+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Should the presence calculator be treated as a travel history declaration?

DimT44

Hero Member
Apr 5, 2021
944
332
I hope the title is to the point. The situation is this: If you are away from Canada continuously for two years, and you were living in your home country during that time, but went on vacations to other places, is it okay if you listed those two years as a single absence in the presence calculator?

For example do you list:

Dec 2014 - Dec 2016 in Canada
Jan 2017 - Dec 2018 in USA
Jan 2019 - Present back in Canada

Or do you list:

Dec 2014 - Dec 2016 in Canada
Jan 2017 - June 2017 USA
July 2017 - August 2017 in Mexico
Sept 2017 - June 2018 in USA
July 2018 - August 2018 in Mexico
Sept 2018 - Dec 2018 in USA

Jan 2019 - Present back in Canada

I know it's probably less headache to just list everything, but this was already done and I'm trying to figure out if this will be considered misrepresentation.

Thanks!
 

akbardxb

Champion Member
Nov 18, 2013
1,244
464
Mississauga
LANDED..........
28-03-2014
I hope the title is to the point. The situation is this: If you are away from Canada continuously for two years, and you were living in your home country during that time, but went on vacations to other places, is it okay if you listed those two years as a single absence in the presence calculator?

For example do you list:

Dec 2014 - Dec 2016 in Canada
Jan 2017 - Dec 2018 in USA
Jan 2019 - Present back in Canada

Or do you list:

Dec 2014 - Dec 2016 in Canada
Jan 2017 - June 2017 USA
July 2017 - August 2017 in Mexico
Sept 2017 - June 2018 in USA
July 2018 - August 2018 in Mexico
Sept 2018 - Dec 2018 in USA

Jan 2019 - Present back in Canada

I know it's probably less headache to just list everything, but this was already done and I'm trying to figure out if this will be considered misrepresentation.

Thanks!
If I recall correctly, you are expected to list every single place that you have visited while outside Canada. for instance, we went back after completing our landing and while outside visited a number of places in Europe. We listed it as one absence with a start and end date, but all places visited without the specific dates for each country( driving through Central Europe). worked fine for us.
 

DimT44

Hero Member
Apr 5, 2021
944
332
If I recall correctly, you are expected to list every single place that you have visited while outside Canada. for instance, we went back after completing our landing and while outside visited a number of places in Europe. We listed it as one absence with a start and end date, but all places visited without the specific dates for each country( driving through Central Europe). worked fine for us.
Yeah that makes sense. I just also found that there's a note on the presence calculator that says:

"If you visited more than one country during the same absence, list the first country in 'Destination' and list the other countries in the 'Reason' field"

So would it be considered as serious issue, or misrepresentation, if the calculation wasn't done this way?
 

akbardxb

Champion Member
Nov 18, 2013
1,244
464
Mississauga
LANDED..........
28-03-2014
Yeah that makes sense. I just also found that there's a note on the presence calculator that says:

"If you visited more than one country during the same absence, list the first country in 'Destination' and list the other countries in the 'Reason' field"

So would it be considered as serious issue, or misrepresentation, if the calculation wasn't done this way?
It could be, when stamps on your PP are compared to the declared absences. I’m guessing Mexico would show up in the passport but not in your travel history. I would submit an updated presence calculator and say I missed including Mexico, but nothing else has changed On the dates.
Given that you were away for two years, you / they may want to check if you need a police clearance from Mexico as well.
 

snowrding1

Newbie
Feb 26, 2022
6
3
Hello I have a similar question.

I missed disclosing sub-trips during the same abscense when I renewed my PR some time ago. I'm now doing a citizenship application, and there is some overlap between what I had to include in the PR renewal with what I will include in the citizenship application. Will it cause me problems if now in the citizenship application I include those sub-trips?

PR renewal eligibility period 2012-2017 (Did not disclose sub-trips in 2017)
Citizenship application period 2017-2022 (Will disclose sub-trips for 2017)

Could IRCC consider this misrepresentation?

@armoured
 

snowrding1

Newbie
Feb 26, 2022
6
3
To be extra clear, I also did not disclose sub trips at all in the PR renewal not just for 2017. But 2017 is the one overlapping with the citizenship application where I could possibly now be contradicting myself.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,466
3,216
While misrepresentation by omission is a real thing, not all omissions, and not all misrepresentations, are equal.

