Will we have RO obligation issues?

[mastersboy]

My wife and I have lived together in Canada as graduate students from August 2015 to August 2017. Up on graduating we got PGWPs and started working. We got our PRs and landed in May 2018. However, my wife had to move back to U.S. in June 2018 (after a month and a half of living in Canada as a PR). She has been iving in the U.S. since and visits me often (may be 10 days of visits since June 2018, so total of almost 50 days spent in Canada since getting her PR so far). We are planning for me to move to U.S. with her as well starting January 2019. However, we think we might want to come back to Canada in couple of years, when she would have been out of canada for 2.5 years and me for 2 years. At that point she'll have 6 months left that she could spend outside of Canada for next two years. She has family in U.S. and we can see her using 2-3 months of those 6 months for visiting her family. When she visits U.S. after moving back to Canada after staying out for 2.5 years already, would it cause her any problems in entering Canada? Will this timeline cause any problems with proving R.O. for PR renewal?

We will have her border entry/exit records obtained from CBP and have her flight tickets during all times she has visited me so far since she has been out for past six months. We expect her to have a job when we move back in two years' time. Can our PR renewal be denied for cutting it too close? Has anyone seen cases where someone was denied PR renewal even thought they met R.O. but very closely (exceeding R.O. by only 3 months)?

What other evidence we can collect preemptively to avoid any issues when traveling in future after returning to Canada in two years from now?

Inviting @dpenabill @canuck78 @Rob_TO @Mthornt @aj355 @shannon388 @Alex54321 @Alurra71 to answer. Thanks in advance.

 

[mastersboy]

Inviting @paul2587 @keesio to share their views. Thanks!

 

[zardoz]

My wife and I have lived together in Canada as graduate students from August 2015 to August 2017. Up on graduating we got PGWPs and started working. We got our PRs and landed in May 2018. However, my wife had to move back to U.S. in June 2018 (after a month and a half of living in Canada as a PR). She has been iving in the U.S. since and visits me often (may be 10 days of visits since June 2018, so total of almost 50 days spent in Canada since getting her PR so far). We are planning for me to move to U.S. with her as well starting January 2019. However, we think we might want to come back to Canada in couple of years, when she would have been out of canada for 2.5 years and me for 2 years. At that point she'll have 6 months left that she could spend outside of Canada for next two years. She has family in U.S. and we can see her using 2-3 months of those 6 months for visiting her family. When she visits U.S. after moving back to Canada after staying out for 2.5 years already, would it cause her any problems in entering Canada? Will this timeline cause any problems with proving R.O. for PR renewal?

We will have her border entry/exit records obtained from CBP and have her flight tickets during all times she has visited me so far since she has been out for past six months. We expect her to have a job when we move back in two years' time. Can our PR renewal be denied for cutting it too close? Has anyone seen cases where someone was denied PR renewal even thought they met R.O. but very closely (exceeding R.O. by only 3 months)?

What other evidence we can collect preemptively to avoid any issues when traveling in future after returning to Canada in two years from now?

Inviting @dpenabill @canuck78 @Rob_TO @Mthornt @aj355 @shannon388 @Alex54321 @Alurra71 to answer. Thanks in advance.

The rules are very simple. If you are outside Canada for more than 1095 days, as a Permanent Resident, in the immediately preceding 1825 days, AND meet none of the published exemptions, you will be in breach of the Residency Obligation, and subject to reporting for inadmissibility.

The responsibility for proving that you meet the RO is yours. IRCC do not have to prove that you don't.
There is a IRCC designed record keeping sheet that I will link to, as soon as I find it.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility/record-trips-outside-canada.html

 

[paul2587]

Inviting @paul2587 @keesio to share their views. Thanks!

If by "problems" you mean, will she be denied entry, then no. As long as she has PR status that has not been revoked, she will be allowed to enter Canada even if she is flagged by CBSA for her RO. You are a permanent resident until that status is formally taken away and until that time, you have the right to enter Canada.

As far as if you're asking whether she'll have problems other than being denied entry, that is very difficult to say. As zardoz implied, the rules are relatively black and white. If you/her spend that long outside of Canada, there's a chance you'll be asked some RO questions when re-entering. PR renewal will not be denied if you can prove your presence in Canada, but the renewal might be substantially delayed while CIC examines your residency and you might be asked to provide additional documents to prove you meet the RO. You can read plenty of examples of this happening to others on here and the documents they were asked to provide. It varies and can literally include everything from taxes and entry/exit records to old bank and credit card statements.

