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Psychical presence interview

johnyrose

Star Member
Oct 18, 2018
176
96
NOC Code......
A
I really appreciate your response and concern.

I confirm I meet the requirements and I am not missing anything! I sent the case processing agent which I had my interview with ( it was an an officer) both the manual and online calculation form. I sent it to IRCC.GOAOttawaInterviews email. I also submitted it through webform inquiry just in case.

I also taking your advice and will talk to a lawyer on Monday! I just wish I had the case agent manager's email so I can send my documents to someone else as well in case she refuse to take a look at it! yesterday during my interview I begged her can we please do the calculation together and she refused. I applied 3 years a go and it hurts if I need to reapply when I meet all the requirements. Any advice if I should email anyone else?

Maybe my MP or Deputy minster
I do not think MP or Deputy minister can help but you can look into it.

Please let us know what happens with your application and how you proceed. I believe some members might get into a tricky situation like yours and would appreciate having a known outcome.
 

Flavia89

Full Member
Nov 17, 2022
29
3
I do not think MP or Deputy minister can help but you can look into it.

Please let us know what happens with your application and how you proceed. I believe some members might get into a tricky situation like yours and would appreciate having a known outcome.
I will for sure! I promised myself if this issue is resolved I will be an active member here and help others!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
I confirm I meet the requirements and I am not missing anything! I sent the case processing agent which I had my interview with ( it was an an officer) both the manual and online calculation form.
There is more to it, and explaining that gets complicated, but for now here's the gist: if the Citizenship Officer handling your case is not persuaded the information submitted meets the burden of proving 1095 days of physical presence, the travel history is NOT enough.

Travel history dates showing at least 1095 days credit, based on counting date of entry through to the next date of exit, is the MINIMUM. If, as has been discussed, the calculation based on travel history totaled 1094 days, or fewer, the application must fail.

ONLY if the calculation shows at least 1095 days credit is it even possible for the application to succeed. So that much is for sure necessary. This is why I fully concur with @scylla's observations about making sure to get travel history dates absolutely and precisely correct, "100%" . . . as @scylla put it . . . "you need to . . . be 100% sure that you have all of the right entry and exit dates." If you had a margin, a buffer, there might be some wiggle-room. You don't. There is no wiggle-room. To have any chance of success at all, your dates need to be perfect because that is what you need to add up to credit for 1095 days. Anything less fails.

That said, as you are experiencing, showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee it will succeed.

For most applicants, if the calculation based on travel history dates shows 1095 days credit, or more, that is enough. But that is because in conjunction with all the other information considered, IRCC does not doubt the completeness and accuracy of the travel history, and does not doubt the applicant actually was physically in Canada all those days in-between a date of entry and next exit. So they rely on that, relying on an inference that the applicant was physically IN Canada not just the day of entry, but the next day and the following days, all the days between the date of entry and next date of exit. That is how the online presence calculator works: it works based on this inference, it automatically counts and totals days from date of entry until next date of exit.

If that falls short, even by one day, the applicant is NOT qualified to be granted citizenship.

Here is the rub, which is something many appear to not grasp: even if the travel history dates show 1095 days presence, for that to be enough depends on that inference of presence all those in-between days . . . AND IRCC is not bound to make that inference. Canada has an incredibly porous border. There is no presumption of physical presence. All applicants, for example, must provide a complete address and activity history, and do so with sufficient information to enable IRCC to corroborate the physical presence calculation.

Expanding on that example: While address history and work history will be examined and compared to other information with some focus on whether the history is consistent with the applicant's reported travel history, the history is also examined and compared to consider whether it is consistent with and supports the applicant being actually physically present in Canada. Does the address and work history tend to show the applicant was actually physically present during ALL those days between reported dates of entry and next reported date of exit? Ultimately the latter may be more important, potentially a lot more important, than the travel history.​

Which leads back to recognizing that showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee an application will succeed.

If IRCC has doubts, it is the applicant's burden to present evidence sufficient to prove actual physical presence. And to present sufficient evidence that proves presence for at least 1095 days. That means evidence of presence for 1095 days, not just dates of entry and dates of exit. All a date of entry directly proves is presence for one day.

