Returning while not meeting RO - any recent experiences?

[Megabuff]

I got this in an autoreply from immigration ....

Permanent residents of Canada are not eligible for an eTA. They must hold a valid permanent resident (PR) card or must apply for a permanent resident travel document (PRTD) in order to travel to Canada.

 

[sayadil]

I got this in an autoreply from immigration ....

Permanent residents of Canada are not eligible for an eTA. They must hold a valid permanent resident (PR) card or must apply for a permanent resident travel document (PRTD) in order to travel to Canada.

Hey

Not sure if this msg is for me ?

My PR card is valid it's just problem is meeting RO

 

[VJ@1981]

Hi all,

would request your advice in my case -

I became PR on April 5, 2018 and it expires on May 19, 2023.

Just before covid outbreak, ie late March 2020, I had to leave back for my home country due to parental health issues, which kept me there till November end 2021, I returned back to Canada on Dec 1, 2021 but had to leave in late Jan 2022 due to parental health issues again.

I am planning to return to Canada to renew my PR card on 28th April 2023.

Now here are my queries -
1) Will I face questioning at immigration on Toronto airport as on that I would have 720 to 730 days to my credit (If I count the days in 5 years immediately preceding that very day) ?

2) For Renewal of PR, for meeting the residency obligation of physical presence in Canada ie 730 days in 5 years, the 5 years period is counted from the date of application or from the date of me becoming a PR ?...... coz i would have definitely met this requirement if it is counted from the day of me becoming PR but it will be just 730 days if I see it from the date of application (which can be any day post my arrival on 28 April 2023).

3) Can I file the application for renewal of PR card online??

4) Is my application for Renewal affected if the days of my presence in Canada are just 730 or little over it. ?

Thanks

 

[Ponga]

Hi all,

would request your advice in my case -

I became PR on April 5, 2018 and it expires on May 19, 2023.

Just before covid outbreak, ie late March 2020, I had to leave back for my home country due to parental health issues, which kept me there till November end 2021, I returned back to Canada on Dec 1, 2021 but had to leave in late Jan 2022 due to parental health issues again.

I am planning to return to Canada to renew my PR card on 28th April 2023.

Now here are my queries -
1) Will I face questioning at immigration on Toronto airport as on that I would have 720 to 730 days to my credit (If I count the days in 5 years immediately preceding that very day) ?

2) For Renewal of PR, for meeting the residency obligation of physical presence in Canada ie 730 days in 5 years, the 5 years period is counted from the date of application or from the date of me becoming a PR ?...... coz i would have definitely met this requirement if it is counted from the day of me becoming PR but it will be just 730 days if I see it from the date of application (which can be any day post my arrival on 28 April 2023).

3) Can I file the application for renewal of PR card online??

4) Is my application for Renewal affected if the days of my presence in Canada are just 730 or little over it. ?

Thanks

1. Impossible to say, but using a PIK (Kiosk) at the airport may reduce the chances.

2. The R.O. is based on a rolling 5 year window (it's always moving). Since you became a PR on Apr 5, 2018, your 5 year window has already passed and now starts on Apr 12, 2018. It does appear that you have met this requirement as of today. If you were in Canada, today, and applied today, your days from Apr 5, 2018 thru April 12, 2018 would no longer count. If my quick math is correct, you would currently have a total of approximately 765 days.

Apr 12, 2018 thru late March 2020 - ~ 715 days?

Dec 1, 2021 thru late Jan 2022 - ~ 50 days?

(each day that passes reduces the ~765 R.O. number above by one).

So, if you apply for PR Card renewal on Apr 29th, you would have approximately 750 days. Hopefully you have accurate dates of your travel history from/to Canada because you will need it for the application.


3. Yes, once you are back in Canada.

4. In theory, no, but it's always `suggested' that a PR have a surplus of days beyond 730.

 

[VJ@1981]

1. Impossible to say, but using a PIK (Kiosk) at the airport may reduce the chances.

2. The R.O. is based on a rolling 5 year window (it's always moving). Since you became a PR on Apr 5, 2018, your 5 year window has already passed and now starts on Apr 12, 2018. It does appear that you have met this requirement as of today. If you were in Canada, today, and applied today, your days from Apr 5, 2018 thru April 12, 2018 would no longer count. If my quick math is correct, you would currently have a total of approximately 765 days.

Apr 12, 2018 thru late March 2020 - ~ 715 days?

Dec 1, 2021 thru late Jan 2022 - ~ 50 days?

(each day that passes reduces the ~765 R.O. number above by one).

So, if you apply for PR Card renewal on Apr 29th, you would have approximately 750 days. Hopefully you have accurate dates of your travel history from/to Canada because you will need it for the application.


3. Yes, once you are back in Canada.

4. In theory, no, but it's always `suggested' that a PR have a surplus of days beyond 730.

Thanks for the reply, I did a proper calculation, for calculating no. of days of absence from Canada , am considering the day where one has landed in Canada or exited Canada, as not an day of absence ( no matter how small an amount of time the person has stayed inside Canada on that day).

