United Nations service as eligible time abroad

[ali.bangash]

We currently have PR from protected persons route and our current time left to apply for citizenship is approximately 21 months. I have an employment opportunity to serve in United Nations in NY but that means we might not be eligible to apply for citizenship after 21 months.
Rules state that one must be a crown servant i-e

• were a permanent resident employed in or with the
  • Canadian Armed Forces
  • federal public administration
  • public service of a province or territory

My question is that whether working for United Nations abroad can be presented to IRCC at the time of citizenship application as eligible time abroad since :

1. The United Nations service is considered international civil service and since Canada is a founding member state of the United Nations, so serving in the United nations could possibly be considered as serving Canada
2. The Canadian government is a well established and a major donor to the United Nations projects worldwide.

A similar case has been successfully presented by one of our friends in the UK who was in the same situation as us and he was able to obtain his citizenship by having recognised the time he spent abroad serving in United Nations.

Do you think this can be replicated in Canada and if there could be a possibility to have our abroad time recognised while working for United Nations?

 

[armoured]

Do you think this can be replicated in Canada and if there could be a possibility to have our abroad time recognised while working for United Nations?

No, there's no possibility. Also note your time in service outside Canada also will not count towards residency obligation.

There are some rare exceptions that would or might apply if you were directly employed by the Canadian government while there / sent or seconded there by Canadian govt dept. But believe me, you would know.

And yes, other countries' legislation has specific carve-outs for service in intl organisations. Canada has similar recognized language but it does not apply to immigrationl/citizenship. So there's no 'wiggle room' or room for interpretation.

 

[montrealworker]

We currently have PR from protected persons route and our current time left to apply for citizenship is approximately 21 months. I have an employment opportunity to serve in United Nations in NY but that means we might not be eligible to apply for citizenship after 21 months.
Rules state that one must be a crown servant i-e

• were a permanent resident employed in or with the
  • Canadian Armed Forces
  • federal public administration
  • public service of a province or territory

My question is that whether working for United Nations abroad can be presented to IRCC at the time of citizenship application as eligible time abroad since :

1. The United Nations service is considered international civil service and since Canada is a founding member state of the United Nations, so serving in the United nations could possibly be considered as serving Canada
2. The Canadian government is a well established and a major donor to the United Nations projects worldwide.

A similar case has been successfully presented by one of our friends in the UK who was in the same situation as us and he was able to obtain his citizenship by having recognised the time he spent abroad serving in United Nations.

Do you think this can be replicated in Canada and if there could be a possibility to have our abroad time recognised while working for United Nations?

It is doable.... due to many reasons and as you mentioned UK accepted it.... Just find a good lawyer to put a good case.....

 

[armoured]

It is doable.... due to many reasons and as you mentioned UK accepted it.... Just find a good lawyer to put a good case.....

Do you have sources to support this claim?

It's pretty clear that no, it's absolutely not something that can be relied upon - and note it is a very different situation for someone trying to do so now, that is applying for citizenship today, vs someone deciding in advance to take a UN job in the hope that a legal case might work several years down the road. No, cannot be relied upon. (I'd also note: pretty important for someone who is a former protected person to know in advance, as they could stand to lose both PR status and potential citizenship, and end up having only their home country to return to).

Waste of money in my view. But I'd be perfectly happy to have someone spend the money and settle the case once and for all. Maybe those who suggest it is 'doable' should be the ones to do so, though.

 

[hawk39]

If the OP was hired by the government to work as a staff member of the Canadian mission to the UN, then I can see it counting towards citizenship because he/she would be considered a federal employee working outside of Canada serving Canadian interests. Perhaps this is what the OP's friend did in the UK.

But if the OP was going to work as an employee of the UN itself, without any affiliation to Canada, then it should not count.

 

[montrealworker]

Do you have sources to support this claim?

It's pretty clear that no, it's absolutely not something that can be relied upon - and note it is a very different situation for someone trying to do so now, that is applying for citizenship today, vs someone deciding in advance to take a UN job in the hope that a legal case might work several years down the road. No, cannot be relied upon. (I'd also note: pretty important for someone who is a former protected person to know in advance, as they could stand to lose both PR status and potential citizenship, and end up having only their home country to return to).

Waste of money in my view. But I'd be perfectly happy to have someone spend the money and settle the case once and for all. Maybe those who suggest it is 'doable' should be the ones to do so, though.

Mr. Hate is talking...... Please read above it was processed in uK which has much difficult system... It simply means its highly doable.... Your views on waste of money is your personal stuff cause for him its an important issue.

