Oath of Citizenship - expired PR Card - please help

[kcharito]

Dears,
I want to share my case to you. I feel desperate for any help/advise.

My wife any myself are Permanent residents who lived, worked in Canada for 3+ years , from 2014 up to 2017. Our 1st son was born in the country too.
Due to family reasons we had to return to Greece and we decided to stay.
In the meantime we applied for Citizenship.

To make the long story short(er):

Our PR cards are expired since 2019. We cannot meet the Residency obligation (outside Canada since 2017).
We had granted to give our citizenship tests from Greece.The first citizenship oath invitation was for August 8th. We requested to take the oath from Greece.Since last Thursday we know that our request to take the oath outside Canada was declined and they told us to return.
But how could we return ? If we apply for a PRTD I suppose it will be declined.

If we get an ETA can we take the oath?

If we travel via US by land can we enter Canada? I've heard that the only paper that is necessary is the landing immigrant one if you enter by car. But then I read about this 44(1) report.
Even if we enter, we are not supposed to renew our PR cards because during the oath ceremony we will be asked to destroy them.

How could we enter the country and become Canadians?

Any help will be much appreciated. I don't get a clear answer neither from IRCC nor even Embassy.

 

[scylla]

Dears,
I want to share my case to you. I feel desperate for any help/advise.

My wife any myself are Permanent residents who lived, worked in Canada for 3+ years , from 2014 up to 2017. Our 1st son was born in the country too.
Due to family reasons we had to return to Greece and we decided to stay.
In the meantime we applied for Citizenship.

To make the long story short(er):

Our PR cards are expired since 2019. We cannot meet the Residency obligation (outside Canada since 2017).
We had granted to give our citizenship tests from Greece.The first citizenship oath invitation was for August 8th. We requested to take the oath from Greece.Since last Thursday we know that our request to take the oath outside Canada was declined and they told us to return.
But how could we return ? If we apply for a PRTD I suppose it will be declined.

If we get an ETA can we take the oath?

If we travel via US by land can we enter Canada? I've heard that the only paper that is necessary is the landing immigrant one if you enter by car. But then I read about this 44(1) report.
Even if we enter, we are not supposed to renew our PR cards because during the oath ceremony we will be asked to destroy them.

How could we enter the country and become Canadians?

Any help will be much appreciated. I don't get a clear answer neither from IRCC nor even Embassy.

ETA will not be approved since your are PRs. You would need to renounce your PR status before you can qualify for an eTA.

You don't say why you have been outside of Canada for so long. However yes, you should expect the PRTD to be refused since you don't meet the residency requirements.

Flying to the US and reentering Canada through a land border using a private vehicle is likely the only option. As you mention, you'll have to hope you aren't reported for failing to meet the residency requirements.

Even if you're able to enter without being reported, it's possible you could still encounter challenges since you don't meet RO. You are required to continue to meet the residency obligation while waiting for citizenship.

It's a complicated situation. Not sure it's going to work out in your favour.

 

[kcharito]

ETA will not be approved since your are PRs. You would need to renounce your PR status before you can qualify for an eTA.

You don't say why you have been outside of Canada for so long. However yes, you should expect the PRTD to be refused since you don't meet the residency requirements.

Flying to the US and reentering Canada through a land border using a private vehicle is likely the only option. As you mention, you'll have to hope you aren't reported for failing to meet the residency requirements.

Even if you're able to enter without being reported, it's possible you could still encounter challenges since you don't meet RO. You are required to continue to meet the residency obligation while waiting for citizenship.

It's a complicated situation. Not sure it's going to work out in your favour.

Dear Scylla thank you for your reply.

We returned to Greece for family reasons.
While applied for citizenship my wife hit pregnant to our second child. He was born in 2019.
Then COVID-19 happened...Then my father's condition worsen and I lost him this year
Even if we could give the online test from Greece without problem, were not allowed to do the same for the oath.

The $1million question is this: Does an eTA suffice to be allowed to take the Oath?

Nobody could answer of course if a reported PR could allow us...

Our application was complete and approved when we were meeting the Residency Requirements. But then it took more time to reach the test, and the oath invitation

IRCC answers are too vague.

