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Ponga

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Meanwhile, I recently, in another thread, made a rough or crude effort to explain some of the differences between CBSA entry records for an individual compared to the CBSA data regarding an individual's exits from Canada. The latter is NOT collected directly by CBSA, so to the extent CBSA has exit information it is information from sources other than CBSA, such as information obtain from U.S. authorities, of entry into the U.S., for which an inference of exit may be made, or such as information derived from commercial carrier manifests.
Yes, per the Memorandum of Understanding - Executive Summary.
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/mou-pe-eng.html

This part jumps out at me:
"Canada and the U.S. exchange entry data to create exit records. This enables both countries to more effectively manage their common border. Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency, or for any other lawful purposes consistent with each country’s domestic laws and policies."
 

armoured

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Yes, per the Memorandum of Understanding - Executive Summary.
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/mou-pe-eng.html

This part jumps out at me:
"Canada and the U.S. exchange entry data to create exit records. This enables both countries to more effectively manage their common border. Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency, or for any other lawful purposes consistent with each country’s domestic laws and policies."
I don't see how that contradicts what was written. If the parties exchange information, that is rather clear that one of the parties 'holds' or owns or whatever the information (or no exchange would be necessary).

And 'such data may be used to verify' in no way states that such a record does confirm residence, or will be considered proof of residence, or any one of a number of other things. It means it may be used if they wish or to the extent they desire to confirm or refute other information.

Yes, it shoudl get easier as records more complete. Doesn't mean it will be perfect.
 
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Ponga

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I don't see how that contradicts what was written. If the parties exchange information, that is rather clear that one of the parties 'holds' or owns or whatever the information (or no exchange would be necessary).

And 'such data may be used to verify' in no way states that such a record does confirm residence, or will be considered proof of residence, or any one of a number of other things. It means it may be used if they wish or to the extent they desire to confirm or refute other information.

Yes, it shoudl get easier as records more complete. Doesn't mean it will be perfect.
Ok...what about this, then:
"Canada and the U.S. exchange entry data to create exit records. This enables both countries to more effectively manage their common border. Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency, or for any other lawful purposes consistent with each country’s domestic laws and policies."

Shouldn't that exit data be available to the traveler if they request it? The problem is...from whom would it be requested?
 

dpenabill

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I am going to make a fairly big deal out of this discussion, to illustrate a broader point about reading and interpreting IRCC and related information.

Way, way beyond what IRCC or any of its personnel would say . . .

Proceed at your own risk.

Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency
As is common, others like @armoured are able to more succinctly state what takes me a sprawling mob of words encumbered with nuances and caveats, distinctions distinguishing distinctions, with an inclination to occasionally wallow in Derridean deconstruction:

And 'such data may be used to verify' in no way states that such a record does confirm residence, or will be considered proof of residence, or any one of a number of other things. It means it may be used if they wish or to the extent they desire to confirm or refute other information.
YEP. Well said.

Nonetheless, this one warrants some further explication and emphasis, including at least a bit of Derridean deconstruction, emphasizing in particular the distinctions are not mere semantics but in some ways go to the heart of what so commonly underlies and, frankly, sabotages much of the interpretation and commentary about matters like this, which is the tendency to read and understand things subjectively rather than objectively (and typically with an ego-centric bias leaning toward self-serving interpretations -- and we all, ALL of us, have such a tendency).

However, this also comes with a caveat (there dpenabill goes again, so many must groan), that there is indeed the pitfall of reading too much, sometimes way too much, into the meaning of individual terms.

Underlying the latter is how often and the extent to which IRCC is imprecise and sometimes inconsistent. This is sometimes seen in more than government sources of information, that is even in formal transactions as well as online information, often employing language rather casually. "Travel Document" is among such terms, used variably even within government sources even though the law and regulations draw definite if not strict technical distinctions. "Canadian" is similarly used with variable meanings, sometimes clearly referring only to Canadian citizens even though usually used consistent with immigration law pursuant to which Canadian PRs are also Canadians.

But this is especially true in regards to when IRCC is too casual or excessively broad in its use of words, sometimes to the point of being misleading. This was a huge problem when qualifying for citizenship was about a residency requirement rather than a physical presence requirement, and CIC's online information egregiously understated the huge difference it made if an applicant applied based on three years of residency while still short of three years of actual physical presence, more or less enticing scores and scores of applicants to apply when that would result in their application being bogged down in RQ, typically adding more than another year, sometimes two or three years, to the processing timeline, and all the anxiety, inconvenience, and outright difficulties imposed by the intrusive RQ process, with a real risk the application could be summarily denied depending on which test of residency the Citizenship Judge applied, with no advance notice or even a hint which test (among the several used) would be the test actually applied.


Back to the topic at hand:
"Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency."

Compare contrasting interpretations, different ways of understanding what this means:

CBSA travel history records might be examined to check the accuracy and completeness of what the applicant submits, including the applicant's travel history submitted to show days present in Canada.
versus
CBSA travel history records are used to determine the applicant's travel history and days present in Canada.