 

[dpenabill]

My question is that whether working for United Nations abroad can be presented to IRCC at the time of citizenship application as eligible time abroad . . .

The provisions which allow credit toward physical presence in Canada, for purposes of meeting the requirements for a grant of citizenship, are limited exceptions which are narrowly interpreted and applied. These are sections 5(1.01), 5(1.02), and 5(1.03) in the Citizenship Act.

The operative language in these provisions is this:

" . . . employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or the public service of a province, otherwise than as a locally engaged person . . ."​

@hawk39 nails an essential distinction, the difference between being employed by the Canadian government or a province and assigned to work at the UN, versus working for (being employed by) the UN.

If the employer is the UN, rather than Canada or a province of Canada, to what extent that employment benefits or serves Canada does not change things. Time abroad employed by the UN will not count in qualifying for Canadian citizenship.

@armoured identifies an additional concern for any PR considering an opportunity to be employed outside Canada by the UN. Not only will that employment not count toward qualifying for citizenship, it will not count toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. H&C relief may enable the PR to keep PR status, as it has for at least a couple PRs who failed to comply with the RO because of the time they spent abroad in the employ of the UN, but there is no guarantee and other PRs employed by the UN have lost PR status, afforded no relief based on their employment with the UN. This has been addressed in some depth here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-obligation-vis-working-for-international-organization.782262/

 

[ali.bangash]

The provisions which allow credit toward physical presence in Canada, for purposes of meeting the requirements for a grant of citizenship, are limited exceptions which are narrowly interpreted and applied. These are sections 5(1.01), 5(1.02), and 5(1.03) in the Citizenship Act.

The operative language in these provisions is this:

" . . . employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or the public service of a province, otherwise than as a locally engaged person . . ."​

@hawk39 nails an essential distinction, the difference between being employed by the Canadian government or a province and assigned to work at the UN, versus working for (being employed by) the UN.

If the employer is the UN, rather than Canada or a province of Canada, to what extent that employment benefits or serves Canada does not change things. Time abroad employed by the UN will not count in qualifying for Canadian citizenship.

@armoured identifies an additional concern for any PR considering an opportunity to be employed outside Canada by the UN. Not only will that employment not count toward qualifying for citizenship, it will not count toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. H&C relief may enable the PR to keep PR status, as it has for at least a couple PRs who failed to comply with the RO because of the time they spent abroad in the employ of the UN, but there is no guarantee and other PRs employed by the UN have lost PR status, afforded no relief based on their employment with the UN. This has been addressed in some depth here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-obligation-vis-working-for-international-organization.782262/

Appreciate your feedback. One question though since you mentioned h&c relief granted to some PRs to keep their PR status. Is there a possibility of any provision for h&c relief in granting citizenship while a PR is posted abroad with UN and there are multiple other factors involved such as PR being highly qualified in a licensed trade not able to obtain meaningful employment in Canada due to foreign credentials, living on lowest income band as demonstrated by previous tax returns and PRs family staying behind in Canada while is posted abroad living alone, can it be considered as hardship and together with all these factors is there any room for h&c relief for granting the citizenship in your opinion? Another factor that PR makes sure that their PR RO is fulfilled at the time of citizenship application

 

[dpenabill]

Appreciate your feedback. One question though since you mentioned h&c relief granted to some PRs to keep their PR status. Is there a possibility of any provision for h&c relief in granting citizenship while a PR is posted abroad with UN and there are multiple other factors involved such as PR being highly qualified in a licensed trade not able to obtain meaningful employment in Canada due to foreign credentials, living on lowest income band as demonstrated by previous tax returns and PRs family staying behind in Canada while is posted abroad living alone, can it be considered as hardship and together with all these factors is there any room for h&c relief for granting the citizenship in your opinion? Another factor that PR makes sure that their PR RO is fulfilled at the time of citizenship application

For adults, there is no flexibility in the physical presence requirement for a grant of citizenship under Section 5(1) in the Citizenship Act. One day short, the application must be denied. The only waiver of the requirement respecting length of physical presence, that is available, is in the case of a minor. See Section 5(3) in the Citizenship Act, which details the scope of the Minister's authority to waive requirements "on compassionate grounds". That can be read here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-2.html#docCont

There is a provision which allows the Minister, in "special cases," to grant citizenship "to reward services of an exceptional value to Canada." This is Section 5(4) in the Citizenship Act. All indications are this is indeed a rare exception, a very rare exception. Best guess is that short of being in the range of doing, or at least approaching Nobel prize worthy work, the odds are overwhelmingly not good.

