Urgent Help Request: PR Online Renewal - Time Spent Outside of Canada, Cannot Enter Same-Day Trip

[ccaallvviinn]

Hello gurus,

I am currently renewing my PR card through the PR Portal online application. I have quite some same-day trips to the US, which, in my understanding, should be reported. However, the table does not allow same-day entry and returns an error message.

What should I do? Two options come to mind, and really appreciate your comments / guidance here:

1. I noticed that, in the documents upload section, there is a "supplementary travel log" in the drop-down. May I just report all of the non-same-day trip in the IMM5444 online table AND report all the same-day trips in this "supplementary travel log" location by uploading a travel log document that only has all of the same-day trips?
   • If this would work, should I use the physical presence calculator (https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do) to generate the document? OR, can I just use my personal travel log, created in a similar fashion? The official physical presence calculator appears to be designed for citizenship application though.
2. If the approach mentioned in #1 is not recommended,
   • Does it mean that I will have to file a paper application?
   • In the paper application package, should I use the official physical presence calculator or my personal travel journal is good?

Thank you everyone! This is a little urgent for me, as I just realized such a glitch in the PR Portal online system....

 

[Besram]

Hello gurus,

I am currently renewing my PR card through the PR Portal online application. I have quite some same-day trips to the US, which, in my understanding, should be reported. However, the table does not allow same-day entry and returns an error message.

What should I do? Two options come to mind, and really appreciate your comments / guidance here:

1. I noticed that, in the documents upload section, there is a "supplementary travel log" in the drop-down. May I just report all of the non-same-day trip in the IMM5444 online table AND report all the same-day trips in this "supplementary travel log" location by uploading a travel log document that only has all of the same-day trips?
   • If this would work, should I use the physical presence calculator (https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do) to generate the document? OR, can I just use my personal travel log, created in a similar fashion? The official physical presence calculator appears to be designed for citizenship application though.
2. If the approach mentioned in #1 is not recommended,
   • Does it mean that I will have to file a paper application?
   • In the paper application package, should I use the official physical presence calculator or my personal travel journal is good?

Thank you everyone! This is a little urgent for me, as I just realized such a glitch in the PR Portal online system....

If you leave and enter Canada on the same day, it does not count as being outside of Canada for the purpose of calculating your compliance with the residency obligation.

This is because it counts as being in Canada for the entire day even if you actually only spend part of the day in Canada, however short that may be.

 

[ccaallvviinn]

If you leave and enter Canada on the same day, it does not count as being outside of Canada for the purpose of calculating your compliance with the residency obligation.

This is because it counts as being in Canada for the entire day even if you actually only spend part of the day in Canada, however short that may be.

Thank you for the comments! Yes, I am aware that a same-day trip does not count as a day outside of Canada from a RO compliance standpoint. The issue is that I believe we need to report the same-day trips for the Time Spent Outside of Canada, even though it has zero impact, when renewing the PR Card. The system glitch in the PR Portal is that it does not allow users to enter the same date in the FROM and TO space in the table as part of the online digital IMM5444 form. So, I am wondering if it is a sound practice to upload a copy of my travel journal (with all the same-day trips) in the Supporting Documents section in the PR Portal, along with a letter of explanation? Or, do I have to pursue paper application?

 

[armoured]

Thank you for the comments! Yes, I am aware that a same-day trip does not count as a day outside of Canada from a RO compliance standpoint. The issue is that I believe we need to report the same-day trips for the Time Spent Outside of Canada, even though it has zero impact, when renewing the PR Card. The system glitch in the PR Portal is that it does not allow users to enter the same date in the FROM and TO space in the table as part of the online digital IMM5444 form. So, I am wondering if it is a sound practice to upload a copy of my travel journal (with all the same-day trips) in the Supporting Documents section in the PR Portal, along with a letter of explanation? Or, do I have to pursue paper application?

I would do as you suggest, travel journal or other that shows all.

(I suggest all entries and exits, in order, because I recently got a CBSA ATIP and they literally have all entries and exits in a list . I reckon doing it that way will make it easier for IRCC officers checking, but just an educated guess.)

 

[Ponga]

I would do as you suggest, travel journal or other that shows all.

(I suggest all entries and exits, in order, because I recently got a CBSA ATIP and they literally have all entries and exits in a list . I reckon doing it that way will make it easier for IRCC officers checking, but just an educated guess.)

Interesting. Does it actually show exits from Canada, or just entries into a different country...which is, in essence, a de Facto exit. Last I had seen was that exits are not tracked.

Collecting entry and exit data

When you arrive in Canada, a CBSA officer collects your biographic information as part of the primary inspection process. Canada also collects exit information in the land and air modes.


When you travel to the United States (US) at a land border crossing, Canada receives your biographic entry information from US authorities. We use this information to create your Canadian exit record.