 

[scylla]

Dear Scylla thank you for your reply.

We returned to Greece for family reasons.
While applied for citizenship my wife hit pregnant to our second child. He was born in 2019.
Then COVID-19 happened...Then my father's condition worsen and I lost him this year
Even if we could give the online test from Greece without problem, were not allowed to do the same for the oath.

The $1million question is this: Does an eTA suffice to be allowed to take the Oath?

Nobody could answer of course if a reported PR could allow us...

Our application was complete and approved when we were meeting the Residency Requirements. But then it took more time to reach the test, and the oath invitation

IRCC answers are too vague.

You can't get an eTA. An eTA is not an option.

You do not qualify for an eTA as a PR.

 

[dpenabill]

Our PR cards are expired since 2019. We cannot meet the Residency obligation (outside Canada since 2017).
We had granted to give our citizenship tests from Greece.The first citizenship oath invitation was for August 8th. We requested to take the oath from Greece.Since last Thursday we know that our request to take the oath outside Canada was declined and they told us to return.
But how could we return ? If we apply for a PRTD I suppose it will be declined.

We returned to Greece for family reasons.
While applied for citizenship my wife hit pregnant to our second child. He was born in 2019.
Then COVID-19 happened...Then my father's condition worsen and I lost him this year
Even if we could give the online test from Greece without problem, were not allowed to do the same for the oath.

You deserve a straight answer, which includes acknowledging that there is a substantial risk (maybe a high risk) you will be denied citizenship and lose PR status. Staying abroad so long as to become inadmissible seriously risks keeping any status in Canada let alone becoming citizens.

In particular:

-- to have any chance at all of becoming Canadian citizens, you need to return to Canada; AND sooner not later​

​

-- to return to Canada you need to either​

-- -- apply for and be issued a PR Travel Document, or​

-- -- travel to the U.S. and then to Canada via a Port-of-Entry on the U.S./Canada border;​

​

-- either way (PR TD application or travel via U.S.) there is a very real risk there will be a decision to terminate your PR status, which would make you NOT eligible for citizenship . . . so either way, there is a real risk you will NOT become Canadian citizens and will lose PR status in Canada (child born in Canada will retain Canadian citizenship) . . . and in particular:​

-- -- since you have been outside Canada for more than three years, you are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and meet the definition of inadmissible; to qualify for a PR Travel Document you will thus need to make a persuasive H&C case, persuading the visa office that you deserve to keep PR status despite the PR RO breach; frankly, while factors like Covid would likely help you make that case, this could be a tough case to make​

-- -- similarly, again since you have been outside Canada for more than three years, are in RO breach, thus inadmissible, if you do travel via the U.S. so as to arrive in Canada via a land border crossing, there is a real risk that border officials will determine you are in breach and inadmissible, prepare an inadmissibility report resulting in the issuance of a Removal or Departure Order​

-- if a PR TD application is denied or the 44(1) Report process results in a Removal Order at a PoE on the U.S./Canada border, either way that constitutes a determination that will disqualify you from a grant of citizenship. You will have a right of appeal, and if you appeal it is possible (but not guaranteed) that the citizenship applications will be suspended pending the outcome of the appeal. If you lose the appeal, you lose BOTH PR status and the chance to become Canadian citizens.​

Further Observations:

So far as we can discern, the better odds would be to travel via the U.S. to Canada as soon as possible, and hope to be waived into Canada without a lot of questions, or if questioned at the border, that your explanation for why you have remained abroad so long, that is, why you did not return to Canada sooner, sufficiently makes an H&C case and leads to a decision allowing you to keep PR status despite breaching the RO. Frankly, the odds are high there will be, at the least, RO compliance questioning -- in addition to not having a valid PR card, there is probably a flag, an "alert," on your GCMS files, a signal to CBSA border officials, and visa offices abroad, to screen you for RO compliance.