I confess, though, I tend to dodge the hard questions. I cannot offer much beyond sorting out what the rules are, and figuring out what we can about how they are applied, how they work, generally. Getting this stuff right can be difficult enough in an open forum like this.

What is possible at the fringes goes into hard questions subject to lots and lots of if-this, then-that, but if-that, then-that-other-that, swimming in all sorts of maybe-this, maybe that, subject to a whole lot of uncertain contingencies. There are some forum participants who go there. Frankly, that input tends to not be helpful.

Based on a recent Federal Court decision (citation is not at my fingerprints) I understand that a 5(1) application cannot be converted into a 5(4) application. Which means to qualify for a 5(4) grant of citizenship, an individual must specifically make a 5(4) application. I recently searched for a form to make a 5(4) application (just academic research) and could find none. In addition to the 5(1) application and the 5(2) application (for a minor), which are the applications most people are talking about when talking about citizenship applications, I could find the form for making a 5(5) application (for certain stateless persons), but again none for making a 5(4) application (for a grant of citizenship to reward exceptional service). This, I'd suggest, is probably a clue, perhaps a big clue.

So possible, maybe, but likely a possibility much closer to impossible than it is to probable. By a lot I'd guess.

Regarding the PR Residency Obligation:

First, in regards to a PR with a citizenship application in process: yes, a failure to meet the PR RO can be grounds for IRCC to suspend processing a citizenship application pending a final determination as to the PR's admissibility; moreover, if the PR is issued a Removal Order while a citizenship application is pending, IRCC can deny the citizenship application (even though it is possible the PR could win an appeal and the Removal Order be set aside).

Secondly, if you are outside Canada more than 1095 days after the date of landing, within any five year period, there is a real risk of losing PR status despite how worthy or valuable the service at the UN is. Relying on H&C relief is always a gamble.

Frankly, before relying on H&C relief in regards to the PR Residency Obligation it would be prudent to consult with a lawyer AND get a second opinion from another lawyer . . . despite the favourable outcomes for the PRs in D'Almeida v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2019 CanLII 106794, https://canlii.ca/t/j3bcl and in Vaah v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2022 CanLII 35872, https://canlii.ca/t/jp29q It is warrants remembering that both D'Almeida and Vaah were issued Removal Orders and in order to save their PR status, both paid for lawyers to represent them in their appeals, and I am guessing those lawyers did not come cheap. Meanwhile there are other PRs for whom things did not go their way in their appeal. Relying on H&C relief is a gamble.

Sometimes life forces us to make really, really tough decisions . . . which of course are for each of to make based on our own best judgment in due consideration of our situations and priorities and preferences. I wish you well in your effort to navigate through this.

 

[armoured]

Another factor that PR makes sure that their PR RO is fulfilled at the time of citizenship application

I'd add, in brief to @dpenabill 's comprehensive response, that you should not count on H&C relief for the PR status as being the same thing as days in residence required for citizenship.

In my own very simple restatement so that there can be no confusion: in most cases, the leniency provided by H&C relief is only relief, and partial relief at that, from the consequences of not being in compliance with the residency obligation; it is not the same thing as having those days abroad recognized as days in Canada, in particular for purposes of citizenship.

And to repeat a point above: you cannot get that H&C consideration recognized in advance, even if you think you have a good case. Hence there will be uncertainty and risk.

While I don't wish to add to topics of concern, but since you are a former protected person (and I assume got PR status through that process): you should be careful about travelling to hyour country of origin (i.e. from which you received protection), and using or renewing your passport. Both could potentially be issues for citizenship and even your PR status.

That will presumably be an issue unless you have some other nationality as well - because while the UN does issue a document for some purposes including travel (the laissez-passer, which looks a bit like a passport but most definitely is not a passport), it falls well short of being sufficient for most travel and in many (most) cases requires using your civilian national passport. (I do not know how well a UN laissez-passer works in conjunction with the travel document the Canadian government issues to protected persons/PRs - my guess is 'not very well.')

Note that this may be an issue even for travelling to New York to take a position, because you'll need to be admitted to the USA - and that means using your home-country passport.

I'm not an expert on this, @dpenabill knows far more (I've mostly just read his threads). But to underline the point: being employed at UN outside Canada may be deeply inconvenient or incompatible with not using one's home country passport, and that may present serious and grave risks in getting citizenshp and possibly even retaining PR status.

I don't wish to fearmonger but I presume it's possible could affect PR status of immediate family members as well, in some scenarios.

All this to repeat: consider carefully. Only you can decide, but you also need to be informed of the potential issues before jumping.