Many inaccurate or incomplete disclosures of fact are merely due to a mistake or oversight, not misrepresentation. And not all misrepresentations are material. IRCC does not play gotcha-games so minor errors in fact will not, generally, cause much if any problem.

Failure to Fully Disclose Additionally Visited Countries Overall:

There is little or no indication that IRCC will allege an individual made a material misrepresentation based on the individual's failure to list or disclose countries the individual visited in addition to the primary destination during an absence from Canada.


Obviously, the best approach is to follow the instructions and disclose additional countries visited during an absence from Canada. And going forward, in making any further submissions to IRCC, the better approach is to do one's best to accurately and completely provide information. With some exceptions, this is true even if the individual has previously failed to fully disclose such information in previous submissions.

If an applicant has failed to previously disclose such information, NO NEED to panic, and actually not even much cause to worry. UNLESS the omission was a substantial one and is misleading or deceptive. For the vast majority of individuals in this situation, all the applicant needs to do is be prepared to acknowledge the oversight or mistake, and be prepared to correct the information if asked about it. As someone noted, for example, a processing agent might notice there is a passport entry for a country not disclosed in the physical presence calculation travel history and ask about that. NOT a big deal, not a problem, so long as it fell within a disclosed absence, the applicant acknowledges the oversight, and it does not otherwise appear intended to mislead or deceive.


Compromised Credibility versus Misrepresentation:

For omissions as to additional countries visited during an absence from Canada, already made in an application that has been submitted, again such omissions might be noticed, and this could influence a processing agent's perception of the applicant's credibility. Just as any mistakes can. How much so will of course be relative to the nature and extent of the discrepancy, and will be affected by the extent to which the rest of the applicant's information appears credible, or not.

Which leads back to whether the omission could trigger a perception of misrepresentation. As I noted, there is little indication such omissions would trigger misrepresentation allegations. BUT OF COURSE, if the nature and extent, the context, the manner of the omission, signals the applicant was overtly deceptive, deliberately trying to conceal the fact of having gone to a particular country, sure, of course, duh even, that could trigger a more severe assessment of the omission and perhaps even a formal allegation of misrepresentation. Nonetheless, generally, failing to list or disclose countries the individual visited in addition to the primary destination during an absence from Canada is not at all likely to be seen as misrepresentation.

The Longer Explanation:

In applying for citizenship the applicant is instructed to identify all countries visited during absences, and generally to do this by listing the additional countries visited during a particular absence (a period of time between the date of exit from Canada and next date of return to Canada), in addition to the primary destination country, in the "Reasons" box in the physical presence calculation. A mere list suffices, as in stating "also visited XX country, YY country, ZZ country."

A failure to do so is of course an omission. While omissions can constitute misrepresentation, not all omissions constitute a misrepresentation, and particularly not a "material" misrepresentation. We all make mistakes, including those rooted in an oversight. IRCC is very well familiar with this and does not penalize its clients or applicants for minor mistakes. Even more substantial mistakes generally will not be treated as misrepresentation, unless IRCC perceives the applicant intended to be deceptive or misleading.

Mistakes, including omissions, can affect IRCC's perception of the applicant's credibility. And credibility can be a huge factor in how things go. While honesty is of course the biggest element affecting an individual's credibility, such that a perception the applicant is at all evasive or deceptive can have a serious impact on how things go (even though the basis for that perception does not rise to the level of triggering an overt assessment of misrepresentation), credibility is basically about how much an individual can be relied upon to be an accurate and complete reporter of facts. Significant mistakes illustrate the individual might not be a reliable reporter of facts, since they have failed to accurately reports some facts.

If an applicant is perceived to not be a reliable reporter of facts, that is, the applicant has compromised credibility in the view of IRCC officials, that can have a negative impact on how the process goes, ranging from triggering non-routine processing (potentially including a referral to CBSA/NSSD for an investigation, which is not something the applicant will see noted in the version of GCMS notes disclosed in response to an ATIP request), to overt skepticism or suspicion of the applicant's other information.

But merely failing to disclose additional countries visited during absences from Canada generally is NOT likely to trigger a negative credibility perception of the applicant UNLESS there is cause for heightened concern. MOST, by far, will be OK, NO PROBLEM.