We cannot reliably predict how that would go. Best case scenario is probably traveling to Canada via the U.S. (assuming that is possible), and then if not subject to the 44(1) Report process when you arrive, but allowed into Canada without being issued a Removal Order, you notify IRCC you are in Canada and then will need to stay for however long it takes for IRCC to schedule you for the oath. That is, best case scenario will require coming to Canada to stay for at least several weeks, but more likely several months if not longer, until you are scheduled for the oath again and you become Canadian citizens. Any predictions about the chances this is what will happen would be guessing, but frankly it would be no surprise if the chances of this succeeding are at best a long shot.

Whatever odds of success you have, those odds only get worse the longer it is before you come to Canada. I cannot guess whether the odds of success are good enough to even make doing the trip here worthwhile. And that's largely a personal decision.

Sorry. This is bad news and probably worse than you were expecting. But you deserve an honest, straight response.

 

[canuck78]

You deserve a straight answer, which includes acknowledging that there is a substantial risk (maybe a high risk) you will be denied citizenship and lose PR status. Staying abroad so long as to become inadmissible seriously risks keeping any status in Canada let alone becoming citizens.

In particular:

-- to have any chance at all of becoming Canadian citizens, you need to return to Canada; AND sooner not later​

​

-- to return to Canada you need to either​

-- -- apply for and be issued a PR Travel Document, or​

-- -- travel to the U.S. and then to Canada via a Port-of-Entry on the U.S./Canada border;​

​

-- either way (PR TD application or travel via U.S.) there is a very real risk there will be a decision to terminate your PR status, which would make you NOT eligible for citizenship . . . so either way, there is a real risk you will NOT become Canadian citizens and will lose PR status in Canada (child born in Canada will retain Canadian citizenship) . . . and in particular:​

-- -- since you have been outside Canada for more than three years, you are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and meet the definition of inadmissible; to qualify for a PR Travel Document you will thus need to make a persuasive H&C case, persuading the visa office that you deserve to keep PR status despite the PR RO breach; frankly, while factors like Covid would likely help you make that case, this could be a tough case to make​

-- -- similarly, again since you have been outside Canada for more than three years, are in RO breach, thus inadmissible, if you do travel via the U.S. so as to arrive in Canada via a land border crossing, there is a real risk that border officials will determine you are in breach and inadmissible, prepare an inadmissibility report resulting in the issuance of a Removal or Departure Order​

-- if a PR TD application is denied or the 44(1) Report process results in a Removal Order at a PoE on the U.S./Canada border, either way that constitutes a determination that will disqualify you from a grant of citizenship. You will have a right of appeal, and if you appeal it is possible (but not guaranteed) that the citizenship applications will be suspended pending the outcome of the appeal. If you lose the appeal, you lose BOTH PR status and the chance to become Canadian citizens.​

Further Observations:

So far as we can discern, the better odds would be to travel via the U.S. to Canada as soon as possible, and hope to be waived into Canada without a lot of questions, or if questioned at the border, that your explanation for why you have remained abroad so long, that is, why you did not return to Canada sooner, sufficiently makes an H&C case and leads to a decision allowing you to keep PR status despite breaching the RO. Frankly, the odds are high there will be, at the least, RO compliance questioning -- in addition to not having a valid PR card, there is probably a flag, an "alert," on your GCMS files, a signal to CBSA border officials, and visa offices abroad, to screen you for RO compliance.

We cannot reliably predict how that would go. Best case scenario is probably traveling to Canada via the U.S. (assuming that is possible), and then if not subject to the 44(1) Report process when you arrive, but allowed into Canada without being issued a Removal Order, you notify IRCC you are in Canada and then will need to stay for however long it takes for IRCC to schedule you for the oath. That is, best case scenario will require coming to Canada to stay for at least several weeks, but more likely several months if not longer, until you are scheduled for the oath again and you become Canadian citizens. Any predictions about the chances this is what will happen would be guessing, but frankly it would be no surprise if the chances of this succeeding are at best a long shot.

Whatever odds of success you have, those odds only get worse the longer it is before you come to Canada. I cannot guess whether the odds of success are good enough to even make doing the trip here worthwhile. And that's largely a personal decision.

Sorry. This is bad news and probably worse than you were expecting. But you deserve an honest, straight response.

Would they not need to return to Canada until they are compliant again with their RO in order to qualify for citizenship? Even if they stay for a few months they still don’t meet the requirements for citizenship and should be denied. If they can enter Canada without getting reported they need to reestablish RO and can then reapply for citizenship.