Many want IRCC to rely on CBSA travel history records, and assume or presume presence in Canada for the in-between days. But that is not how it works. IRCC looks at the CBSA travel history primarily to check on what the applicant has submitted, to see if there are any discrepancies or omissions with what the applicant has submitted. It is one way (among a number of ways) that IRCC is screening the applicant's credibility, to evaluate whether or not the applicant is a reliable reporter of the facts.

You kind of failed that test. Your account of travel history, in the application, was not complete, not accurate. In contrast, given that at best, at most, you were physically present for 730 days as a PR, which is the absolute minimum number of days needed to qualify for citizenship, that does not leave much room for doubt. Well, actually, it leaves no room for doubt.

There are many other tangents in your situation. It would be easy to get bogged down in clarifying whether the IRCC official you were dealing with was in fact the Citizenship Officer responsible for your case, or a processing agent. Routine PI interviews are usually done by a processing agent, who in turns provides the information to the responsible Citizenship Officer. If, in contrast, this was specifically a presence-case-interview with a Citizenship Officer, and this official clearly expressed skepticism and an intention to refer the case to a Citizenship Judge, that's different and a big deal, and that suggests the Citizenship Officer may very well indeed NOT be persuaded your information meets the burden of proof and so the case will be headed to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge.

I am not saying you will not prevail in a hearing with a Citizenship Judge. You might. But it is likely to take months or more to get there. And you might not prevail.

And even though it looks like this will go to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge, even that is not for sure.

For now, 1095 days gets you in the room where citizenship MIGHT be granted, but if and when challenged, it will take more than that to prove actual physical presence.
 
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Flavia89

Full Member
Nov 17, 2022
29
3
There is more to it, and explaining that gets complicated, but for now here's the gist: if the Citizenship Officer handling your case is not persuaded the information submitted meets the burden of proving 1095 days of physical presence, the travel history is NOT enough.

Travel history dates showing at least 1095 days credit, based on counting date of entry through to the next date of exit, is the MINIMUM. If, as has been discussed, the calculation based on travel history totaled 1094 days, or fewer, the application must fail.

ONLY if the calculation shows at least 1095 days credit is it even possible for the application to succeed. So that much is for sure necessary. This is why I fully concur with @scylla's observations about making sure to get travel history dates absolutely and precisely correct, "100%" . . . as @scylla put it . . . "you need to . . . be 100% sure that you have all of the right entry and exit dates." If you had a margin, a buffer, there might be some wiggle-room. You don't. There is no wiggle-room. To have any chance of success at all, your dates need to be perfect because that is what you need to add up to credit for 1095 days. Anything less fails.

That said, as you are experiencing, showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee it will succeed.

For most applicants, if the calculation based on travel history dates shows 1095 days credit, or more, that is enough. But that is because in conjunction with all the other information considered, IRCC does not doubt the completeness and accuracy of the travel history, and does not doubt the applicant actually was physically in Canada all those days in-between a date of entry and next exit. So they rely on that, relying on an inference that the applicant was physically IN Canada not just the day of entry, but the next day and the following days, all the days between the date of entry and next date of exit. That is how the online presence calculator works: it works based on this inference, it automatically counts and totals days from date of entry until next date of exit.

If that falls short, even by one day, the applicant is NOT qualified to be granted citizenship.

Here is the rub, which is something many appear to not grasp: even if the travel history dates show 1095 days presence, for that to be enough depends on that inference of presence all those in-between days . . . AND IRCC is not bound to make that inference. Canada has an incredibly porous border. There is no presumption of physical presence. All applicants, for example, must provide a complete address and activity history, and do so with sufficient information to enable IRCC to corroborate the physical presence calculation.

Expanding on that example: While address history and work history will be examined and compared to other information with some focus on whether the history is consistent with the applicant's reported travel history, the history is also examined and compared to consider whether it is consistent with and supports the applicant being actually physically present in Canada. Does the address and work history tend to show the applicant was actually physically present during ALL those days between reported dates of entry and next reported date of exit? Ultimately the latter may be more important, potentially a lot more important, than the travel history.​

Which leads back to recognizing that showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee an application will succeed.

If IRCC has doubts, it is the applicant's burden to present evidence sufficient to prove actual physical presence. And to present sufficient evidence that proves presence for at least 1095 days. That means evidence of presence for 1095 days, not just dates of entry and dates of exit. All a date of entry directly proves is presence for one day.