Now as am enterning Canada on late night 28th April and I apply on 2nd May 2023, so the period to be considered will be 2nd May 2018 to 2nd May 2023. So with the methodology above, my total days of absence from Canada will be 1090. less then 1095 at or above which the problem comes, is it enough ??

Had I been allowed to consider 5 yrs period from April 5 2018, when I became a PR, it would be 759 days.

so is like 734 or 735 days of presence in Canada enough not to raise eyebrows for renewal of PR

Also is online application allowed? as I heard that it is not allowed anymore for renewal, is it True?? ALSO is paper application better thing to do?

 

[armoured]

Now as am enterning Canada on late night 28th April and I apply on 2nd May 2023, so the period to be considered will be 2nd May 2018 to 2nd May 2023. So with the methodology above, my total days of absence from Canada will be 1090. less then 1095 at or above which the problem comes, is it enough ??

As long as the days outside Canada is less than 1095, it is enough.

Now: you will face less chance of delays if you - first and foremost - remain in Canada while being processed i.e. until you get the PR card. Secondary, if you can get the days in Canada a bit higher (by applying a bit later), it may help somewhat. If you are at stage where you are losing days from 2018 (that is, offsetting the days in Canada now), then it's just a decision about whether you gain or lose time by applying earlier or later - that's going to be guesswork. (My own guess is that applying after getting a bit more obviously settled in Canada eg after a couple months might also help.)

Had I been allowed to consider 5 yrs period from April 5 2018, when I became a PR, it would be 759 days.

As an old expression has it: "If we had bacon, we could have bacon and eggs - if we had eggs." It is what it is.

 

[Ponga]

Also is online application allowed? as I heard that it is not allowed anymore for renewal, is it True?? ALSO is paper application better thing to do?

Where did you hear/see that? AFAIK, people are still applying online and...still facing ridiculous errors/glitches, but are eventually getting approvals.

 

[VJ@1981]

As long as the days outside Canada is less than 1095, it is enough.

Now: you will face less chance of delays if you - first and foremost - remain in Canada while being processed i.e. until you get the PR card. Secondary, if you can get the days in Canada a bit higher (by applying a bit later), it may help somewhat. If you are at stage where you are losing days from 2018 (that is, offsetting the days in Canada now), then it's just a decision about whether you gain or lose time by applying earlier or later - that's going to be guesswork. (My own guess is that applying after getting a bit more obviously settled in Canada eg after a couple months might also help.)



As an old expression has it: "If we had bacon, we could have bacon and eggs - if we had eggs." It is what it is.

Thanks a lot for reply

but the very reason that I have been out of Canada so much is parental health issues and am the primary care giver, also I will be entering to Canada on April 28th just for 15 days in order to apply for renewal, as right now I cant be much away from my ailing parents.

Also I cannot gain any days as more I stay in Canada and delay the filing of application, though i gain days of stay in Canada but I lose the one gained in 2018.


I guess the best case is that file and hope for no explanations asked as I still meet the obligation of 730 days of presence, and if any explanation demand comes then provide it.

 

[armoured]

Thanks a lot for reply

but the very reason that I have been out of Canada so much is parental health issues and am the primary care giver, also I will be entering to Canada on April 28th just for 15 days in order to apply for renewal, as right now I cant be much away from my ailing parents.

Also I cannot gain any days as more I stay in Canada and delay the filing of application, though i gain days of stay in Canada but I lose the one gained in 2018.


I guess the best case is that file and hope for no explanations asked as I still meet the obligation of 730 days of presence, and if any explanation demand comes then provide it.

A possible scenario then - you apply, it is delayed, and eventually you are asked to come to an office in Canada to pick up.

And at that point you are out of Canada with an expired card and have to figure out how to return, either by prtd or land border.

And then you get to go through the h and c process for real (possibly again).

It may be that there's no alternative in your situation, given what you've decided to do. But possibly missing the point that calculating the days in Canada to apply doesn't change the fact that by leaving you'll be going into non compliance with doubts about ability to return (or return without getting the 44(1) report that can lead to losing pr status.

And you kind of left out the important part of your question eg you plan to leave and go into non compliance, will this work and no one can tell you.

 

[bricksonly]

A possible scenario then - you apply, it is delayed, and eventually you are asked to come to an office in Canada to pick up.

And at that point you are out of Canada with an expired card and have to figure out how to return, either by prtd or land border.

And then you get to go through the h and c process for real (possibly again).

It may be that there's no alternative in your situation, given what you've decided to do. But possibly missing the point that calculating the days in Canada to apply doesn't change the fact that by leaving you'll be going into non compliance with doubts about ability to return (or return without getting the 44(1) report that can lead to losing pr status.

And you kind of left out the important part of your question eg you plan to leave and go into non compliance, will this work and no one can tell you.