Many think it is more like the latter. Some apparently believing this is actually what IRCC does. Many more asserting this is what IRCC should be doing. And if not now, sooner than later.

What is done, as best we can discern, is far more like the first.

Note, there are two terms which loom large in this phrase "Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency."

@armoured nailed the first, the term "may," which does NOT mean "will" but "might." It seems, however, many if not most have a tendency to read that something *WILL* happen when IRCC or CBSA inform the public about what *MAY* (as in might, and more to the point, might not) happen.

The other term which looms large in this is "verify." I am not sure why this term is so often misconstrued, but again and again posts in this forum tend to frame this as a process to *determine* or *ascertain* or *establish* dates of travel history.

Suggested homework exercise: look up and compare meaning and synonyms for "verify" and "determine" . . . spoiler alert: there is almost NO overlap at all. There is not really any reason to confuse what "verify" means, even though that is so common here.​

There really is no rational basis for interpreting "verify," in the context here, to mean that IRCC will use CBSA travel history records to figure out or determine the PRs travel history. They will use it to find out if there is any information suggesting or showing that what the PR submitted about travel history and residence in Canada is inaccurate or incomplete.

While things may change in the future, for now and going forward, increases and improvements in CBSA record-capturing, storage, and accessibility, mostly means that IRCC can better check the applicant's information, better find out when PRs are submitting inaccurate or incomplete travel history information. This does not make it easier, or at least not by much, for PRs who apply for a new PR card or for citizenship. It makes it a lot easier for IRCC to catch omissions and inaccuracies.
 

dpenabill

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Further Observations About How IRCC Uses "May:"

Among the more misleading examples in which IRCC uses "may," perhaps among the worst, could be in its information that a PR "may" get credit toward RO compliance if they are working abroad for a Canadian business. There are many, many more scenarios in which a PR abroad in the employ of a Canadian business does not qualify for this exception than those in which PRs do get this credit. It's a common refrain in this forum, PRs citing the online IRCC information about this credit and being incredulous when forum members push back some and explain that there is additional criteria which is applied strictly. "May" here means little more than there is a possibility the time abroad working for a Canadian business will count as RO credit, depending on meeting the additional requirements to get the credit.

In contrast, back when there was a residency requirement for citizenship, CIC online information cautioned that applying based on residency while short of 1095 days actual presence "may" result in a Citizenship Judge having to decide if the applicant was qualified. At the time, actually every grant of citizenship to adults had to be decided by a CJ, but the procedure actually employed in doing that was hugely different if RQ was involved, and in the meantime the Harper government had implemented a practice of referring nearly all (if not all) residency-based applications, which were short of 1095 days actual presence, for a full blown RQ process AND a referral for a full-blown residency determination hearing with a CJ. In that context, CIC's use of "may" actually meant the application would almost certainly be processed very differently, far more strictly, subject to onerous and lengthy procedural impediments.


Further Elaboration of What "Verify" Means or Entails:

The synonyms for "verify" largely tell the tale, such as synonyms like: authenticate, test, confirm, certify, check, double-check, or corroborate. No indication that verification is a fact finding function, something done to learn or figure out or determine what the facts are. It is an authentication function, something done to establish whether proffered information, whether a set of facts as presented, is true.

So the hugely critical element here is the object of verification: just what is being verified. And oh yeah, IRCC online information, and its instructions for applications, do indeed tend to understate this. It is the PRs account of travel history, the PRs account of residency or days present in Canada. That is what is being verified. That is what is being checked.

Minor and incidental discrepancies (small mistakes) are typically no big deal, but if and when IRCC finds information tending to cast doubt on the information submitted by the PR, doubt about the travel history submitted by the PR, that is when there is a problem. How much so will depend on the nature and extent of the discrepancies in the context of other information which may indicate there is no cause for concern, or cause to further scrutinize the PR and the PR's information (such as asking the PR to submit certain documents or additional information), or cause to have serious concerns and commence more extensive investigation.

I realize I am pounding away at things many know and understand. Some might even characterize this as restating the obvious. But there is clearly widespread misunderstanding about the relationship between IRCC's consideration of CBSA travel history information and, in contrast, the extent to which documenting travel history and establishing days present in Canada is very much the PR's task, the PR's burden, both as to presenting the information and ultimately as to proving it.

As previously noted: While things may change in the future, for now and going forward, increases and improvements in CBSA record-capturing, storage, and accessibility, mostly means that IRCC can better find out when PRs are submitting inaccurate or incomplete travel history information. This does not make it easier, or at least not by much, for PRs who apply for a new PR card or for citizenship. It makes it a lot easier for IRCC to catch omissions and inaccuracies.


Ok...what about this, then:
"Canada and the U.S. exchange entry data to create exit records. This enables both countries to more effectively manage their common border. Such data may be used to verify travel dates or residency, or for any other lawful purposes consistent with each country’s domestic laws and policies."