 

[dpenabill]

Would they not need to return to Canada until they are compliant again with their RO in order to qualify for citizenship? Even if they stay for a few months they still don’t meet the requirements for citizenship and should be denied. If they can enter Canada without getting reported they need to reestablish RO and can then reapply for citizenship.

NO, that is NOT correct. If they are waived through a Port-of-Entry and no 44(1) Report is prepared, they remain eligible for the grant of citizenship.

Remember the PR Residency Obligation is NOT self-enforcing. A breach of the RO has NO effect on the PR's status UNLESS there is an adjudication, a formal "Residency Determination." There would be a Residency Determination if they apply for a PR Travel Document. There MIGHT be a Residency Determination at the PoE upon arrival in Canada, but if the border officials waive the PRs through without conducting a Residency Determination, their PR status is unaffected, it remains valid.

Likewise if they are examined at the PoE and waived through based on H&C reasons. Their PR status remains intact and they remain eligible for the grant of citizenship.

In contrast . . .

If they apply for a PR TD and are denied, or if they travel via the U.S. and are subject to the 44(1) process at the PoE, resulting in the issuance of a Removal Order, at best they can appeal and further action in regards to the citizenship applications will be suspended. Final outcome depends on winning the appeal.

A PR who is subject of a Removal Order is not eligible for a grant of citizenship. This is prescribed by Section 5(1)(f) Citizenship Act. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-2.html#docCont Without revisiting how this is applied in practice I am not sure how IRCC handles unenforceable Removal Orders, that is, Removal Orders subject to a pending appeal. For sure, if the Removal Order becomes enforceable, that will result in the denial of citizenship. My sense is that even if the Removal Order is not enforceable, it can be grounds for denying the citizenship application, but it appears there are a number of actual cases in which IRCC only suspends further processing pending the outcome of the appeal. This is why in response to the OP's query I said, if a Removal Order is issued at the PoE, and they appeal "it is possible (but not guaranteed) that the citizenship applications will be suspended pending the outcome of the appeal," where in this context the process is suspended rather than the application outright denied.

Note that in particular, if a 44(1) Report is prepared, Section 13.1(b) in the Citizenship Act provides that processing the citizenship application may be suspended pending a determination as to whether a removal order is to be issued. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-4.html#h-82034

Additionally, Section 13.1(a) in the Citizenship Act provides that processing the citizenship application may be suspended to determine IF the applicant SHOULD be subject to an admissibility hearing or a Removal Order. However, absent a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility there has been NO reporting (not anecdotally, and not in official accounts of actual cases) that IRCC officials handling a citizenship application make referrals to investigate a RO breach, at any stage of the process, let alone AFTER the grant of citizenship has been approved and is only dependent on the final step in which the oath is taken and citizenship actually conferred. That said, there have been many indications that IRCC officials handling a citizenship application will post an alert, what we typically refer to as a "flag," in the PR's GCMS, which significantly increases the probability the PR will be more closely examined upon arriving at a PoE into Canada, elevating the risk that the PR in RO breach will be subject to 44(1) Proceedings when they next return to Canada. The latter is why, in regards to the PoE screening upon arrival via the U.S., I cautioned the OP:

"Frankly, the odds are high there will be, at the least, RO compliance questioning -- in addition to not having a valid PR card, there is probably a flag, an "alert," on your GCMS files, a signal to CBSA border officials, and visa offices abroad, to screen you for RO compliance."​

BUT no . . . just being in breach of the RO, absent any enforcement action taken, does not affect a PR's eligibility for citizenship.

 

[canuck78]

NO, that is NOT correct. If they are waived through a Port-of-Entry and no 44(1) Report is prepared, they remain eligible for the grant of citizenship.

Remember the PR Residency Obligation is NOT self-enforcing. A breach of the RO has NO effect on the PR's status UNLESS there is an adjudication, a formal "Residency Determination." There would be a Residency Determination if they apply for a PR Travel Document. There MIGHT be a Residency Determination at the PoE upon arrival in Canada, but if the border officials waive the PRs through without conducting a Residency Determination, their PR status is unaffected, it remains valid.

