is actually only a statutory entitlement, is the right/entitlement to ENTER Canada, and this is NOT the same as a right to TRAVEL to Canada. Thus, it is a right Canadians have when they arrive at a PoE and (as all travelers must) apply for permission/authority to actually ENTER Canada.

For emphasis: This is NOT about a right/entitlement to travel to Canada. It is a right/entitlement to enter Canada.

Which means PRs carrying passports which allow travel via the U.S. have an advantage over those who can only TRAVEL to Canada via commercial carriers. The former can still travel to Canada even if they do not have a valid PR card or a PR TD. The latter, those who cannot travel via the U.S., must have either a valid PR card or a PR TD in order to board a flight coming to Canada.

In any event, if a PR is abroad and possesses a valid PR card, but in the meantime a Removal Order against that PR comes into force (takes effect), that PR card is NO longer valid and cannot be used to travel to Canada and will not entitle the former PR (now a Foreign National) to enter Canada.

Note Re International Mobility Rights Generally:

Canada does NOT protect the international mobility rights of PRs. Moreover, it appears that even Canadian citizens do not have a protected Charter right to travel internationally except the explicit right to enter Canada and the right to exit Canada (to be addressed further).

For PRs, travel rights outside Canada, even in regards to travel coming to Canada, mostly depend on the passport the PR carries. There are exceptions and nuances (PRs who carry Refugee Travel Documents for example). Thus, a PR outside Canada is relying on their home country's protection and (again with some exceptions) their right to travel to other countries will depend on the laws and rules of the other country, generally determined based on which passport the traveler is carrying.

CORRECTION: I have often distinguished the protection of international mobility rights for Canadian citizens, based on Section 6 in the Charter, in contrast to Canadian PRs. ERRONEOUSLY, it turns out.

Turns out Canadians do NOT have a Charter right to protection of international travel. Subsection 6(1) in the Charter protects the right to ENTER Canada, in addition to the right to remain in Canada and the right to EXIT Canada, and NO MORE.

I have an excuse. Not a particularly good one. I should have made a concerted effort to better understand the decision by Canada's Supreme Court in Divito v. Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2013 SCC 47, 3 SCR 157, https://canlii.ca/t/g0mbh which includes an extensive if not thorough analysis of Subsection 6(1) in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. (Note: my study and analysis of Canadian mobility rights was instigated by the controversial requirement to have an intent to continue to reside in Canada, briefly applicable to PRs applying for citizenship for part of 2015, which the Trudeau government promptly ceased to apply or enforce in early 2016, and formally repealed in late 2017.)

Like Federal Court Justice Henry S. Brown in his decision in Boloh 1(A) v. Canada, 2023 FC 98, https://canlii.ca/t/jv21g I understood the rights protected by 6(1) (which have been definitively determined to be "foundational," "fundamental," and having "expansive breadth" and "plentitude," to be defined generously) to impose a positive obligation on the Canadian government to, in effect, protect its citizens' rights of travel outside Canada, at the least provide documents that would facilitate a citizen's return to Canada.

Last week a Federal Court of Appeal said otherwise. See decision authored by Justice David Strata in Canada v. Boloh 1(a), 2023 FCA 120, https://canlii.ca/t/jxg3p (also here: https://decisions.fca-caf.gc.ca/fca-caf/decisions/en/item/521186/index.do )

Not many will be concerned, let alone alarmed, in response to that outcome, given the notorious character of the Canadian citizens involved, one of whom is particularly well known in the media as "Jihad Jack," who was a dual Canadian and UK citizen but stripped of UK citizenship in 2019 because of his activities in Syria. In any event, the men involved in the Boloh case, 23 Canadian citizens, have been denied travel documents and other assistance to facilitate their repatriation to Canada. The Charter right to "enter" Canada is just that, only that, a right to enter Canada. Not a right to travel to Canada.