Many want IRCC to rely on CBSA travel history records, and assume or presume presence in Canada for the in-between days. But that is not how it works. IRCC looks at the CBSA travel history primarily to check on what the applicant has submitted, to see if there are any discrepancies or omissions with what the applicant has submitted. It is one way (among a number of ways) that IRCC is screening the applicant's credibility, to evaluate whether or not the applicant is a reliable reporter of the facts.

You kind of failed that test. Your account of travel history, in the application, was not complete, not accurate. In contrast, given that at best, at most, you were physically present for 730 days as a PR, which is the absolute minimum number of days needed to qualify for citizenship, that does not leave much room for doubt. Well, actually, it leaves no room for doubt.

There are many other tangents in your situation. It would be easy to get bogged down in clarifying whether the IRCC official you were dealing with was in fact the Citizenship Officer responsible for your case, or a processing agent. Routine PI interviews are usually done by a processing agent, who in turns provides the information to the responsible Citizenship Officer. If, in contrast, this was specifically a presence-case-interview with a Citizenship Officer, and this official clearly expressed skepticism and an intention to refer the case to a Citizenship Judge, that's different and a big deal, and that suggests the Citizenship Officer may very well indeed NOT be persuaded your information meets the burden of proof and so the case will be headed to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge.

I am not saying you will not prevail in a hearing with a Citizenship Judge. You might. But it is likely to take months or more to get there. And you might not prevail.

And even though it looks like this will go to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge, even that is not for sure.

For now, 1095 days gets you in the room where citizenship MIGHT be granted, but if and when challenged, it will take more than that to prove actual physical presence.
Thank you so much for the taking the time to provide me such a detailed response! I do confirm the interview was with the officer. everything in my application has been marked as completed except the Physical presence. However she mentioned the only reason I am sending you for hearing is beacuse you are short in days otherwise I would approve and grant you citizenship. Anyways I sent the office all calculation and hopefully I will get it but as you said the chances are very low. Please also keep in mind she said if the calculation is correct and it is not an IT glitch she will grant me citizenship . The issue here if she actually check the email and forms I sent her and do the calculation one more time.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,881
22,134
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thank you so much for the taking the time to provide me such a detailed response! I do confirm the interview was with the officer. everything in my application has been marked as completed except the Physical presence. However she mentioned the only reason I am sending you for hearing is beacuse you are short in days otherwise I would approve and grant you citizenship. Anyways I sent the office all calculation and hopefully I will get it but as you said the chances are very low. Please also keep in mind she said if the calculation is correct and it is not an IT glitch she will grant me citizenship . The issue here if she actually check the email and forms I sent her and do the calculation one more time.
IMO you should be prepared for the hearing. I would also be prepared for the possibility of RQ and going through that process (which will require you to dig up a ton fo documents to prove your presence in Canada). You omitted travel from your original application so that was incomplete and all absences were not declared - which unfortunately casts doubt on the accuracy of the rest. If you are now left with 1095 days exactly (or very close to that), you basically have zero buffer left for any further errors.

As I said, my husband has something like 150 extra days and forgot one same-day trip to the US which didn't even impact the count. That was enough to push him to further reviews and a crap ton of extra documentation.

But who knows, maybe you'll get lucky. Good luck and keep us updated!
 

akbardxb

Champion Member
Nov 18, 2013
1,244
464
Mississauga
LANDED..........
28-03-2014
There is more to it, and explaining that gets complicated, but for now here's the gist: if the Citizenship Officer handling your case is not persuaded the information submitted meets the burden of proving 1095 days of physical presence, the travel history is NOT enough.

Travel history dates showing at least 1095 days credit, based on counting date of entry through to the next date of exit, is the MINIMUM. If, as has been discussed, the calculation based on travel history totaled 1094 days, or fewer, the application must fail.

ONLY if the calculation shows at least 1095 days credit is it even possible for the application to succeed. So that much is for sure necessary. This is why I fully concur with @scylla's observations about making sure to get travel history dates absolutely and precisely correct, "100%" . . . as @scylla put it . . . "you need to . . . be 100% sure that you have all of the right entry and exit dates." If you had a margin, a buffer, there might be some wiggle-room. You don't. There is no wiggle-room. To have any chance of success at all, your dates need to be perfect because that is what you need to add up to credit for 1095 days. Anything less fails.

