+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Residency Obligations - Falling short of 730 day RO requirement due to frequent business trips

hpham1.ca

Member
Mar 27, 2023
18
0
Hi all,

I have just submitted my PR card renewal application. The problem is I am falling short of the 730 RO requirement due to frequent business trips.
  • I first landed in Canada in Jan 30, 2019 but only stayed for 2 weeks. Due to the pandemic, I wasn't able to move until December 2021. (By then I already stayed outside of Canada for nearly 3 years).
  • I officially moved to Canada on December 27, 2021 and have lived in Canada since then.
  • However, my job (for a Canadian public university) requires frequent business travels (typically 2 to 4 weeks at a time - about 8 weeks a year). Therefore, I am about 60 days short of the 730 RO requirement.
I'm hoping that the time that I spent outside of Canada on business assignments will be counted towards RO, however, from what I've been reading on the forum, they might not be counted.

My question is, should I withdraw my application? The reason I submitted my application is because I'll have to travel again in April. Now I doubt that my application will be processed by then, and I'm risking being reported for failing to meet the Residency Obligation.

Please, any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you so much.
 

Besram

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2019
251
182
Your business travel will not count as days in Canada for purposes of meeting the residency obligation. You should not have submitted the application because you are running a serious risk of getting reported for not meeting the RO, and at the very least will face extended processing times.

I am unsure if withdrawing at this stage is possible and what the process is. Will let others comment. But yes, if you can withdraw, you should - and only re-submit once you have 730 days (ideally more) in the country. Note that any day at least partially spent in Canada counts as a full day.
 

hpham1.ca

Member
Mar 27, 2023
18
0
Your business travel will not count as days in Canada for purposes of meeting the residency obligation. You should not have submitted the application because you are running a serious risk of getting reported for not meeting the RO, and at the very least will face extended processing times.

I am unsure if withdrawing at this stage is possible and what the process is. Will let others comment. But yes, if you can withdraw, you should - and only re-submit once you have 730 days (ideally more) in the country. Note that any day at least partially spent in Canada counts as a full day.
I have received mixed opinions on business travels. The consensus was the validity of the Canadian business and the nature of the assignment abroad. I guess I can submit a webform to withdraw the application.
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,408
1,464
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Hi all,

I have just submitted my PR card renewal application. The problem is I am falling short of the 730 RO requirement due to frequent business trips.
  • I first landed in Canada in Jan 30, 2019 but only stayed for 2 weeks. Due to the pandemic, I wasn't able to move until December 2021. (By then I already stayed outside of Canada for nearly 3 years).
  • I officially moved to Canada on December 27, 2021 and have lived in Canada since then.
  • However, my job (for a Canadian public university) requires frequent business travels (typically 2 to 4 weeks at a time - about 8 weeks a year). Therefore, I am about 60 days short of the 730 RO requirement.
I'm hoping that the time that I spent outside of Canada on business assignments will be counted towards RO, however, from what I've been reading on the forum, they might not be counted.

My question is, should I withdraw my application? The reason I submitted my application is because I'll have to travel again in April. Now I doubt that my application will be processed by then, and I'm risking being reported for failing to meet the Residency Obligation.

Please, any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you so much.
Maybe not.

Since a travel day (leaving Canada) still counts as a full day in Canada, you will likely gain a few more days in your calculation (unless you already knew this information). Even leaving Canada at 12:01 AM, for example, would still give you full credit as a day in Canada. If you were to take a weekend trip, leaving on a Friday morning and returning late Sunday evening, you would only have one day [Saturday] outside of Canada in terms of R.O. `math'.
 

hpham1.ca

Member
Mar 27, 2023
18
0
Maybe not.

Since a travel day (leaving Canada) still counts as a full day in Canada, you will likely gain a few more days in your calculation (unless you already knew this information). Even leaving Canada at 12:01 AM, for example, would still give you full credit as a day in Canada. If you were to take a weekend trip, leaving on a Friday morning and returning late Sunday evening, you would only have one day [Saturday] outside of Canada in terms of R.O. `math'.
I am aware of this and still about 70 days short if business travel days are not counted.
 