Based on the details you provided, cutting it that close and having so many absences for so much time is going to naturally raise questions. For example, I am married to a Canadian citizen, I've got NEXUS and I spent the majority of my 5 years as a PR physically in Canada and I still was questioned about whether I've maintained my RO on occasion when re-entering from the U.S., especially as my PR card was closer to expiring. You should keep precise records of every single entry and exit, including day trips to the U.S., and do not be surprised if you get questions when re-entering Canada toward the end of the 5 year mark and requests for additional documents from CIC and a longer process when you renew your PR and/or apply for citizenship.

 

[mastersboy]

If by "problems" you mean, will she be denied entry, then no. As long as she has PR status that has not been revoked, she will be allowed to enter Canada even if she is flagged by CBSA for her RO. You are a permanent resident until that status is formally taken away and until that time, you have the right to enter Canada.

As far as if you're asking whether she'll have problems other than being denied entry, that is very difficult to say. As zardoz implied, the rules are relatively black and white. If you/her spend that long outside of Canada, there's a chance you'll be asked some RO questions when re-entering. PR renewal will not be denied if you can prove your presence in Canada, but the renewal might be substantially delayed while CIC examines your residency and you might be asked to provide additional documents to prove you meet the RO. You can read plenty of examples of this happening to others on here and the documents they were asked to provide. It varies and can literally include everything from taxes and entry/exit records to old bank and credit card statements.

Based on the details you provided, cutting it that close and having so many absences for so much time is going to naturally raise questions. For example, I am married to a Canadian citizen, I've got NEXUS and I spent the majority of my 5 years as a PR physically in Canada and I still was questioned about whether I've maintained my RO on occasion when re-entering from the U.S., especially as my PR card was closer to expiring. You should keep precise records of every single entry and exit, including day trips to the U.S., and do not be surprised if you get questions when re-entering Canada toward the end of the 5 year mark and requests for additional documents from CIC and a longer process when you renew your PR and/or apply for citizenship.

Thanks for the reply. By "problems" I meant being denied PR renewal even if meet the R.O. even though by only a few months (say 3 more months than required), like this person claims: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-card-renewal-interview-letter.520598/

He claims he had met R.O. and was still denied PR and removed.

Another question would be since I'll get a U.S. green card and move to the U.S. for two years, will our PR renewal be denied due to "lack of will to stay in Canada" even if we return back in time to satisfy the R.O.? Has that ever happened to anyone in your experience?

 

[paul2587]

Thanks for the reply. By "problems" I meant being denied PR renewal even if meet the R.O. even though by only a few months (say 3 more months than required), like this person claims: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-card-renewal-interview-letter.520598/

He claims he had met R.O. and was still denied PR and removed.

Another question would be since I'll get a U.S. green card and move to the U.S. for two years, will our PR renewal be denied due to "lack of will to stay in Canada" even if we return back in time to satisfy the R.O.? Has that ever happened to anyone in your experience?

So, PR renewal is not always an objective thing. I think that goes for just about all immigration with every country. Injustices do happen, but take unverified stories on here with a grain of salt.

I think your U.S. status matters more for citizenship than for PR renewal but anything can change. Under the old system that Harper implemented a few years ago towards the end of his time in office, you had to have an intent to continue to reside in Canada to get citizenship so in your case if you applied for a U.S. green card and resided in the U.S. after receiving your Canadian PR, that could raise some red flags. This requirement has been removed under Trudeau but it's impossible to say whether additional suspicion would be raised or whether scrutiny would be greater under your circumstances. And if you don't plan on applying for renewal for a few years, it's entirely possible that the rules will be different by the time you're in this situation. There's a federal election coming up and if Canada goes back to a conservative government, it's possible several requirements could change again whether you're applying for PR renewal or citizenship.

You are looking for some degree of certainty about a hypothetical scenario that is years into the future. No one here, not even the most experienced immigration lawyer in Canada, can tell you what level or amount of scrutiny you'll receive or what CIC's reaction will be. If you follow all of the rules and are in Canada for two years during the five year PR period, if you can prove it to CIC's satisfaction and if the rules don't change by the time you are renewing, then you should be fine. You will likely attract added attention and you can expect that you'll get questioned occasionally when you re-enter Canada. You can expect that CIC will ask you for additional information/documents and that the entire process will take longer when you apply for renewal, so plan ahead, keep excellent records, and apply for renewal 6 months in advance.

 

[mastersboy]

So, PR renewal is not always an objective thing. I think that goes for just about all immigration with every country. Injustices do happen, but take unverified stories on here with a grain of salt.