That said, as you are experiencing, showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee it will succeed.

For most applicants, if the calculation based on travel history dates shows 1095 days credit, or more, that is enough. But that is because in conjunction with all the other information considered, IRCC does not doubt the completeness and accuracy of the travel history, and does not doubt the applicant actually was physically in Canada all those days in-between a date of entry and next exit. So they rely on that, relying on an inference that the applicant was physically IN Canada not just the day of entry, but the next day and the following days, all the days between the date of entry and next date of exit. That is how the online presence calculator works: it works based on this inference, it automatically counts and totals days from date of entry until next date of exit.

If that falls short, even by one day, the applicant is NOT qualified to be granted citizenship.

Here is the rub, which is something many appear to not grasp: even if the travel history dates show 1095 days presence, for that to be enough depends on that inference of presence all those in-between days . . . AND IRCC is not bound to make that inference. Canada has an incredibly porous border. There is no presumption of physical presence. All applicants, for example, must provide a complete address and activity history, and do so with sufficient information to enable IRCC to corroborate the physical presence calculation.

Expanding on that example: While address history and work history will be examined and compared to other information with some focus on whether the history is consistent with the applicant's reported travel history, the history is also examined and compared to consider whether it is consistent with and supports the applicant being actually physically present in Canada. Does the address and work history tend to show the applicant was actually physically present during ALL those days between reported dates of entry and next reported date of exit? Ultimately the latter may be more important, potentially a lot more important, than the travel history.​

Which leads back to recognizing that showing 1095 days credit does not guarantee an application will succeed.

If IRCC has doubts, it is the applicant's burden to present evidence sufficient to prove actual physical presence. And to present sufficient evidence that proves presence for at least 1095 days. That means evidence of presence for 1095 days, not just dates of entry and dates of exit. All a date of entry directly proves is presence for one day.

Many want IRCC to rely on CBSA travel history records, and assume or presume presence in Canada for the in-between days. But that is not how it works. IRCC looks at the CBSA travel history primarily to check on what the applicant has submitted, to see if there are any discrepancies or omissions with what the applicant has submitted. It is one way (among a number of ways) that IRCC is screening the applicant's credibility, to evaluate whether or not the applicant is a reliable reporter of the facts.

You kind of failed that test. Your account of travel history, in the application, was not complete, not accurate. In contrast, given that at best, at most, you were physically present for 730 days as a PR, which is the absolute minimum number of days needed to qualify for citizenship, that does not leave much room for doubt. Well, actually, it leaves no room for doubt.

There are many other tangents in your situation. It would be easy to get bogged down in clarifying whether the IRCC official you were dealing with was in fact the Citizenship Officer responsible for your case, or a processing agent. Routine PI interviews are usually done by a processing agent, who in turns provides the information to the responsible Citizenship Officer. If, in contrast, this was specifically a presence-case-interview with a Citizenship Officer, and this official clearly expressed skepticism and an intention to refer the case to a Citizenship Judge, that's different and a big deal, and that suggests the Citizenship Officer may very well indeed NOT be persuaded your information meets the burden of proof and so the case will be headed to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge.

I am not saying you will not prevail in a hearing with a Citizenship Judge. You might. But it is likely to take months or more to get there. And you might not prevail.

And even though it looks like this will go to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge, even that is not for sure.

For now, 1095 days gets you in the room where citizenship MIGHT be granted, but if and when challenged, it will take more than that to prove actual physical presence.
This is great insight and has helped me understand my own case better (not that it matters now as I took oath almost 9 months ago!)
I applied with a significant buffer, not by design, but sheer tardiness and the entry / exit dates proved just that - physical presence on that particular day and nothing in between. I was self employed with no salary slips / T4s, plus I had travelled frequently to a country that has the facility of not stamping your passport on arrival or departure, even though I did not avail of it. Not a single trip missed from records and zero variance of reported vs. actual travel dates. CBSA records would not have shown anything different, yet I got RQLite.
Buffer or not, the only thing that matters is CONCRETE evidence of physical presence, of course after 1095!
 
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