But sure, there are exceptions. I often say those for whom there is an exception generally know who they are. In the context of this topic, disclosure of additional countries visited in the presence calculation travel history, there are some fairly obvious examples:

-- NO problem implicated where the applicant --​
-- -- failed to list a country the applicant did a stop-over in while traveling to or from the primary destination​
-- -- failed to list visiting the Netherlands (or other nearby European) during a summer long absence primarily spent in France​
-- NOT likely to be a problem if the applicant --​
-- -- listed a country briefly visited and omitted the name of country where the individual spent most of the time while abroad during that absence; NOTE: the significance of this can vary and depend on other factors, as discussed in reference to potentially problematic scenarios​
-- Potential Problems, subject to variability depending on the particular facts and circumstances, where the applicant --​
-- -- omits a country in which there was an arrest or a criminal case involving the applicant (not a problem if the applicant otherwise appropriately disclosed relevant information about that in response to Prohibitions question in the application)​
-- -- a PR with protected person status omits visiting their home country; of course listing the home country as visited can also be problematic for a refugee-PR . . . this involves issues related to the cessation of status as well as misrepresentation, discussed in another topic​

These are just some examples illustrating the very wide range in potential significance. Again, for most, the failure to list additional countries visited is NO big deal . . . (still, of course, applicants should follow the instructions and list the additional countries, at least going forward) . . . but for some the failure to do so could be an issue. And, yeah, the latter will generally know who they are and why, notwithstanding their typical protests to the contrary.
 

akbardxb

Champion Member
Nov 18, 2013
1,244
464
Mississauga
LANDED..........
28-03-2014
To be extra clear, I also did not disclose sub trips at all in the PR renewal not just for 2017. But 2017 is the one overlapping with the citizenship application where I could possibly now be contradicting myself.
I would go with stating the facts as they have happened, because this is simpler to explain rather than trying to cover up the mistake, if it was indeed a genuine mistake. You could apply for citizenship, include the sub-trips, and the police clearance if required for that period. If called to question, you could claim oversight while renewing PR and hope for the best.

Potential problem area if your sub-trip(s) require police clearance. Could likely make this a non-routine processing. Scrutiny for citizenship is definitely more detailed as compared to PR renewal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: snowrding1

snowrding1

Newbie
Feb 26, 2022
6
3
I would go with stating the facts as they have happened, because this is simpler to explain rather than trying to cover up the mistake, if it was indeed a genuine mistake. You could apply for citizenship, include the sub-trips, and the police clearance if required for that period. If called to question, you could claim oversight while renewing PR and hope for the best.

Potential problem area if your sub-trip(s) require police clearance. Could likely make this a non-routine processing. Scrutiny for citizenship is definitely more detailed as compared to PR renewal.
Thanks a lot, @akbardxb! There was another post where I was discussing the problem originally before my initial reply here. To sum up, I got a good estimate of the visits and they were very short, a handful of days each. So they won't require a police clearance. Here's my most recent reply on that post:
Hello @armoured, @canuck78, and @dpenabill,

Thank you all so much for your efforts and contributions. Having this forum is a bless, and I'm grateful I was able to think aloud about this with you. Here's what I decided I will do:

I will be reporting the more accurate information on my citizenship application in the absences section, and I have prepared the rough estimate of my visit dates. I will use these estimates in case it becomes necessary later and to be prepared to acknowledge the oversight if for some reason there are questions from IRCC. But for the sake of simplicity I will not be sending an explanation letter, in part to avoid confusing people over there and drawing unnecessary attention to minor issues and blowing this out of proportion.

I've double checked the presence calculator, and at the end of the day, the main purpose of declaring absences is to calculate days away, not necessarily show exact travel dates in the case of going to second countries during the same absence. The form doesn't even instruct to show each travel separately in the case of visiting multiple countries, all they ask for is to say where and not when you entered and exited exactly from each place. As pointed by @dpenabill here:



Thanks again, especially to you @dpenabill for the lengthy and complete explanation both here and on the other post.
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/misrepresentation-pr-renewal-travel-histroy.759843/#post-9980229
 
  • Like
Reactions: akbardxb