I think your U.S. status matters more for citizenship than for PR renewal but anything can change. Under the old system that Harper implemented a few years ago towards the end of his time in office, you had to have an intent to continue to reside in Canada to get citizenship so in your case if you applied for a U.S. green card and resided in the U.S. after receiving your Canadian PR, that could raise some red flags. This requirement has been removed under Trudeau but it's impossible to say whether additional suspicion would be raised or whether scrutiny would be greater under your circumstances. And if you don't plan on applying for renewal for a few years, it's entirely possible that the rules will be different by the time you're in this situation. There's a federal election coming up and if Canada goes back to a conservative government, it's possible several requirements could change again whether you're applying for PR renewal or citizenship.

So if I renounce my U.S. PR voluntarily on coming back to Canada would it have similar impact on my PR renewal application as it would on citizenship application? If not, I can wait several years to apply for citizenship in order to sufficiently prove my intent to reside in Canada.

 

[paul2587]

So if I renounce my U.S. PR voluntarily on coming back to Canada would it have similar impact on my PR renewal application as it would on citizenship application? If not, I can wait several years to apply for citizenship in order to sufficiently prove my intent to reside in Canada.

Difficult to say or predict. Technically, you being a U.S. green card holder and spending the majority of your Canadian PR time there should have no effect on your PR renewal based on the rules as they are at present. It will almost definitely lead to additional processing and questioning. You have to be honest on your PR renewal; you will need to list every single absence from Canada and every job you've had over the previous 5 years. They will also check to see whether you've filed taxes in Canada or not and they have several other methods for determining your residency, but if all of that fails to satisfy them, they will ask you for additional documentation, such as your extra passport pages, banking records, rental/mortgage history and agreements, etc., but unless there is another rule change in the next few years (which is possible, given that we've had major overhauls of the PR/citizenship system twice over the last 5 years), you should still be able to renew as long as you are honest and you legitimately satisfy all of the requirements and can prove it.

 

[dpenabill]

There is not much to offer here pragmatically beyond the straight-forward and well-taken observations posted by @zardoz above.

The queries here are deeply entangled in a complex hypothetical rife with highly variable contingencies and, essentially, ask for personal advice. Notwithstanding the profuse flow of advice offered in this forum, this forum IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE VENUE FOR OBTAINING OR GIVING PERSONAL ADVICE . . . excepting straight-forward propositions explaining a direct relationship between known rules and definite facts. (The post by @zardoz is a good example of what is informative and appropriate in this regard.)

Sure, the difference between information and analysis, versus advice, is not always a bright line. Those of us who are conscientious do the best we can.

And, it can be helpful to restate some more likely hypotheticals or conditionals in the form of IF X, then Y (if a PR is outside Canada more than 1095 days during the first five years after landing, then the PR is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation; if a PR is in breach of the PR RO, then there is a risk of losing PR status; and so on).

One of my more common ones is "if the PR is cutting-it-close, then there are RISKS."

But trying to unravel the numerous possibilities when there are multiple variables many of which are contingent on other variables and other contingencies, even in a general sense, is far more likely to confuse and distract, if not outright mislead, way more than it is likely to illuminate much (if anything) beyond a straight-forward description of what the rules are and how, in a general sense, certain facts or circumstances can affect the way things go.

In particular, the PR Residency Obligation is simply a 2/5 rule and as such it is rather generous so that it allows individual PRs a great deal of flexibility and latitude. It allows the individual PR to map and navigate his or her course. Trying to formulate complex plans to map and navigate deliberately cutting-it-close tends to be a fools errand.

In fact, among the more common mistakes made by scores of PRs is trying to take advantage of how liberal the PR RO is without recognizing the many risks and pitfalls when their plans overtly embrace cutting-it-close. The risks and pitfalls have been discussed and illuminated extensively throughout these topics about keeping PR status. And there are more than a few tales of woe told here illustrating the risks and pitfalls.

None of this is meant to diminish the analysis offered by @paul2587 above, who takes a fair shot at offering some insight into the proposed scenario. But, it is to note the inherent variability and emphasize some of @paul2587's caveats, since yes, for sure, given the highly contingent scenario posed, much is, as @paul2587 said, "Difficult to say or predict."

The rule, however, is simple: it is a 2/5 rule.

And, it is worth remembering that how the rule is applied in particular cases often takes into consideration the purpose of the grant of PR, which is also fairly simple: so that the individual can come and settle PERMANENTLY in Canada.

And how any individual goes about balancing his or her own circumstances and priorities and commitments in approaching this is a VERY PERSONAL DECISION. Including how much risk the individual will take.