Likewise if they are examined at the PoE and waived through based on H&C reasons. Their PR status remains intact and they remain eligible for the grant of citizenship.

In contrast . . .

If they apply for a PR TD and are denied, or if they travel via the U.S. and are subject to the 44(1) process at the PoE, resulting in the issuance of a Removal Order, at best they can appeal and further action in regards to the citizenship applications will be suspended. Final outcome depends on winning the appeal.

A PR who is subject of a Removal Order is not eligible for a grant of citizenship. This is prescribed by Section 5(1)(f) Citizenship Act. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-2.html#docCont Without revisiting how this is applied in practice I am not sure how IRCC handles unenforceable Removal Orders, that is, Removal Orders subject to a pending appeal. For sure, if the Removal Order becomes enforceable, that will result in the denial of citizenship. My sense is that even if the Removal Order is not enforceable, it can be grounds for denying the citizenship application, but it appears there are a number of actual cases in which IRCC only suspends further processing pending the outcome of the appeal. This is why in response to the OP's query I said, if a Removal Order is issued at the PoE, and they appeal "it is possible (but not guaranteed) that the citizenship applications will be suspended pending the outcome of the appeal," where in this context the process is suspended rather than the application outright denied.

Note that in particular, if a 44(1) Report is prepared, Section 13.1(b) in the Citizenship Act provides that processing the citizenship application may be suspended pending a determination as to whether a removal order is to be issued. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-4.html#h-82034

Additionally, Section 13.1(a) in the Citizenship Act provides that processing the citizenship application may be suspended to determine IF the applicant SHOULD be subject to an admissibility hearing or a Removal Order. However, absent a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility there has been NO reporting (not anecdotally, and not in official accounts of actual cases) that IRCC officials handling a citizenship application make referrals to investigate a RO breach, at any stage of the process, let alone AFTER the grant of citizenship has been approved and is only dependent on the final step in which the oath is taken and citizenship actually conferred. That said, there have been many indications that IRCC officials handling a citizenship application will post an alert, what we typically refer to as a "flag," in the PR's GCMS, which significantly increases the probability the PR will be more closely examined upon arriving at a PoE into Canada, elevating the risk that the PR in RO breach will be subject to 44(1) Proceedings when they next return to Canada. The latter is why, in regards to the PoE screening upon arrival via the U.S., I cautioned the OP:

"Frankly, the odds are high there will be, at the least, RO compliance questioning -- in addition to not having a valid PR card, there is probably a flag, an "alert," on your GCMS files, a signal to CBSA border officials, and visa offices abroad, to screen you for RO compliance."​

BUT no . . . just being in breach of the RO, absent any enforcement action taken, does not affect a PR's eligibility for citizenship.

For some reason was always under the impression that you needed to remain compliant with your RO as a PR throughout the citizenship processing period. That’s why I believed they needed to remain for 2 years. Clearly am wrong.

 

[SecularFirst]

For some reason was always under the impression that you needed to remain compliant with your RO as a PR throughout the citizenship processing period. That’s why I believed they needed to remain for 2 years. Clearly am wrong.

Does that mean applicant can spend 1096 days inside, apply and leave the next day with no issues? Can come back for oath.

 

[dpenabill]

For some reason was always under the impression that you needed to remain compliant with your RO as a PR throughout the citizenship processing period. That’s why I believed they needed to remain for 2 years. Clearly am wrong.

Yes, it is important to remain compliant with the RO right up to taking the oath . . . because a PR who is not in compliance meets the definition of "inadmissible," and an inadmissible PR is at risk of RO enforcement.

Again, the RO is not self-enforcing. So just breaching the RO does not, in itself, affect a PR's status. So that, in itself, does not affect the PR's eligibility for citizenship. BUT the PR is at risk of proceedings to terminate their status, and in particular if a 44(1) Report is prepared, that is grounds for suspending processing of a citizenship application, and if in those proceedings the PR becomes "subject" to a Removal Order, that renders the PR ineligible for a grant of citizenship.

