Classic law school case, not classical....please HELP!

[cango2017]

Hi guys, I feel so grateful for this forum and have sourced so many useful hints and valuable points. However, I don't know if you guys ever experience this before or after, please see our law school case here:

Background info:

My wife got her PR in 2011 by the common-law partner. The ex-reltionship was about 6-7 years. Then after she got broke with her ex in Feb 2012, we got married in may 2012 and she's getting pregnant after one months we registered, so she went back to Canada in late 2012 for having our first baby and then had our second in 2016. During 2012-2018, she was going back and forth like a single mom and she renewed her PR card in 2017 , because I just couldn't get a visitor visa through, I got 6 times resufal so we were living apart in most of those years. After she's lived by meeting 3 out of 5 years(1125 days), she applied her citizenship and one months later our sponsorship application. That would be on Aug 2018 for citizenship. So after she handed in these applications, she and 2 kids came back hometown with me, during the time she wanted to come back, the Covid was outbreak and the world has changed so much as you all know. However, in the maintime, the CIC put her PR status into a investigation case maybe because of the date and instance that was very suspecious. So all cases is on-hold until Aug, 2022 while my wife is still outside Canada, it's suddenly with PFL informed by CIC, and she explained in letter again, thank God the case is finally closed, says no further action will be taken. And her citizenship application went on, she got the FP right after, get that done. Then, get online test done outside, passed. Coming to the interview, the offcier asked loads of questions about the investigtion being closed which is far away beyond citizenship quiries. She found that my wife's PR card expired, asked her when and how to come back to Canada. My wife was very honest and replied as going back from US. Then, the officer was blustered and asked her to apply for PRTD in order to further process her next oath ceremony(requested within letters later in 30 days). And she even emphasized that you cannot enter from US even it's not illegal, she said she put a note for border officer that won't let her in. Obviously, it is wild and too much beyond for citizenship. We feel that she's very subjective and meant to pick up something to fail us in our case.

Our questions:


1. If she apply for PRTD outside Canada and got negative, by any means, we'll definitely appeal for that. However, can the officer refuse our citizenship application once she knows we get refusal for PRTD in their system? Use that as a reason, no matter we're appealing against it?

2. What's the appealing procedue as she's pysically outside Canada? She hasn't lived on 365 days in previous year.

3. I suppose in her case, theoratically she'll be refused as not to meet the RO and that's the reason the officer's trapped her. I know we can apply for HC of PRTD, I don't know how the chances are in our case. For sure, we have best interest of children issue, Covid issue that forigners were banned due to that circumstances. Family is at first especially during the pandamic outbreak. What can we do?

4. If my wife goes streight back from US to Canada by private vehicle, will she be asked to get the PRTD again from citizenship officer as she's inside Canada? In this case, we'll probablly have to appeal against the inadmissionable report from CBSA.

Any inputs or help would be much appreciated!

Thank you all!

 

[akbardxb]

Hi guys, I feel so grateful for this forum and have sourced so many useful hints and valuable points. However, I don't know if you guys ever experience this before or after, please see our law school case here:

Background info:

My wife got her PR in 2011 by the common-law partner. The ex-reltionship was about 6-7 years. Then after she got broke with her ex in Feb 2012, we got married in may 2012 and she's getting pregnant after one months we registered, so she went back to Canada in late 2012 for having our first baby and then had our second in 2016. During 2012-2018, she was going back and forth like a single mom and she renewed her PR card in 2017 , because I just couldn't get a visitor visa through, I got 6 times resufal so we were living apart in most of those years. After she's lived by meeting 3 out of 5 years(1125 days), she applied her citizenship and one months later our sponsorship application. That would be on Aug 2018 for citizenship. So after she handed in these applications, she and 2 kids came back hometown with me, during the time she wanted to come back, the Covid was outbreak and the world has changed so much as you all know. However, in the maintime, the CIC put her PR status into a investigation case maybe because of the date and instance that was very suspecious. So all cases is on-hold until Aug, 2022 while my wife is still outside Canada, it's suddenly with PFL informed by CIC, and she explained in letter again, thank God the case is finally closed, says no further action will be taken. And her citizenship application went on, she got the FP right after, get that done. Then, get online test done outside, passed. Coming to the interview, the offcier asked loads of questions about the investigtion being closed which is far away beyond citizenship quiries. She found that my wife's PR card expired, asked her when and how to come back to Canada. My wife was very honest and replied as going back from US. Then, the officer was blustered and asked her to apply for PRTD in order to further process her next oath ceremony(requested within letters later in 30 days). And she even emphasized that you cannot enter from US even it's not illegal, she said she put a note for border officer that won't let her in. Obviously, it is wild and too much beyond for citizenship. We feel that she's very subjective and meant to pick up something to fail us in our case.

