Triple Citizienship / Passports??

[paolo.416]

Hi, I hope somebody can help me by answering my questions. I was born in Canada and have a Canadian & Ecuadorian passport, and my wife is Ecuadorian and we are currently living in Ecuador. My mother was born in Canada and is in the process of obtaining her Italian passport/citizenship (my grandparents are Italian). Just a few weeks ago we found out that we are going to have a baby, so we started to think about our baby and what would be best for our son/daughter.

Is it possible for our baby to have 3 passports? to be born in Ecuador, Canadian (automatically because I am Canadian) and Italian (my mother). I am guessing that once my mother obtains her Italian passport, in order for my son/daughter to get it, i would have to as well. The only problem, if one or all of the countries do not allow triple citizenship, is that I would have to renounce my Ecuadorian citizenship in order to get the Italian citizenship.

One last question, before knowing about the pregnancy, my wife and I were planning to visit my family in Canada for a few months. If my wife only has a tourist visa and we decide to stay in Canada to give birth, would my wife have any type of healthcare coverage considering that I am a Canadian citizen? Obviously I would have to be a resident for 3 months to receive my health card. We are not planning to give birth there, I was thinking of that option. If she is not covered, any idea how much a standard birth would cost?

Thank-you

 

[alphazip]

There is no problem in Canada or Italy with having multiple citizenships. As to Ecuador, I have read conflicting information. Some sources state that Ecuador does not allow dual/multiple citizenships, others state that it does. In any case, you can likely maintain non-Ecuadorian citizenships if you are *born" into them (i.e. by birth or inheritance, not naturalization).

As to where to have the baby so he/she will have 3 citizenships, the only country that seems to put a limit on citizenship by descent is Canada. If you were to have the child outside Canada, the child would be Canadian, but if he/she then grew up to also have a child outside of Canada, that child (your grandchild) would NOT be Canadian. So, the best choice would be to have the child in Canada, remembering to register the birth in both the Ecuadorian & Italian consulates. However, if that isn't feasible for economic or other reasons, the child WILL have all 3 citizenships no matter where in the world he/she is born.

If a Canadian citizen moves to some places in Canada (e.g. Nova Scotia), there is no waiting period for provincial insurance coverage. However, coverage is not transferable to that person's non-resident spouse. To get coverage, the spouse would not have to be a citizen, but would have to be a legal resident.

As to birth costs, I found this (for 2011): http://en.allexperts.com/q/Canada-Government-Information-351/2011/5/f/Foreigner-desiring-give-Birth.htm

 

[paolo.416]

Thank-you Alphazip for your quick and well explained response!

I am guessing that dual citizenship is allowed in Ecuador because I have it... and so does my brother and father. If a country accepts dual citizenship, does that mean they also accept multiple/various? From what I have read, it means the same thing, right? A friend of mine told me that she met someone who had a US, Canadian and Ecuadorian passport.

Regarding the limit on citizenship by descent, if my son/daughter is born outside of Canada, are there any exceptions if his/her child is born outside of Canada? I find it hard to believe that the Canadian government would reject my grandchild's request to be a Canadian citizen.

Thanks for the link, we're going to give birth here...its too expensive in Canada without health insurance.

 

[screech339]

Thank-you Alphazip for your quick and well explained response!

I am guessing that dual citizenship is allowed in Ecuador because I have it... and so does my brother and father. If a country accepts dual citizenship, does that mean they also accept multiple/various? From what I have read, it means the same thing, right? A friend of mine told me that she met someone who had a US, Canadian and Ecuadorian passport.

Regarding the limit on citizenship by descent, if my son/daughter is born outside of Canada, are there any exceptions if his/her child is born outside of Canada? I find it hard to believe that the Canadian government would reject my grandchild's request to be a Canadian citizen.

Thanks for the link, we're going to give birth here...its too expensive in Canada without health insurance.

There is no exception for your canadian by descent child to pass on canadian citizenship to his/her child. The law was changed to stop the abuse of passing of Canadian citizenship for infinity for generations all because their one ancestor generations ago was a Canadian at one point.

If you want your grandchild to be Canadian, you got 2 choices. Have your child have the baby in Canada or your child sponsor your grandchild for PR. The second choice means your child would have to prove that he/she intend to move permanently back to Canada. Once the grandchild have PR, he/she can apply for Canadian citizenship without any residency requirements.

What you are asking for is the kind of abuse of passing citizenship. Your grandchild and his/her future children will then be Canadian without stepping foot in Canada. The grandchild and future child will have no incentive to establish any Canadian ties since they have canadian citizenship. By removing this abuse, the change forces people to actually establish ties to Canada if they want future generations to have Canadian citizenship.