Shouldn't that exit data be available to the traveler if they request it? The problem is...from whom would it be requested?
What information is captured and maintained in particular PIBs (Personal Information Banks) is an incredibly big and complex subject. Canada's access to information scheme likewise, albeit the government has implemented some policies and practices to simplify things in regards to certain things. For instance, as many forum participants illustrate, by personal example, IRCC has made the procedure for an ATIP request as to a pending application fairly straight-forward and simple, allowing citizenship applicants, for example, to readily obtain copies of GCMS records for their citizenship application. Just about that easy to get entry records from CBSA.

I have barely scratched the surface in some previous posts (bulk of which are now a few years old) regarding what PIBs there are (and this is always evolving), and what information is readily accessed in those PIBs. While I somewhat addressed the key elements underlying what can be accessed, ranging from what is collected to how it is collected, by whom, and then what is stored and how it is stored, again by whom, in regards to that it cannot be said that the volumes I wrote about this, and the vastly greater volume of what I researched, even barely scratch the surface.

So, the short answer is that a fair amount of the information you are referencing is indeed "available," but how to obtain it is not an easy proposition. How to compose an effective request for information based on ATI and Privacy law is easy for some stuff, difficult for a lot of stuff, and requires a lot of expertise and experience for a lot of other stuff. It can take years, lots of trial and error, often some litigation, for some very experienced investigative journalists to navigate the process to get what they know is there and are entitled to get.

And some of it is not available. Raw data, for example, is only partially accessible, since (among other limiting circumstances) it may contain personal information subject to restricted disclosure. Since the personal information in such data sources is not specifically identified connected to the respective individuals, not linked to the individual, it cannot be obtained by an individual through the ATIP or ATI procedure. But to the extent the data contains personal information, it will not be accessible by the public either, through the ATI process.

But that data can be probed and analyzed, and thus will sometimes be used to facilitate investigations. To dig details out of the raw data.

I am not at all sure, not even confident I am close to knowing, but my sense is that the U.S. entry records (and other indirectly derived records, like exit information derived from flight manifests) are probably not stored by CBSA catalogued by individual in a PIB. Rather, it is likely to be data stored in some sort of bulk form and which upon request (which probably requires a kind of for-cause reason) can be examined, "mined" some describe the process, for particular information, such as analyzing the data to find information about a specific individual's exits from Canada as documented in the data obtained from the U.S. entry records and derived from flight manifests . . . used, for example, to verify an individual's travel history.

The systems employed are probably migrating toward a more automated process, so that exit records will likely become as readily accessible as entry records are currently. Where CBSA is at in fully developing and implementing this functionality I do not know . . . but would suggest a person could learn quite a bit about if they make a carefully drafted ATI request to CBSA.

NONETHELESS . . . the SHORT But NOT-So-Sweet of it . . . for now and going forward for some time to come, travel history is the PR's burden. The importance of keeping a personal, accurate record cannot be overstated.

By the way, U.S. citizens generally (most by far) must file a U.S. tax return, and as I recall most credits and deductions related to not being a resident in the U.S. typically (usually) require the taxpayer to similarly report to IRS their travel history into the U.S. Does not have the same level of importance as an application for citizenship or a renewed PR card, but even after the U.S. citizen becomes a Canadian citizen, this is likely to continue to be part of the basic personal record-keeping that needs to be done.
 
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armoured

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I am not at all sure, not even confident I am close to knowing, but my sense is that the U.S. entry records (and other indirectly derived records, like exit information derived from flight manifests) are probably not stored by CBSA catalogued by individual in a PIB. Rather, it is likely to be data stored in some sort of bulk form and which upon request (which probably requires a kind of for-cause reason)
A specific comment on the 'records' derived from, originated by, or 'owned by' the USA and 'shared with' Canadian authorities:

-I do not know but think likely or possible that they are not outright 'stored' by Canadian authorities at all (but instead accessed when needed by specific Canadian agencies); and/or,
-access to them including by access to information/privacy requests is governed by agreements and treaties with US authorities and therefore exempted or excluded from the usual access to information requests (or much more severely limited).

In addition there are a number of other potential exemptions such as the 'sources and methods' exemptions under access to information.

Short form: not only may the 'entries to US' not be included in such requests, it may simply not be allowed for CBSA to release such information - because they never 'owned' it in the first place and only have records that hint at what they found (and those parts of the records not subject to disclosure either). This is only more complicated if the request is to an agency such as IRCC that gets the info from CBSA.

Even shorter form: 'requests' under ATIP may just not show these records. That government "may" consult them does not mean that you "will" get copies.
 

Ponga

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I am going to make a fairly big deal out of this discussion, to illustrate a broader point about reading and interpreting IRCC and related information.

Way, way beyond what IRCC or any of its personnel would say . . .

Proceed at your own risk.
Your keystrokes know no bounds; always an interesting read...no matter how long it takes!

Thank you for sharing.