Our questions:


1. If she apply for PRTD outside Canada and got negative, by any means, we'll definitely appeal for that. However, can the officer refuse our citizenship application once she knows we get refusal for PRTD in their system? Use that as a reason, no matter we're appealing against it?

2. What's the appealing procedue as she's pysically outside Canada? She hasn't lived on 365 days in previous year.

3. I suppose in her case, theoratically she'll be refused as not to meet the RO and that's the reason the officer's trapped her. I know we can apply for HC of PRTD, I don't know how the chances are in our case. For sure, we have best interest of children issue, Covid issue that forigners were banned due to that circumstances. Family is at first especially during the pandamic outbreak. What can we do?

4. If my wife goes streight back from US to Canada by private vehicle, will she be asked to get the PRTD again from citizenship officer as she's inside Canada? In this case, we'll probablly have to appeal against the inadmissionable report from CBSA.

Any inputs or help would be much appreciated!

Thank you all!

Your best option would be an immigration lawyer, depending on your desire to pursue this, should IRCC / CBSA continue to have concerns about your application.

 

[scylla]

Hi guys, I feel so grateful for this forum and have sourced so many useful hints and valuable points. However, I don't know if you guys ever experience this before or after, please see our law school case here:

Background info:

My wife got her PR in 2011 by the common-law partner. The ex-reltionship was about 6-7 years. Then after she got broke with her ex in Feb 2012, we got married in may 2012 and she's getting pregnant after one months we registered, so she went back to Canada in late 2012 for having our first baby and then had our second in 2016. During 2012-2018, she was going back and forth like a single mom and she renewed her PR card in 2017 , because I just couldn't get a visitor visa through, I got 6 times resufal so we were living apart in most of those years. After she's lived by meeting 3 out of 5 years(1125 days), she applied her citizenship and one months later our sponsorship application. That would be on Aug 2018 for citizenship. So after she handed in these applications, she and 2 kids came back hometown with me, during the time she wanted to come back, the Covid was outbreak and the world has changed so much as you all know. However, in the maintime, the CIC put her PR status into a investigation case maybe because of the date and instance that was very suspecious. So all cases is on-hold until Aug, 2022 while my wife is still outside Canada, it's suddenly with PFL informed by CIC, and she explained in letter again, thank God the case is finally closed, says no further action will be taken. And her citizenship application went on, she got the FP right after, get that done. Then, get online test done outside, passed. Coming to the interview, the offcier asked loads of questions about the investigtion being closed which is far away beyond citizenship quiries. She found that my wife's PR card expired, asked her when and how to come back to Canada. My wife was very honest and replied as going back from US. Then, the officer was blustered and asked her to apply for PRTD in order to further process her next oath ceremony(requested within letters later in 30 days). And she even emphasized that you cannot enter from US even it's not illegal, she said she put a note for border officer that won't let her in. Obviously, it is wild and too much beyond for citizenship. We feel that she's very subjective and meant to pick up something to fail us in our case.

Our questions:


1. If she apply for PRTD outside Canada and got negative, by any means, we'll definitely appeal for that. However, can the officer refuse our citizenship application once she knows we get refusal for PRTD in their system? Use that as a reason, no matter we're appealing against it?

2. What's the appealing procedue as she's pysically outside Canada? She hasn't lived on 365 days in previous year.

3. I suppose in her case, theoratically she'll be refused as not to meet the RO and that's the reason the officer's trapped her. I know we can apply for HC of PRTD, I don't know how the chances are in our case. For sure, we have best interest of children issue, Covid issue that forigners were banned due to that circumstances. Family is at first especially during the pandamic outbreak. What can we do?

4. If my wife goes streight back from US to Canada by private vehicle, will she be asked to get the PRTD again from citizenship officer as she's inside Canada? In this case, we'll probablly have to appeal against the inadmissionable report from CBSA.

Any inputs or help would be much appreciated!

Thank you all!