If your child has no intentions of moving back to Canada and settle, why is it important that your grandchild have Canadian citizenship?

Remember, Canadian citizenship is a privilege to earn, not a right. Every person born in Canada, and those who applies for Canadian citizenship earn the privilege of obtaining Canadian citizenship.

Screech339

 

[jes_ON]

Regarding the limit on citizenship by descent, if my son/daughter is born outside of Canada, are there any exceptions if his/her child is born outside of Canada? I find it hard to believe that the Canadian government would reject my grandchild's request to be a Canadian citizen.

The grandchild would not be able to "inherit" citizenship through your child if your child were born outside Canada. But they would still be able to become citizens through other means. Say your child marries a Canadian-born citizen, the grandchild could inherit citizenship through the spouse. Or the grandchild could be born in Canada. Or other routes (e.g. PR to Citizenship).

 

[alphazip]

I am guessing that dual citizenship is allowed in Ecuador because I have it... and so does my brother and father. If a country accepts dual citizenship, does that mean they also accept multiple/various? From what I have read, it means the same thing, right? A friend of mine told me that she met someone who had a US, Canadian and Ecuadorian passport.

Yes, but as I said, I'm sure dual citizenship IS allowed in Ecuador if a person is BORN into the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) citizenship. What I'm not sure about is a case where a person becomes a NATURALIZED citizen of another country. Some sites state that Ecuador does not allow dual citizenship in that situation. See: http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_ECUADOR.html However, others suggest that as of the 1998 constitution, dual citizenship IS allowed. So, I just don't know. Check with the Ecuadorian government.

If a country allows dual citizenship, then they allow multiple citizenships.

Regarding the limit on citizenship by descent, if my son/daughter is born outside of Canada, are there any exceptions if his/her child is born outside of Canada? I find it hard to believe that the Canadian government would reject my grandchild's request to be a Canadian citizen.

If your child is born outside of Canada, then any child he or she later has must be born in Canada to have Canadian citizenship...or, as jes_ON suggested, the child's other parent must be a natural-born or naturalized Canadian. Unlike Italian citizenship, which descends forever to descendants born anywhere, Canadian citizenship ends after the first generation born outside of Canada.

 

[alphazip]

I find it hard to believe that the Canadian government would reject my grandchild's request to be a Canadian citizen.

Maybe this will convince you: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=c3a5560d-5170-4d4a-a318-a8675e759171

 

[screech339]

Maybe this will convince you: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=c3a5560d-5170-4d4a-a318-a8675e759171

The link provided doesn't explain why the citizenship law was changed. It only tells a story of a child who couldn't get canadian citizenship because her father was Canadian by descent. In the end, the child wasn't really stateless as the child can get other citizenship by descent through other means. Had the child been truly stateless, proven that no other citizenship cannot legally be acquired, Canada would have provided travel document to allow the child to enter Canada. Once in Canada can qualify for citizenship after 3 years.

Not sure what you are trying to convince him of, other than to tell him to tell his adult child to have his grandchild in Canada if he wants his grandchild to be Canadian. In his case, his grandchild will not be stateless. He/she will be American citizen.

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/politics/inside-politics-blog/2011/01/evacuation-weve-been-down-this-road-before---sort-of.html

The link above would explain why the Canadian citizenship law was changed. A lot of Lebanese Canadians demanded Canada pull them out at taxpayers expense at the start of 2006 Israel/Lebanon war. The vast majority of these people only gotten Canadian citizenship due to generational passing of Canadian citizenship. Many of them never stepped foot in Canada their entire lives. After the war was over, the majority, if not all, went back to Lebanon after the war was over. It is examples like this that shows how easily the passing of citizenship can be abused. The law was changed to stop the abuse.

Screech339

 

[alphazip]

What the article demonstrates is that the Canadian government will not give citizenship to someone born outside Canada to a Canadian citizen parent, if the parent is a citizen by descent. I included the OP's quote stating that he found it hard to believe that such a thing could happen to his hypothetical grandchild. Yes, in this case (the linked article) the child was temporarily left stateless, until a claim of Irish citizenship by descent could be made, but that's not the main point, which is that Canadian citizenship only extends to one generation born abroad. You know that and I know that...the OP apparently does not.

 

[screech339]

What the article demonstrates is that the Canadian government will not give citizenship to someone born outside Canada to a Canadian citizen parent, if the parent is a citizen by descent. I included the OP's quote stating that he found it hard to believe that such a thing could happen to his hypothetical grandchild. Yes, in this case (the linked article) the child was temporarily left stateless, until a claim of Irish citizenship by descent could be made, but that's not the main point, which is that Canadian citizenship only extends to one generation born abroad. You know that and I know that...the OP apparently does not.