 

[armoured]

Interesting. Does it actually show exits from Canada, or just entries into a different country...which is, in essence, a de Facto exit. Last I had seen was that exits are not tracked.

I do not know where you got the text you quoted - but my understanding is that they track all AIR-mode exits (via Transport ministry requirements upon airlines in force for at least a couple years now) and LAND-mode via USA (as per text above).

At any rate, the thing we got from CBSA is set up with the following columns (not exact titles, just simplifying):
Passage Date / Passage Time (incl TZ) / Surname / Given Name / DoB / Gender / Citizenship / Country of Citizenship / Border office name / Province / Document Type / Document Number / Document country of issuance / Direction (i.e. Entry/Exit) / Immigration Referral (secondary) / Customs Referral / Cash referral (I guess this means to pay customs taxes/duties owing).

Our records matched with CBSA almost exactly, but CBSA did not have one exit recorded. (No idea why that one was missed). We had no land exits.

-I haven't checked the times i.e. I presume this means passport control for entry, ??? for exit. (Exit times all end with :00 seconds , and the times are far closer to scheduled flight departures than actual, so I presume it's scheduled departure unless overridden for some serious reason). Times also all had correct time zone (as published, I don't know what they record in their database).
-All cases where flights arrived after midnight were recorded as such, i.e. I'm fairly sure this is actual passport control, NOT scheduled arrival time and not landing time (no benefit for flights that arrived late / past midnight). [We had no departure flights that were near or after midnight, so can't say how they handle those].
-If a PR entering, it shows PR card # as document and Canada as issuer (logically enough). Citizenship was recorded accurately for both PR /passport uses (but not a complicated case, only one citizenship, not changed) - passport used to board departure plane was I guess used.
-It did record Secondary inspection and customs correctly for all cases we had (fortunately few).

We got this in advance prep for a citizenship app - basically just to be sure no surprises about data recorded and how it would match (a lot of travel). I'm not really worried about the missing exit. Note, we had no land exits.

The CBSA info was chronological, oldest to newest, all in one order. That's why my point above that if I was doing a table for them, I'd do the same - by date, one entry or exit per row, etc. That way an officer checking it could put the tables together and just compare row by row.

 

[Ponga]

I do not know where you got the text you quoted - but my understanding is that they track all AIR-mode exits (via Transport ministry requirements upon airlines in force for at least a couple years now) and LAND-mode via USA (as per text above).
[/QUOTE}
From here: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/eedcu-cudes-eng.html

Our records matched with CBSA almost exactly, but CBSA did not have one exit recorded. (No idea why that one was missed). We had no land exits.

That's odd and may indicate that CBSA does not always get flight data for persons leaving Canada.

How long did it take to get your travel history after submitting the ATIP request?

 

[armoured]

That's odd and may indicate that CBSA does not always get flight data for persons leaving Canada.

How long did it take to get your travel history after submitting the ATIP request?

Well, since they didn't have one (and would not have been possible to have two entries without an exit), clearly they don't always get them. Call it glitches or a screw up, there it is.

It's supposed to take 30 days, took about 60 (we did get the letter at about 30 days saying "we're allowed to take 30 days more if we're busy, so ... we're busy.")

That said, not complaining, was good service overall.

 

[ccaallvviinn]

I would do as you suggest, travel journal or other that shows all.

(I suggest all entries and exits, in order, because I recently got a CBSA ATIP and they literally have all entries and exits in a list . I reckon doing it that way will make it easier for IRCC officers checking, but just an educated guess.)

Thank you for sharing your POV and expertise!

Just to provide an update for the forum's record here: I was able to call IRCC earlier today. The agent confirmed that in the PR card renewal through the PR Portal online application, the same-day trips are not required to be entered into the table, as the trip is not considered time outside of Canada (so, the table is designed not to allow such entries). To put ourselves on the safe side, I asked if it would be a good practice to still provide the full travel journal (including the same-days trips) through the supplementary travel log under the document upload section, the agent said yes. So, I guess this is where the IRCC is not very consistent, in terms of the travel history report in the PR card renewal application vs. citizenship application. Just to share with everyone for an option, when dealing with the PR Portal. I will apply for citizenship later this year - hopefully, the online citizenship system has no such glitches...

 

[armoured]

To put ourselves on the safe side, I asked if it would be a good practice to still provide the full travel journal (including the same-days trips) through the supplementary travel log under the document upload section, the agent said yes.

I'll give another reason why would be better to include this as well - harking back to my CBSA report, we can't say the records IRCC has access to are always 100% accurate. And if there's a discrepancy that looks ambiguous to them, well, that makes things harder.

And for people who do a lot of daytrips, the chances of some misunderstanding/discrepancies are higher - of course.

Which leaves: if you have good records and provide it, it seems to me less likely they're going to cause an issue. Compared to: you have 150 entries but you leave 75 out because they're just day trips, that's going to look like a significant discrepancy (even if not substantive because day trips).