So just to be clear, has she been outside of Canada since 2018? How many days of residency in Canada does she have within the last five years as of today? Sorry if I missed that in your post.

 

[firstax]

So are you saying that your spouse has been out of Canada since August 2018? So 4 years and 2 months? If that is true then the spouse doesn't meet the requirements for Permanent Residency. To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years.
1. Yes, chances are they may have already decided to because your spouse doesn't meet the Residency requirements to be a permanent resident and as such the application cannot proceed.
2. Contact a good immigration lawyer that has handled similar cases.
3. An immigration lawyer can give you better advice.
4. Same answer, this case requires legal expertise.

 

[cango2017]

So just to be clear, has she been outside of Canada since 2018? How many days of residency in Canada does she have within the last five years as of today? Sorry if I missed that in your post.

Yes, basically she had 200+ days in the past 5 years of today, so like 500 days in short due to the RO.

 

[cango2017]

So are you saying that your spouse has been out of Canada since August 2018? So 4 years and 2 months? If that is true then the spouse doesn't meet the requirements for Permanent Residency. To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years.
1. Yes, chances are they may have already decided to because your spouse doesn't meet the Residency requirements to be a permanent resident and as such the application cannot proceed.
2. Contact a good immigration lawyer that has handled similar cases.
3. An immigration lawyer can give you better advice.
4. Same answer, this case requires legal expertise.

Thank you. We've looking to it. Any pro lawyers recon?

 

[cango2017]

Your best option would be an immigration lawyer, depending on your desire to pursue this, should IRCC / CBSA continue to have concerns about your application.

Thanks! Any good lawyer recon?

 

[scylla]

Yes, basically she had 200+ days in the past 5 years of today, so like 500 days in short due to the RO.

Then I agree with everyone else. Hire a lawyer.

Good luck.

 

[cango2017]

Your best option would be an immigration lawyer, depending on your desire to pursue this, should IRCC / CBSA continue to have concerns about your application.

I mean even in this stage of citizenship interview...how could happen...it seems like they want to stop you coming back. PRTD should not be required for citizenship interview, isnt it? As long as I can get back to take oath, otherwise not a point... Also, it is even wild that the officer asks PRTD visa back to her within 30 days...how could this possible only if by refusal....very bad....

 

[Carlinius]

Yes, basically she had 200+ days in the past 5 years of today, so like 500 days in short due to the RO.

Her application is invalid because she does not meet the minimum residency requirements. She needs 2 years out of 5 minimum to maintain her residency status. Without PR she can't apply for citizenship.

Your wife can't go back to Canada without a valid PR card or without getting a PRTD. Even if she gets back to Canada by a miracle, her application is still invalid and will be denied.

 

[cango2017]

Her application is invalid because she does not meet the minimum residency requirements. She needs 2 years out of 5 minimum to maintain her residency status. Without PR she can't apply for citizenship.

Your wife can't go back to Canada without a valid PR card or without getting a PRTD. Even if she gets back to Canada by a miracle, her application is still invalid and will be denied.

Ok, makes sense. Thanks! But our case has been delayed due to various reasons. HC is definitely expected, case is not just a case, behind that it is a family of living creature.

 

[scylla]

I mean even in this stage of citizenship interview...how could happen...it seems like they want to stop you coming back. PRTD should not be required for citizenship interview, isnt it? As long as I can get back to take oath, otherwise not a point... Also, it is even wild that the officer asks PRTD visa back to her within 30 days...how could this possible only if by refusal....very bad....

The problem is that she hasn't maintained the residency requirement for PR while waiting for the citizenship application to be processed. This is why this is all happening. You have to continue to meet RO for PR while citizenship is in the works.

 

[cango2017]

The problem is that she hasn't maintained the residency requirement for PR while waiting for the citizenship application to be processed. This is why this is all happening. You have to continue to meet RO for PR while citizenship is in the works.

Ok got it. I was wondering will this RO be examined to every citizenship applicant or just being randomly selected? It seems many people come back through US to avoid this instance.
Thanks!

 

[firstax]

Ok got it. I was wondering will this RO be examined to every citizenship applicant or just being randomly selected? It seems many people come back through US to avoid this instance.
Thanks!

No. But they select randomly or if they have a reason to think you don't meet up the requirements

 

[dpenabill]

Our questions:


1. If she apply for PRTD outside Canada and got negative, by any means, we'll definitely appeal for that. However, can the officer refuse our citizenship application once she knows we get refusal for PRTD in their system? Use that as a reason, no matter we're appealing against it?

