Pick up at IRCC office...now what?

[Confused in Toronto]

I am living abroad (Europe) because my Canadian husband has a job abroad. I have been abroad for about 12 years now. We are planning to eventually retire in Canada, where our children have returned to go to university and will likely settle and work. We own property in Canada. We pay property taxes, etc, etc. I visit Canada on average 6 times a year.

Canada is allowing me to maintain my PR status because the reason I live abroad is due to my husband's profession.

I applied for a PR card renewal about five years ago, and all went relatively smoothly and I received my card in the mail.

This time around I applied for PR card renewal in December, seeing as my card expires in July. The ECAS status changed to 'decision made' in February. After multiple attempts to call while I was in Canada in March (each time cut off by 'agent unavailable') and multiple emails, I finally received a message today that yes indeed, my card was approved, but that I have been 'randomly' selected to pick it up at an IRCC office to be determined.

IRCC knows that I am abroad. I have made this fact abundantly clear in my application. I am only following IRCC rules, which state that I maintain my status if I accompany a Canadian citizen abroad. Why on earth are they now making me pick up my card in person, when they know that I am abroad? And why will they now send a physical letter to a physical mailbox in Canada to advise me of pickup time when they know that I am abroad? What happened to an email?

As of now, my children will be monitoring the mailbox of our property in Canada, but it is 1.5 hour drive away from them, so this is not an insignificant task.

Yes I am venting, but I cannot help but feel that Canada is making this as hard as possible for those of us living abroad, but trying hard to follow the rules. I am considering renouncing my residency, although my husband is begging me not to, seeing as the plan is to retire in Canada eventually...

My question -- any idea how long it will take Etobicoke (closest IRCC office to my Canadian address I am guessing) to send me this letter and provide me with a date and time for interview and card pickup? I would love to hear from anyone who has had this experience lately...I already have plans to be in Canada in May and July, and would be relieved if I could pick up my card during one of those stays.

 

[dpenabill]

IRCC knows that I am abroad. I have made this fact abundantly clear in my application. I am only following IRCC rules, which state that I maintain my status if I accompany a Canadian citizen abroad. Why on earth are they now making me pick up my card in person, when they know that I am abroad? And why will they now send a physical letter to a physical mailbox in Canada to advise me of pickup time when they know that I am abroad? What happened to an email?

. . . I cannot help but feel that Canada is making this as hard as possible for those of us living abroad . . .

Yep. They are. It is clear that IRCC has policies and practices favouring the use of PR Travel Documents by PRs living outside Canada, limiting the capacity to obtain a PR card to PRs actually living in Canada.

This has long been part of their policies and practices but it appears that recently they have revised some practices to put more teeth into it. It was only just last year, for example, they implemented application forms making it more or less impossible to apply for a PR card from outside Canada, even though IRCC, and before it CIC, has long held the view that the application could only be made in Canada, with little means of enforcing this until this past year.

Many are frustrated, of course, and believe things should work differently. But there are no signs that IRCC will change course, except perhaps to make it more difficult for PRs living abroad.

I generally steer wide of the how-things-should-work discussion, focusing on how-things-do-work, but there is no mystery as to why IRCC takes this approach: the clear purpose of a grant of PR status (as stated in numerous official Federal Court decisions) is so the individual can LIVE IN CANADA. The law recognizes there are circumstances in which individuals should be allowed to keep PR status despite not living in Canada, and so there are exceptions pursuant to which a PR not living in Canada might be allowed to keep PR status.

You qualify for one of the exceptions, so you are allowed to keep your PR status despite not living in Canada. But yep, IRCC policies and practices intentionally make it more difficult for PRs in these situations to obtain PR cards, preferring such PRs to rely on PR TDs.

As to when the notice to pick up the card will be sent, I cannot offer any insight.

 

[canuck78]

I am living abroad (Europe) because my Canadian husband has a job abroad. I have been abroad for about 12 years now. We are planning to eventually retire in Canada, where our children have returned to go to university and will likely settle and work. We own property in Canada. We pay property taxes, etc, etc. I visit Canada on average 6 times a year.

Canada is allowing me to maintain my PR status because the reason I live abroad is due to my husband's profession.

I applied for a PR card renewal about five years ago, and all went relatively smoothly and I received my card in the mail.

This time around I applied for PR card renewal in December, seeing as my card expires in July. The ECAS status changed to 'decision made' in February. After multiple attempts to call while I was in Canada in March (each time cut off by 'agent unavailable') and multiple emails, I finally received a message today that yes indeed, my card was approved, but that I have been 'randomly' selected to pick it up at an IRCC office to be determined.