Similarly, if a PR Travel Document application is denied because the PR has not complied with the RO, that terminates the PR's status and renders the PR NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship . . . even if the citizenship application has already been approved and the oath scheduled. What I am not clear about is whether IRCC will suspend further action of the citizenship application pending an appeal of the decision denying the PR TD, or proceed to deny the citizenship application.

In any event, if the appeal of either a Removal Order or denied PR TD is dismissed, the individual is no longer a PR, no longer eligible for citizenship, so if action on the citizenship application has been suspended pending the appeal, it will then be denied.

 

[pxu061]

Yes, it is important to remain compliant with the RO right up to taking the oath . . . because a PR who is not in compliance meets the definition of "inadmissible," and an inadmissible PR is at risk of RO enforcement.

Again, the RO is not self-enforcing. So just breaching the RO does not, in itself, affect a PR's status. So that, in itself, does not affect the PR's eligibility for citizenship. BUT the PR is at risk of proceedings to terminate their status, and in particular if a 44(1) Report is prepared, that is grounds for suspending processing of a citizenship application, and if in those proceedings the PR becomes "subject" to a Removal Order, that renders the PR ineligible for a grant of citizenship.

Similarly, if a PR Travel Document application is denied because the PR has not complied with the RO, that terminates the PR's status and renders the PR NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship . . . even if the citizenship application has already been approved and the oath scheduled. What I am not clear about is whether IRCC will suspend further action of the citizenship application pending an appeal of the decision denying the PR TD, or proceed to deny the citizenship application.

In any event, if the appeal of either a Removal Order or denied PR TD is dismissed, the individual is no longer a PR, no longer eligible for citizenship, so if action on the citizenship application has been suspended pending the appeal, it will then be denied.

Hi,

Thanks for the useful information here.

I have a situation here - 1) PR renewal still in process, 2) Citizenship Oath invitation comes, 3) outside of the Canada and PR card expired. I do have a COPR but that's issued in 2018... Would I be able to enter Canada with it from the US (I have US tourism visa), and would I be able to take the oath?

I definitely met the PR renewal requirement, but it just took them over 5 months to review for some reason.. Would contact MP help in this case?

Appreciate the help! Thanks!

Best,
Paul

 

[armoured]

I have a situation here - 1) PR renewal still in process, 2) Citizenship Oath invitation comes, 3) outside of the Canada and PR card expired. I do have a COPR but that's issued in 2018... Would I be able to enter Canada with it from the US (I have US tourism visa), and would I be able to take the oath?

Yes, and entering via USA by land is by far your simplest and most timely option.

I definitely met the PR renewal requirement, but it just took them over 5 months to review for some reason.. Would contact MP help in this case?

Possibly, but why? Enter via USA, take your oath, become citizen, and you no longer need your PR card anyway.

 

[pxu061]

Yes, and entering via USA by land is by far your simplest and most timely option.



Possibly, but why? Enter via USA, take your oath, become citizen, and you no longer need your PR card anyway.

Thank you!
But I've heard there are cases where the Canadian officials would deny you or strip your PR status... Feel like there's a risk? Like if everyone can just enter Canada this way why even bother apply for a PRTD.

Would delaying the ceremony be a safer bet ... so I can just wait for my PR card to come? Thanks again!

 

[scylla]

Thank you!
But I've heard there are cases where the Canadian officials would deny you or strip your PR status... Feel like there's a risk? Like if everyone can just enter Canada this way why even bother apply for a PRTD.

Would delaying the ceremony be a safer bet ... so I can just wait for my PR card to come? Thanks again!

As mentioned in your other threads, this information is incorrect. There is no such risk.

As for why people apply for PRTDs, most do not have US visas or other status in the US that allows them to easily enter the US. So most people cannot enter Canada this way. Without a US visa and without a valid PR card, you need a PRTD to be able to board a plane and return to Canada.

 

[pxu061]

As mentioned in your other threads, this information is incorrect. There is no such risk.

As for why people apply for PRTDs, most do not have US visas or other status in the US that allows them to easily enter the US. So most people cannot enter Canada this way. Without a US visa and without a valid PR card, you need a PRTD to be able to board a plane and return to Canada.

This makes sense. I really appreciate your guidance. Thank you so much!