If your intent is to show that children of Canadian by Descent parent will not get Canadian citizenship abroad, the article prove that point relating to his quote "Regarding the limit on citizenship by descent, if my son/daughter is born outside of Canada, are there any exceptions if his/her child is born outside of Canada?"

I see your point. I was under the impression the OP's knew of the limitations and wants his grandchild to have Canadian citizenship because he is Canadian as well.

Technically, the child was never temporarily stateless. The child has Irish citizenship by law of descent through the father's naturalized Canadian Irish father (child's grandfather). Either you are stateless or you are not.

If I was in China and had a child there (me being Canada born), and never did any paperwork for Canadian citizenship by descent, doesn't mean my child was stateless. The child would not have Chinese citizenship but does have Canadian citizenship by law, even though I never bothered with paperwork. My child was still technically never stateless. My child had Canadian citizenship all along. Just like the child in the article, the child had Irish citizenship all along.

 

[alphazip]

Technically, the child was never temporarily stateless. The child has Irish citizenship by law of descent through the father's naturalized Canadian Irish father (child's grandfather). Either you are stateless or you are not.

No, technically, the child was stateless. While the child of an Irish citizen born in Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, the grandchild of an Irish-born citizen is not. I refer you here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

"If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.

If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation."

So, your analogy about your having a child in China and the child being automatically a Canadian citizen from birth is not appropriate.

 

[screech339]

No, technically, the child was stateless. While the child of an Irish citizen born in Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, the grandchild of an Irish-born citizen is not. I refer you here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

"If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.

If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation."

So, your analogy about your having a child in China and the child being automatically a Canadian citizen from birth is not appropriate.

I can see your point. But the child is still not stateless because the grandfather did registered the father in foreign birth registration with Ireland. The condition was that the grandfather had to registered foreign birth of the father to Ireland. Since the grandfather did that, there is no MAY get it. The child has Irish citizenship. Not may get citizenship because the grandfather registered the foreign birth. The MAY get citizenship is on a condition that foreign birth registration was done. In this case, if the grandfather didn't do that, then the child would be actually be stateless.

The way you seem to think is this:

Irish government sees that the grandfather registered the father in foreign registration. Okay we get back to you to decide if we want to grant your child Irish citizenship or not. We may or may not grant citizenship. okay we made a decision. We didn't like the fact that your grandfather had the father outside Ireland so we don't want to give your daughter citizenship. Oh well tough luck. This would be where the "MAY" get citizenship comes into play. Here the child was actually "temporary stateless" awaiting decision. But that is not how the law is written. The law is written as this. The child has Irish citizenship because the grandfather registered the father in foreign birth to Irish government.

Why is my example with my child be inappropriate? I am just illustrating a point that you are either stateless or you are not. Not temporary stateless. That is like you are temporary pregnant. You are either pregnant or you are not.

No, technically, the child was stateless.

Every person is not stateless unless proven otherwise. The only way the child was actually stateless is if the child is proven to hold no other legal citizenship at all. Since they didn't prove that the child cannot hold any other citizenship, (the child has Irish citizenship) the child was never stateless. Similar to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". You are not stateless until proven otherwise.

China doesn't say the child is stateless, they only say the child does not hold Chinese citizenship. They will assume like most countries that don't have citizenship by birth, the child has nationality of parents. So the onus is on the parents to prove that the their child is, in fact, stateless.

What is interesting is that Canada is NOT a signatory to convention relating to status of stateless person but to convention on the reduction of statelessness. Two difference set of rules regarding stateless. Canada can still have a stateless person living walking around Canada but can help reduce FUTURE statelessness as in the case of the child in the article. If the child is PROVEN to be stateless, then Canada would step in and give travel document to allow the stateless child to enter and get opportunity to acquire canadian citizenship after 3 years (soon 4 years). The child would actually be stateless living in Canada until citizenship is acquired. Canada is not obligated to give Canadian citizenship to any stateless people, only give them opportunity to get citizenship. Had Canada been a signatory to convention of status of stateless person, then Canada would have been obligated to grant Canadian citizenship to the stateless child.

Screech339

 

[alphazip]

The fact is that the child had no AUTOMATIC right to ANY citizenship. Therefore, the child was stateless UNTIL her birth was registered in Ireland. At that point, and not before, she became a citizen of a country. She was not a citizen from birth, but only from the time of registration. Your example was of the child (born abroad in the 1st generation) of a Canadian who has an automatic right to citizenship under Canadian law from the moment of birth. That's not the situation we had here. In this situation, the father was a Canadian citizen, and naturally looked to Canada first when trying to find a citizenship for his child. Finding that path blocked (as was the Chinese path), he had to look farther afield and luckily found an ancestral country whose citizenship laws encompassed grandchildren.