IRCC knows that I am abroad. I have made this fact abundantly clear in my application. I am only following IRCC rules, which state that I maintain my status if I accompany a Canadian citizen abroad. Why on earth are they now making me pick up my card in person, when they know that I am abroad? And why will they now send a physical letter to a physical mailbox in Canada to advise me of pickup time when they know that I am abroad? What happened to an email?

As of now, my children will be monitoring the mailbox of our property in Canada, but it is 1.5 hour drive away from them, so this is not an insignificant task.

Yes I am venting, but I cannot help but feel that Canada is making this as hard as possible for those of us living abroad, but trying hard to follow the rules. I am considering renouncing my residency, although my husband is begging me not to, seeing as the plan is to retire in Canada eventually...

My question -- any idea how long it will take Etobicoke (closest IRCC office to my Canadian address I am guessing) to send me this letter and provide me with a date and time for interview and card pickup? I would love to hear from anyone who has had this experience lately...I already have plans to be in Canada in May and July, and would be relieved if I could pick up my card during one of those stays.

Most applying from a residence abroad don’t list a Canadian mailing address. It is somewhat assumed that if you list the Canadian address that you will have access to the mailing address. For many spouses of Canadians living abroad who are PRs a multiple entry PRTD would likely be a better option if they only want to visit Canada until they want to return on a permanent basis.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Hello everyone!

Wanted to provide an update on my PR card renewal experience in case it may be helpful. On May 4th, I wrote an email to the IRCC offices in Etobicoke requesting an update on my application. I stated the following facts:

- application sent in December 2022, at which point the estimated application processing time was 66 days
- 'ghost update' in February
- email response to my query in March from IRCC agent confirming card approval but also stating that I had been randomly selected to pick up in person
- and then silence...

I asked if I could have an update on when I might be able to receive my card, seeing as my old card was due to expire in early July.

That afternoon (May 4th) I received what I believe to be a standardized email (not physical letter) stating that the card had been prepared for me, and that an appointment had been set for May 23rd to pick up the card. It also specified that at such time, it would be determined whether a 5 year card was appropriate. Further, I was asked to bring along original documents of all copies I had included with my application.

As I am currently in Canada, but have a flight booked back to Europe on May 21st (two days before the appointment given), I went to the offices today to explain my situation, and to inquire into whether it was possible to get an appointment before the 21st. Within a few minutes, I was given a number ticket and told to take a seat.

After less than 5 minutes, I was called to a counter, where I was asked to provide ID (passport) and my old PR card. No review of documents, and the only question was to confirm that I currently reside abroad due to my (Canadian) husband's work. Very friendly agent.

My new card expires on February 21st, 2028.

My conclusion is that the IRCC processed my application within two months of receipt, which correlates well with their estimated processing time. The hold-up was the transfer to IRCC Etobicoke for in person delivery of the card.

 

[bricksonly]

For PR not stay in Canada more than 730 days but still qualify RO by living with citizen spouse, yes, you could be asked to pick up in person. But it just a way IRCC wants to make sure your address is safe to receive PR card. They send a letter instead. That's all.
I was asked to pick up last time, but this time they send to my mail address directly. It is just randomly chosen.

 

[canuck78]

For PR not stay in Canada more than 730 days but still qualify RO by living with citizen spouse, yes, you could be asked to pick up in person. But it just a way IRCC wants to make sure your address is safe to receive PR card. They send a letter instead. That's all.
I was asked to pick up last time, but this time they send to my mail address directly. It is just randomly chosen.

They don’t send the card abroad which is partially why you are required to pick-up in person. Had you listed a Canadian residential address?

 

[dpenabill]

My conclusion is that the IRCC processed my application within two months of receipt, which correlates well with their estimated processing time. The hold-up was the transfer to IRCC Etobicoke for in person delivery of the card.

Good account of the process. The update is appreciated.

And congratulations.

It warrants noting, with some caution, that going to the office does not always succeed in even an opportunity to interact with anyone in any substantive way. It is great this worked for you, and obviously was a good decision by you. And your report of it is helpful in that it illustrates this can work, at least sometimes, so would be worth the try for many others.