Besram

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2019
251
182
I have received mixed opinions on business travels. The consensus was the validity of the Canadian business and the nature of the assignment abroad. I guess I can submit a webform to withdraw the application.
Perhaps, with the necessary documentation etc. But I would expect your PR application to be at least in non-routine processing and it could take many months for it to be approved, if it ever is.

I would not take the risk. If you have to travel in April and don't have your card by then, suggest you explore options to fly to the US and drive across the border in a private vehicle when you return. As long as you meet your RO by then (and can easily prove it), you won't have any issues at the border besides some potential delays.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,159
8,806
Your business travel will not count as days in Canada for purposes of meeting the residency obligation. You should not have submitted the application because you are running a serious risk of getting reported for not meeting the RO, and at the very least will face extended processing times.
I'm overall not as sure as you about how serious the risk of getting reported is, i.e. while there's some risk, I don't think it's that serious a risk. I think @dpenabill has perhaps better insight into this than most of us.

But extended processing - yes. How long and how extended? No idea. (I absolutely concur with your later point about travelling through the land border.)

Here's my reasoning: OP seems about 70 says short, and wants to travel in April. Right there this means that OP will accumulate ~70 days before departing, so will likely be in compliance by then (*responsibilty for math and checking entirely upon the OP).

This leaves the question of whether they will do the formal report before then. My guess is maybe (probably?) not. The claim for business travel days will already shunt it into the complicated file, which means some delay - possibly those same 70 days, or close to it. Then when someone looks at it - they may have to first evaluate on basis of number of days when the renewal app was received, with/without the business travel days, then decide whether those 'count.' Etc. By then, even if still found lacking, will probably have to recalculate as of the then-current day (at which point OP may be back in compliance). [They could stop the clock by filing the report but again - don't think that'd happen until the machine had ticked over several BMTPs (bureaucratic minimum time periods).]

And at some point, somebody would probably take a look at this and say that if you add up this and that, and even if we were a bit strict and filed the report and all that (extra work, mind), chances are moderately high that it'd be appealed and lost on the basis of some very general H&C grounds (given the smallish non-compliance).

No, my guess is they'd at most ask the OP to pick up the card in Canada at an office, becuase somebody senior's going to say too much work to go the hard route and takes the easy route of making the OP pick up the card. And this kicks the can down the road to where either a) the OP never shows up and can be clearly denied in future, b) OP shows up and gets their card and seems to be residing in Canada and no issue, or c) some other confluence of events and see the bit about 'why do the extra work of a report upfront when it can be overtaken by events anyway?'.

That said, I do not know whether withdrawing hte PR card renewal app will save time and lower risk, or if the info's already been entered and likely to cause some extended processing anyway. (And of course in no event do know 'how extended.')
 
  • Like
Reactions: hpham1.ca

hpham1.ca

Member
Mar 27, 2023
18
0
I'm overall not as sure as you about how serious the risk of getting reported is, i.e. while there's some risk, I don't think it's that serious a risk. I think @dpenabill has perhaps better insight into this than most of us.

But extended processing - yes. How long and how extended? No idea. (I absolutely concur with your later point about travelling through the land border.)

Here's my reasoning: OP seems about 70 says short, and wants to travel in April. Right there this means that OP will accumulate ~70 days before departing, so will likely be in compliance by then (*responsibilty for math and checking entirely upon the OP).

This leaves the question of whether they will do the formal report before then. My guess is maybe (probably?) not. The claim for business travel days will already shunt it into the complicated file, which means some delay - possibly those same 70 days, or close to it. Then when someone looks at it - they may have to first evaluate on basis of number of days when the renewal app was received, with/without the business travel days, then decide whether those 'count.' Etc. By then, even if still found lacking, will probably have to recalculate as of the then-current day (at which point OP may be back in compliance). [They could stop the clock by filing the report but again - don't think that'd happen until the machine had ticked over several BMTPs (bureaucratic minimum time periods).]