I'm sorry, but I also don't agree with your premise that a person cannot be temporarily stateless. If a person is stateless, then later acquires a citizenship (say for example, Canada accepts the person as a refugee and they later become a Canadian citizen), then that person was stateless, then became not stateless, i.e. they were temporarily stateless.

It seems that you feel strongly that the 2009 changes to the Citizenship Act that limited citizenship to the 1st citizenship born abroad were great, based on the actions of Canadian citizens in Lebanon (most of whom were not citizens by descent)*. My purpose is not to make a political statement, but simply to inform the OP that there is no chance (based on the Chandlers' experience) that citizenship will be granted to a hypothetical grandchild born abroad in the 2nd generation.

* Wikipedia: "The term 'Canadians of convenience' was popularized by Canadian politician Garth Turner in 2006 in conjunction with the evacuation of Canadian citizens from Lebanon during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. It refers to people with multiple citizenship who immigrated to Canada, met the residency requirement to obtain citizenship, obtained Canadian citizenship, and moved back to their original home country while maintaining their Canadian citizenship, with those who support the term claiming they do so as a safety net."

 

[screech339]

The fact is that the child had no AUTOMATIC right to ANY citizenship. Therefore, the child was stateless UNTIL her birth was registered in Ireland. At that point, and not before, she became a citizen of a country. She was not a citizen from birth, but only from the time of registration. Your example was of the child (born abroad in the 1st generation) of a Canadian who has an automatic right to citizenship under Canadian law from the moment of birth. That's not the situation we had here. In this situation, the father was a Canadian citizen, and naturally looked to Canada first when trying to find a citizenship for his child. Finding that path blocked (as was the Chinese path), he had to look farther afield and luckily found an ancestral country whose citizenship laws encompassed grandchildren.

I'm sorry, but I also don't agree with your premise that a person cannot be temporarily stateless. If a person is stateless, then later acquires a citizenship (say for example, Canada accepts the person as a refugee and they later become a Canadian citizen), then that person was stateless, then became not stateless, i.e. they were temporarily stateless.

It seems that you feel strongly that the 2009 changes to the Citizenship Act that limited citizenship to the 1st citizenship born abroad were great, based on the actions of Canadian citizens in Lebanon (most of whom were not citizens by descent)*. My purpose is not to make a political statement, but simply to inform the OP that there is no chance (based on the Chandlers' experience) that citizenship will be granted to a hypothetical grandchild born abroad in the 2nd generation.

* Wikipedia: "The term 'Canadians of convenience' was popularized by Canadian politician Garth Turner in 2006 in conjunction with the evacuation of Canadian citizens from Lebanon during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. It refers to people with multiple citizenship who immigrated to Canada, met the residency requirement to obtain citizenship, obtained Canadian citizenship, and moved back to their original home country while maintaining their Canadian citizenship, with those who support the term claiming they do so as a safety net."

Canadian of convenient can be made anyone who only came to Canada for the purpose of getting Citizenship and then leave using the citizenship as a back up only. Not just to the Lebanese Canadian as an example.

I never made it a political issue. I only pointed to the flaw in the previous citizenship law that can show not just the potential abuse of it but was being abused as illustrated by the example mentioned, was one example, at least made public.

The child has automatic right to her Irish citizenship once they start the paperwork. It is no difference for my child having automatic right to Canadian citizenship the moment the application is sent.

As for your example about stateless. The refugee is called a stateless refugee. Once the refugee acquires citizenship, he/she is no longer stateless. Was never temporary stateless. Has been stateless until citizenship is granted. How can you be temporary stateless when you are stateless with no other rights to other citizenship.

Again I still stand by the "you are not stateless until proven otherwise". You have to prove to government authorities that you cannot legally any citizenship, through all legal means including no automatic rights to acquire citizenship through all means.

 

[screech339]

Just a question to ask. If my child was born in China, does my child have automatic right to Canadian citizenship? Yes or No.

If you say Yes, then it is no difference from the child in the article. The child has automatic right to her Irish citizenship through her grandfather. The only time she would not have any automatic rights to her Irish citizenship is if the grandfather never registered her father in foreign birth registration to Ireland.

If you say No, then you are saying my child does not have any rights to her Canadian citizenship by law.

If a person is stateless, then later acquires a citizenship (say for example, Canada accepts the person as a refugee and they later become a Canadian citizen), then that person was stateless, then became not stateless, i.e. they were temporarily stateless.

The example you made, only mean to say that the person was stateless. as in "was a stateless person in the past". not temporarily stateless. We can argue over the terminology use of the word temporarily but I don't think the example you made is not correctly applied.