So, in regards to whether a Canadian PR has a "right to travel to Canada," not one that is protected by the Charter, as not even Canadian citizens are entitled to protection of such a right.
 

stan_shk

Member
Jun 14, 2021
11
0
Thanks again @dpenabill. A few followup questions. If a PR who is outside Canada with an expired PR card were to raise a PRTD on H&C grounds, and if that PRTD request were declined, does it result in the PR status being revoked? Further, does this sequence (i.e. PRTD declined, PR status revoked) negatively impact a new PR application in future? Also, is a PRTD rejection considered as a "visa application rejection"? Is a “departure / removal order” served if a PRTD request is rejected when applied from overseas? Lastly, can a PRTD be applied for before the end date of an expiring PR Card if the applicant is overseas? Apologies if some of these are basic questions.
 

scylla

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Thanks again @dpenabill. A few followup questions. If a PR who is outside Canada with an expired PR card were to raise a PRTD on H&C grounds, and if that PRTD request were declined, does it result in the PR status being revoked? Further, does this sequence (i.e. PRTD declined, PR status revoked) negatively impact a new PR application in future? Also, is a PRTD rejection considered as a "visa application rejection"? Is a “departure / removal order” served if a PRTD request is rejected when applied from overseas? Lastly, can a PRTD be applied for before the end date of an expiring PR Card if the applicant is overseas? Apologies if some of these are basic questions.
- Yes, if the PRTD is declined under H&C that would trigger the loss of your PR status. You would be provided with the opportunity to appeal this.
- No, this doesn't negatively impact a new PR application in the future.
- Yes, you would want to declare the refused PRTD in any future application as a visa rejection. No, it is not a departure / removal order.
- You can apply for the PRTD at any time regardless of when your PR card is expiring. The expiry date of your PR card is really irrelevant. What matters is if you meet the residency obligation at the time you apply for the PRTD (if not, then you have to apply under H&C).
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Thanks again @dpenabill. A few followup questions. If a PR who is outside Canada with an expired PR card were to raise a PRTD on H&C grounds, and if that PRTD request were declined, does it result in the PR status being revoked? Further, does this sequence (i.e. PRTD declined, PR status revoked) negatively impact a new PR application in future? Also, is a PRTD rejection considered as a "visa application rejection"? Is a “departure / removal order” served if a PRTD request is rejected when applied from overseas? Lastly, can a PRTD be applied for before the end date of an expiring PR Card if the applicant is overseas? Apologies if some of these are basic questions.
See response by @scylla
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
Hi guys

So i thought i would update my experience at the land border on april 28th 2023
You may have to scroll back at my earlier posts about my detailed situation about not meeting residency by 300 days or so

I traveled through land border via usa flight. My relatives from usa drove me to the border on way to toronto.

I was traveling with two us citizens my wife n elder daughter new PRs with still days left on PR card to fullfill residency my younger daughter who was canadian and me with a 7 day valid PR card but not meeting residency

We were stopped and officer at window asked how long we were out of canada so i told jom 2.5 yrs to be precise. He then asked all of us to head to complex next to rainbow bridge

Our passports were moved to the center automaticaly through the file pipe

The officer at the window seemed young and not happy. Inside we were dealt by an older officer who asked us to wait while he was in front of a computer looking through

I was sure that i would be quizzed about absense and residency breach but 30 mins later officer pointed at me and called me alone to the counter
He handed all our passports and said ur all good to go

Now i dont know whether he showed me compassion due to canadian child or knowing rest of family are good and can again sponsor me if he did issue revokation of PR status i dont know what went through his mind but i was let through without further questioning despite being sent in to the complex

On arrival i tried to get CBSA file but i got a reply after 30 days with only entry and exit no notes from officer

Then i thought i may have to request ircc file as officer inside the complex may be from immigration but online system only takes request when u have a file number for ongoing application which i dont have. I would welcome any help as to how i can get notes from.immigration officer who checked our passports and waived us in
Would like to see what he thinks. I would like to apply for PR card early not that i plan to leave but its good to have to make short trips to usa for small things or travel in emergency
 
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