And at some point, somebody would probably take a look at this and say that if you add up this and that, and even if we were a bit strict and filed the report and all that (extra work, mind), chances are moderately high that it'd be appealed and lost on the basis of some very general H&C grounds (given the smallish non-compliance).

No, my guess is they'd at most ask the OP to pick up the card in Canada at an office, becuase somebody senior's going to say too much work to go the hard route and takes the easy route of making the OP pick up the card. And this kicks the can down the road to where either a) the OP never shows up and can be clearly denied in future, b) OP shows up and gets their card and seems to be residing in Canada and no issue, or c) some other confluence of events and see the bit about 'why do the extra work of a report upfront when it can be overtaken by events anyway?'.

That said, I do not know whether withdrawing hte PR card renewal app will save time and lower risk, or if the info's already been entered and likely to cause some extended processing anyway. (And of course in no event do know 'how extended.')
Thank you for the input! Should I or should I not withdraw the application. I submitted the webform but will call IRCC tomorrow.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
@hpham1.ca . . . I will get to particular questions, like whether to withdraw (if you do, that probably would not change whether inadmissibility proceedings for a RO breach happen), but first . . . are you actually in breach?

BIGGEST RISK: If you are actually in breach, your biggest risk would arise if you leave Canada while in RO breach.

But the main question appears to be whether or not you are in breach . . .

UPFRONT:

Whether you are in breach of the Residency Obligation appears to depend on whether your time outside Canada attendant a "job," a job "for a Canadian public university," qualifies for the working-abroad credit allowed pursuant to the exception prescribed by Section 28(2)(a)(iii) IRPA, here, which in relevant part provides that credit is allowed for days the PR is "outside Canada employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province."

The fact that the travel outside Canada is labeled "business travel," or "business trip," does not determine if the credit is available; this label will NOT illuminate much if anything (typically nothing at all) about whether that time abroad qualifies for this RO credit.

Your business travel will not count as days in Canada for purposes of meeting the residency obligation.
In older (quite old) discussions about this credit there were some claims, UNFOUNDED claims, that time abroad on "business trips" will not get the working-abroad credit because the time outside Canada was pursuant to a "business trip." Not clear if @Besram is reviving this claim (which, again, is unfounded) or expressing a conclusion based on your particular circumstances.

There is, however, not enough information here to reach that conclusion, that your time abroad on business for the university will not count.

But neither is there enough shared here to conclude it will count. It is NOT the label "business travel" that matters. Some business travel will qualify. Some business trips will not qualify.

What matters is whether the PR is employed full time by a qualified Canadian employer (quite sure that a Canadian public university meets the criteria, assuming it is the university who is your employer), and temporarily assigned (sent or directed by the employer) to do full time work outside Canada (even if that is to engage in what many would describe as "business meetings" or such), while in effect retaining their position in Canada, a position which according to the assignment, and the employment relationship, provides the PR will return to their position here, in Canada, when that assignment is completed. Again, some business trips will meet the criteria, so get credit. Some will not.

There is a lengthy, in-depth discussion of this in the topic "Working Abroad RO credit, including "business trips;" an update" (update as of the time of that discussion, several years ago now) which is here.

Claiming the RO Credit for Time Abroad in Employ of Qualified Canadian Employer:

In the PR card application, Question 5.2, if you believed your time outside Canada was pursuant to your employment as described in that question, you should have checked [X] Yes.

Then, in the chart for question 5.5, where you reported time spent outside Canada, you should have checked [A] in the drop down box in the column for stating "Reason for absence" for those time periods you were outside working for the university. Then, in addition to submitting two pieces of evidence showing you were residing in Canada, you should have also included the "proof" (supporting documents) described in the Appendix to the guide for PR card applications, in the section titled "Situation A. Employment outside Canada," including in particular a letter by an official in the university confirming your employment and details of the assignment outside Canada, and other details as described in the guide.