For clarification: While it may be accurate to say the "hold-up was the transfer to IRCC Etobicoke for in person delivery of the card," that's only the logistical aspect. The reason why is just as you initially apprehended (and I affirmed), and that is about requiring an in-person PR card pick-up, itself, which likely (not necessarily, but probably) was due to policy and practices distinguishing PRs IN Canada versus those abroad, that is, as you expressed it, yeah they make "this as hard as possible for those of us living abroad, but trying hard to follow the rules."


Regarding notice and details in notice:

. . . received what I believe to be a standardized email (not physical letter) stating that the card had been prepared for me, and that an appointment had been set for May 23rd to pick up the card. It also specified that at such time, it would be determined whether a 5 year card was appropriate. Further, I was asked to bring along original documents of all copies I had included with my application.

One of the things IRCC does which tends to cause frustration, because it can be confusing or even misleading, is the use of templates for notices and other communications which cover a broad range of transaction details. It can indeed be difficult to sort out precisely what applies to the person receiving the notice versus what applies to some other PR in a somewhat different situation. Example: The notice I received from CIC (before the name change to IRCC, it's been a long while) just a week before I was scheduled to take the oath of citizenship, included scheduling me for a knowledge of Canada test in addition to an interview despite the fact I was way over the age (even way back then; yeah, old guy here) for test-exemption (still required to engage in an interview).

For you, it is worth noting that it was prudent to go to the office prepared to present supporting documents. Regarding which, by the way, it is clear you did present the key documents for review: those establishing your identity, including sufficiently to establish you as the individual with PR status making the card application. But you also indicate the counter-interview was also at least in part to verify the circumstances pursuant to which you meet the PR Residency Obligation based on credit for the accompanying a citizen abroad exception. Your verbal responses to questions were, apparently, sufficient. But, it was definitely prudent to have with you additional supporting documents to present, to back that up if the examining official had some questions.

Again, your detailed report is very much appreciated.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

They don’t send the card abroad which is partially why you are required to pick-up in person. Had you listed a Canadian residential address?

Yes, I listed our Canadian address (we still own a property in Toronto). My last renewal went smoothly, and the card was sent there. This time was different. The agent said that I had been 'randomly' selected to pick up in person, but I wonder if it may be the new procedure for PRs living abroad.

 

[dpenabill]

The agent said it was a 'random' selection, but I wonder if it may be the new procedure for PRs living abroad.

Not all that new, just more . . . well, one might say, discriminating. Discriminating in the sense that IRCC may have increased the extent to which it screens PRs and correspondingly, for those identified or perceived to be abroad, requires more often showing in Canada presence.

Several years ago we saw IRCC, actually it was CIC at the time (so still in the Harper era), increase issuance of PR Travel Documents good for multiple-use that are valid for up to five years (or less based on when the PR's current passport expires). For purposes of immigration, and IRCC, and CBSA, and travel returning to Canada, these PR TDs are virtually equivalent to a PR card. What they do not work for is meeting some proof-of-status requirements to obtain provincial benefits.

Thus, even though it was just last year that IRCC implemented application forms making it more difficult for PRs living abroad to apply for and obtain a new PR card, that was not a policy shift but rather a continuation of the longer effort (over many years now) to limit issuance of PR cards to those PRs actually in Canada, and to encourage PRs outside Canada to rely on obtaining PR TDs.

The curious thing about this, some may think, is that this is not directly supported by the statutory provisions or the applicable regulations. It has been successfully challenged on appeal in the past, where the Federal Court has ruled that the fact the PR was abroad at the time the application was made does not give IRCC grounds to deny issuing or delivering a PR card. Which probably explains the change in forms last year, which will not even facilitate making the application unless the applicant declares they are present in Canada. If the PR was not in Canada at the time of making the application, IRCC does not deny the application because of that but, rather, can deny it for misrepresentation (and actually this can lead to more serious consequences).

In contrast, those PRs living abroad that still have enough ties in Canada to actually be in Canada when the application is made, and who in particular are able to be in Canada for an in-person card pick-up if required, will still be able to obtain PR cards even though living abroad long-term (and otherwise complying with the PR RO, such as by accompanying-citizen-spouse). But as discussed, they tend to not make this easy.

All that noted, it appears there is still some variability in how things go in the individual case. There probably was a significant chance, for example, that your new card might have been mailed to the address in Canada you provided. Not actually a "random" outcome, but subject to a decision-making process that from the outside is unpredictable in a way that makes it appear random (note: it is common for IRCC and CBSA officials to say somethings are "random" when they do not want to reveal a confidential decision-making process or the criteria employed).