2. What's the appealing procedue as she's pysically outside Canada? She hasn't lived on 365 days in previous year.

3. I suppose in her case, theoratically she'll be refused as not to meet the RO and that's the reason the officer's trapped her. I know we can apply for HC of PRTD, I don't know how the chances are in our case. For sure, we have best interest of children issue, Covid issue that forigners were banned due to that circumstances. Family is at first especially during the pandamic outbreak. What can we do?

4. If my wife goes streight back from US to Canada by private vehicle, will she be asked to get the PRTD again from citizenship officer as she's inside Canada? In this case, we'll probablly have to appeal against the inadmissionable report from CBSA.

The situation is complicated and precarious enough that, as others have suggested, obtaining the assistance of a qualified legal professional in Canada is a good idea.

And, the situation is complicated and precarious enough that it would be impossible to come anywhere near close to adequately addressing this in the context of a forum discussion . . . another reason that a lawyer is a good idea.

Nonetheless I will address just some aspects.

Generally there is nothing wrong, let alone illegal, about traveling to Canada via the U.S. And a person with PR status who does this will be allowed to enter Canada. If they are a PR but they are not in compliance with the Residency Obligation, they can be subject to an inadmissibility Report and issued a Removal Order, but they would still be allowed into Canada and can appeal that.

BUT it appears in the course of applying to make a sponsorship application, concerns about RO compliance may have triggered a similar inadmissibility Report and proceedings on that . . . and if so, the precise outcome of those proceedings is critical.

It is not clear but you seem to be saying this happened but there was a favourable outcome, no Removal Order, and in effect a decision she still has PR status.

Assuming she still has PR status, to save her PR status she probably needs to come to Canada, and come to stay (for a good long while anyway), as soon as she can.

If she can travel via the U.S., that is probably a better choice than applying for a PR TD. But she can apply for a PR TD and make the H&C case in that application, and if a PR TD is granted, then she can come to Canada and may be able to save her citizenship application (it is not clear if the citizenship application can be saved; if not, she would have to start that over).

So, if she still has PR status and she can travel via the U.S., there is nothing wrong or illegal about traveling to Canada that way. She cannot be and will not be refused entry into Canada. HOWEVER, it is indeed likely that there is an alert in her GCMS records which will trigger a referral to Secondary at the Port-of-Entry. Since she is short of compliance with the Residency Obligation and obviously so (as I understand the situation she has now been outside Canada since 2018), there is a risk that she will have an inadmissibility Report prepared against her. If so (and frankly that seems likely but I do not know how it will actually go), she will then have an opportunity to make the H&C case why she should be allowed to keep PR status.

If a Removal Order is issued, again she can enter Canada and then initiate an appeal, and go from there. Best to get a lawyer. If, at the PoE, she is waived through into Canada, or if need be she succeeds in persuading a reviewing officer to not issue a Removal Order for H&C reasons, her PR status is OK. She can enter Canada and notify IRCC she is in Canada and prepared to proceed with her citizenship application. Main difficulty is that will still involve staying and waiting.

Meanwhile there are other aspects of the situation which . . . well, again, it is complicated. Even assuming she is allowed to keep PR status and even if she then is able to follow through and complete the citizenship application process, and become a Canadian citizen, it is not clear what the status of sponsoring you will be. Another question for a lawyer if and when she gets that far.

Note: the IRCC official conducting the interview probably had lots of reasons, from the perspective of a total stranger bureaucrat evaluating the case, justifying concerns of various sorts. And even if a Citizenship Officer goes out of their way to find a reason to deny the application, what matters is whether they do find a legitimate reason to deny the application. For an applicant who has been outside Canada so long as to prima facie appear in breach of the Residency Obligation, and a PR who attempted to sponsor a spouse while ineligible to do so (being outside Canada -- it is not sufficient to be in Canada just at the time of making the application), let alone a PR who has been subject to a Residency Determination proceeding (which it appears has happened), there are almost certainly going to be concerns about whether the applicant STILL meets all the qualifying requirements for a grant of citizenship.

So, best to get a lawyer's help . . . and otherwise continue to be honest and open and cooperative, and if she wants to save her PR status, let alone the chance to become a citizen, to come to Canada as soon as possible, and come prepared to stay.