If you did this properly, including completely and accurately filling in dates in the travel history chart, in question 5.5, the form automatically calculated three totals:
Total time spent outside Canada: ####​
Total time spent outside Canada due to reasons A, B, or C: ##​
Total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B, or C: ####​

Even though the total time spent outside Canada is more than 1095, as long as the total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B, or C (for you it is reason A) is LESS than 1095, you have at least made an application that on its face appears to meet the RO. That matters.

If, in the application you actually made, the latter total is more than 1095, showing you are in breach of the RO, you should have responded to question 5.7 providing what we typically call H&C reasons why you should be allowed to keep PR status despite being in breach of the RO. For this the application form itself erroneously refers to "next question" (yeah, we all very much love IRCC for its meticulous precision, sigh) which would be question 5.6, but H&C reasons are entered in response to 5.7, and additional supporting documents for this need to be submitted with the application.


Should I or should I not withdraw the application.
Withdrawing the application is not likely to change what IRCC does. Well, IRCC for sure won't proceed to approve the application and deliver a PR card if you withdraw. But a withdrawal is not likely to affect whether IRCC proceeds with an inadmissibility report. Your application put your admissibility into issue, and once that is done the horse, as some might say, is out of the barn and on the run (with exceptions of course).

If you followed the instructions, properly identified the time abroad in the employ of the university (assuming it was in the employ of the university), included the additional proof prescribed in the instructions, and the total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B, or C (for you reason A) is LESS than 1095, there should be little reason to worry. Depending on the particular employment relationship and assignment details, IRCC might not allow the working-abroad credit, but by the time IRCC is assessing your case and the claim for working-abroad credit you are probably close enough to meeting the RO based on days in Canada, if not actually meeting it, the LIKELY worst case scenario is, as some here have cautioned, non-routine processing resulting in a significant delay getting a new PR card. On the other hand, even if IRCC allows the working-abroad credit, there could be non-routine processing and delays just in IRCC's examination of that.

In fact, you appear to be close enough to meeting the RO, assuming you are staying in Canada in the meantime, the risk of inadmissibility proceedings should be relatively low even if you did not make the claim for the working-abroad credit in the application. That said, when a PR is in breach of the Residency Obligation, there is always some risk that a PR card application will trigger inadmissibility proceedings. This risk varies depending on the particular details, with how big the breach is probably being the dominant factor, but other factors such as how well settled in Canada the PR is NOW can have a lot of influence.

And if you stay in Canada long enough to be in RO compliance before they actually open the application and start processing, the risk of inadmissibility is likely so low as to be near none. In particular, even if at the time the PR card application is made you are in breach, if you have stayed in Canada long enough to meet the RO before a 44(1) Report is prepared, you have cured the RO breach, no breach no inadmissibility determination. That is, you continue to get credit toward meeting the RO after applying for a PR card, at least up to the date a 44(1) Report is prepared.

There is a wrinkle here, however, bringing up A Not Likely But Possible Risk . . .

If you did not claim the credit for days working abroad, by not checking the working abroad reason in the question 5.5 chart, such that the total time outside Canada excluding reasons A, B, or C is more than 1095 days, on its face the application shows a RO breach and that could be enough to trigger a 44(1) Report based on that date, the date the application was made. No credit for days in Canada after that date. There have only been isolated reports of this happening (but this includes one in officially published IAD decisions). And those have involved breaches far bigger than yours. Probably a low risk, but nonetheless it has happened so it is possible it will happen. (But a decent lawyer should turn this around in an appeal, if necessary.)
 
Last edited:

Ronnie1970

Star Member
May 1, 2021
117
22
I applied for PR renewal in Sept 23 under H&C as my days were short to met RO. Got my Par card today in the mail with a 5 year expiry. So to all those who have not met RO if you have a genuine reason with documents to proove, they look at it compassionately. Don't loose hope.
 

fahad0415

Newbie
Dec 3, 2023
2
0
I applied for PR renewal in Sept 23 under H&C as my days were short to met RO. Got my Par card today in the mail with a 5 year expiry. So to all those who have not met RO if you have a genuine reason with documents to proove, they look at it compassionately. Don't loose hope.
How many days were u short ?