My experience 5 years ago: if go land port with expired PRcard and letter to pick up at local office, the CBSA officer just wave me in without any words

 

[armoured]

My experience 5 years ago: if go land port with expired PRcard and letter to pick up at local office, the CBSA officer just wave me in without any words

True, works for some that way, but certainly not for those that need to apply for PRTD (i.e. do not have access to USA). The risk even at border remains they could start the 44(1) process. Presumabliy also border guards have access to more info than they did in the past (absences from Canada), etc. But your point taken.

My main point above though was this: @VJ@1981 was writing this up while leaving out the MOST IMPORTANT POINT of the question, which is that they are travelling to Canada only (effectively) to apply for the PR card and then intend to leave. And since days in Canada is barely over the required number, that means in due course will fall out of compliance and then be abroad with an expired card.

This is a significant - material - omission. I'm not trying to accuse @VJ@1981 of anything, just noting that if one leaves out the important and signfiicant part of the story, you can more or less consider that any experience sharing/basic advice is useless.

[They may have brought this up in different thnreads, I don't know, i don't read all of them. And if I've missed something, meaculpa.]

 

[sayadil]

I realise me n VJ person are in identical situation. Intention is to stay and settle in canada... no doubts about that

But ailing parents and taking care of then coming in way of maintaining days in canada
I have renewed my previous cards just like him just staying enough to balance both issues but yes it gets tricky when parents get sicker and leaving them becomes even more difficult

But so far canadian authorities seem to have the compassion when they fully review ur file in Secondary review sort of situation

But meeting one Odd officer at entry could through everything upside down and make everything difficult

Let's hope for the best

 

[VJ@1981]

True, works for some that way, but certainly not for those that need to apply for PRTD (i.e. do not have access to USA). The risk even at border remains they could start the 44(1) process. Presumabliy also border guards have access to more info than they did in the past (absences from Canada), etc. But your point taken.

My main point above though was this: @VJ@1981 was writing this up while leaving out the MOST IMPORTANT POINT of the question, which is that they are travelling to Canada only (effectively) to apply for the PR card and then intend to leave. And since days in Canada is barely over the required number, that means in due course will fall out of compliance and then be abroad with an expired card.

This is a significant - material - omission. I'm not trying to accuse @VJ@1981 of anything, just noting that if one leaves out the important and signfiicant part of the story, you can more or less consider that any experience sharing/basic advice is useless.

[They may have brought this up in different thnreads, I don't know, i don't read all of them. And if I've missed something, meaculpa.]

You do raise a valid point but as of now the first intent is to renew the PR card ( as my days of absence do not exceed 1089 days in any case as of now , yes it is borderline case) and the idea is to enter and apply , then leave and get hold of it via some friend bringing it back or me taking PRTD and entering to take it.

If any explanation is asked in due course of renewal then I will have to deal with it.

Once 2 yrs have passed from the date of issue of the new PR then re-entry can be a problem as one doesn't know what the case might be,

In my situation, I guess this is a chance I have to take rather give up my PR all together.

 

[armoured]

Once 2 yrs have passed from the date of issue of the new PR then re-entry can be a problem as one doesn't know what the case might be,

This is incorrect - the residency obligation is on a rolling basis, looking back from any day of 'examination' (most common of which is crossing border). It has nothing formally to do with having a valid PR card.

So for example: you apply tomorrow and (miracle!) you even get the new PR card two weeks later. Then you leave and in a month or so you are out of compliance with the RO.

After that, at any point, you hypothetically can be found non-compliant at any point you re-enter. THere is no "good now for two years because I got a new PR card".

Now in reality, if it's a full five year card, CBSA usually may not look at it or pay any attention, at least for a while - unless there is something else going on.

But there are lots of in-betweens, like you get a card after the pick-up procedure - and then get a warning about compliance and travel becomes very difficult.

Note - repeat again that I'm not arguing with your choices if you think this is what you must do. I'm saying you need to be aware of how the rules actually work, and the PR card is not the status, and a new PR card does not mean you are compliant.

 

[VJ@1981]

This is incorrect - the residency obligation is on a rolling basis, looking back from any day of 'examination' (most common of which is crossing border). It has nothing formally to do with having a valid PR card.

So for example: you apply tomorrow and (miracle!) you even get the new PR card two weeks later. Then you leave and in a month or so you are out of compliance with the RO.

After that, at any point, you hypothetically can be found non-compliant at any point you re-enter. THere is no "good now for two years because I got a new PR card".

Now in reality, if it's a full five year card, CBSA usually may not look at it or pay any attention, at least for a while - unless there is something else going on.

But there are lots of in-betweens, like you get a card after the pick-up procedure - and then get a warning about compliance and travel becomes very difficult.

Note - repeat again that I'm not arguing with your choices if you think this is what you must do. I'm saying you need to be aware of how the rules actually work, and the PR card is not the status, and a new PR card does not mean you are compliant.

I know you are not arguing, infact I agree with what you are saying but am just trying in the hope it works