There is, as well, the variability in obtaining access at physical office locations. Fortunately you were able to obtain access at a time other than scheduled. Others have not been so fortunate (there is some suggestion some offices are more, one might say "closed" to non-scheduled access, such as the B.C. office).

 

[bricksonly]

They don’t send the card abroad which is partially why you are required to pick-up in person. Had you listed a Canadian residential address?

Of cause I gave a Canadian residential address. I believe OP did the same thing. However, as IRCC wants to verify, they do pick-up games randomly.

 

[canuck78]

Of cause I gave a Canadian residential address. I believe OP did the same thing. However, as IRCC wants to verify, they do pick-up games randomly.

If you are not currently living in Canada even if you own a home it isn’t your residential address. That can be your mailing address but not your residential address. Based on my recollection of previous posts you seem to be claiming things like child benefit and filing taxes like a resident of Canada yet living in the US. That is likely why you were able to have your new PR card delivered. There was likely confusion about your actual location which is why the PR card was sent to your Canadian address. If you and your family are living and working in the US then you aren’t entitled to child benefit.

 

[canuck78]

Yes, I listed our Canadian address (we still own a property in Toronto). My last renewal went smoothly, and the card was sent there. This time was different. The agent said that I had been 'randomly' selected to pick up in person, but I wonder if it may be the new procedure for PRs living abroad.

If you don’t actually live in your Canadian home it isn’t your residential address. It can be your mailing address but the home where you are currently living should be your residential address. Assume it was clear that you weren’t actually living in Canada therefore had been “randomly” asked to come pick up your PR card.

 

[bricksonly]

If you are not currently living in Canada even if you own a home it isn’t your residential address. That can be your mailing address but not your residential address. Based on my recollection of previous posts you seem to be claiming things like child benefit and filing taxes like a resident of Canada yet living in the US. That is likely why you were able to have your new PR card delivered. There was likely confusion about your actual location which is why the PR card was sent to your Canadian address. If you and your family are living and working in the US then you aren’t entitled to child benefit.

CCTB is thing 20 years ago...when we relocated back to Canada, for the time we were leaving. No tax return, no CCTB, that what I got from CRA. Can I file my tax return even I didn't live in Canada? CRA says yes, if I have tie with Canada. Then I answer an inquiry form and CRA said you can file tax THUS you also got CCTB during the time. That's a simple truth.
We moved to US after, this time, again, we reported it. We were looked as non-resident for tax purpose this time.
I renewed my PR card based on the same information, I LIVE in US! I attached my NOA showing my address in US! Have no idea people living out of Canada won't get a PR card. I DON'T state that I am going back to live in Canada, but mention I need the card to travel back to Canada! And they agree!
The truth is, you can get a PR card renewal, even you live outside of Canada. PR renewal application can be only made IN Canada, doesn't mean you have to LIVE IN Canada.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

If you don’t actually live in your Canadian home it isn’t your residential address. It can be your mailing address but the home where you are currently living should be your residential address. Assume it was clear that you weren’t actually living in Canada therefore had been “randomly” asked to come pick up your PR card.

I don't know what to tell you. I could only apply from Canada, and when I did, I was at my Canadian address. We stay here when we are in Canada. As I mentioned earlier, the last renewal (in fact, the last two renewals) went through without a hiccup under the exact same circumstances, and the card was sent directly to said address. This time around, the agent told me that my selection for in-person pick-up was 'random' and did not indicate that it had anything to do with Canadian/foreign address or otherwise. But who knows. I don't. All I can do is try to follow the rules and instructions.

 

[bricksonly]

I don't know what to tell you. I could only apply from Canada, and when I did, I was at my Canadian address. We stay here when we are in Canada. As I mentioned earlier, the last renewal (in fact, the last two renewals) went through without a hiccup under the exact same circumstances, and the card was sent directly to said address. This time around, the agent told me that my selection for in-person pick-up was 'random' and did not indicate that it had anything to do with Canadian/foreign address or otherwise. But who knows. I don't. All I can do is try to follow the rules and instructions.

I believe the personal pickup is random and not related to PR living in or out of Canada. And for sure, people living out of Canada still qualify for PR card renewal. A PR card is just a travel document. It's the same or maybe more important for PR living out of Canada. I don't agree that IRCC intend to make it more difficult for PR living outside and use PRTD instead. It depends on your option to get PR card or PRTD. Most PRTD actually for people lose card outside or not realize the expiry date.
A temptory travel document is not friendly for PR who wants to travel accross border frequently. There is the reason PRs have the right to apply for PR card for TRAVEL even they don't live in Canada.